Mechanist needed the skill floor raising, not a DPS nerf.

[Crit.5123]

I read these forums everyday but never feel compelled to post anything....until now. For context on my views, im not new to the game and have around 4k hours and do complete end game content each week (raids + strikes), but stay away from PvP and WvW mostly so my opinions are mostly PvE end game related.

 

The community currently seems split, half seem to love the Mechanicst, and the other half hate that it exists. I personally think it’s a fantastic addition to the game. Is it overrepresented in raids, yes it it, but that’s because it has been given the ability to perform a heal role, an alacdps role and just pure dps. Virtuoso can smash 32k+ with very few buttons but it can't heal or run support so you see much less of them.

 

I personally fall into the category of 'I love the Mechanist' as i only have partial movement with my left hand. This build has literally changed the game for me, will these changes destroy it completly, no they wont, imo though it's the wrong apporach. But enough of me personally let's talk numbers.

 

The Mechanist can 'bench 35k-37k depending on where you look, i have not seen a single person get close to this in a raid (yes i don't run with elitists but still...). I usually see somewhere between 26k-31k from people playing pure DPS power mech, with the occasional person pushing around 33-34k. I myself can bench 32k at the robot :).

 

If the new philosophy is to not aim the game to the small 1% who can smash out DPS like it's nothing then why are the dps nerfs happening? If the estimates are true and a 4k loss is to be believed then 'most' people are going to now be around 22k-27k. 22k is getting on the very low side of what many people consider 'ok' for end game runs and with no option to up the dps with skill its going to be stuck at this level.

 

If everyone was rocking into a raid and hitting 37k then yes it would need a dps hit, but that is not the case,  What they should be looking at in my opinion is upping the skill floor. Adding the ability to set the mech skills to auto was a very bad idea, these should be removed, and maybe give rifle 1 an auto attack chain instead of how it sits currently so it requires more effort and concentration from the player to hit the bigger numbers, these could just be for a start before looking at other ways to increase the 'rotation' difficulty more. These changes alone would probably shave 3-4k dps off for people going full Li but still allow everyone else who loves the build the chance to play 'properly'. This would then leave room at the top of the DPS meter for people to bring their SLB or BS and still feel like their skill has been rewarded.

 

 

Just my 2 cents on the current state of the spec,

Edited September 20, 2022 by Crit.5123

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I've literally seen 35k from Machinists in Fractals. Fractals. The thing to understand is Machinist doesn't just have an LI build, it also has a full rotation build (though rarely played), that gives it enough extra DPS to almost always come out on top of every other class in the game in real situations.

 

The problem is, always has been, and always will be the Mech being 40%+ of your DPS. There's no way to raise the skill floor with that without making it as ineffective as a Ranger pet.

[Mell.4873]

I think that is the Devs plan, the incoming nerf shouldn't effect the over all DPS of good players but will curb the problem with LI build players. I'm sure in the next balance patch they will introduce something to make the mech more rewarding for good players.

[McWelp.1723]

5 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I've literally seen 35k from Machinists in Fractals. Fractals. The thing to understand is Machinist doesn't just have an LI build, it also has a full rotation build (though rarely played), that gives it enough extra DPS to almost always come out on top of every other class in the game in real situations.

 

The problem is, always has been, and always will be the Mech being 40%+ of your DPS. There's no way to raise the skill floor with that without making it as ineffective as a Ranger pet.

 

"nerf nerf! dont even try anything else!"

 

Theres loads of ways to raise skill floor of Mech, even if the robot would do higher percentge of your dps. Requiring rotation for your pet, micromanagement like positioning, timing of skills, etc..

 

But community mentality at the moment is that it just needs to be nerfed. Period.

[Crit.5123]

52 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I've literally seen 35k from Machinists in Fractals.

 

Fractals is a slightly different animal as you have the 15% dmg increase from Fractal Offensive Potions

[MrForz.1953]

2 hours ago, McWelp.1723 said:

 

"nerf nerf! dont even try anything else!"

 

Theres loads of ways to raise skill floor of Mech, even if the robot would do higher percentge of your dps. Requiring rotation for your pet, micromanagement like positioning, timing of skills, etc..

 

But community mentality at the moment is that it just needs to be nerfed. Period.

Community mentality is divided between requests for nerfs, that the spec remains easier to play and that it should be more complex. With accessibility in mind, the changes will have rifle mech still be a good, easy dps build without absolutely destroying Holosmith as a whole with absurd damage numbers while being an excellent support and healer. I don't like it myself, but since it's apparently such a big deal that the spec should somehow play itself the changes have to come from somewhere else.

[Lynx.9058]

A majority of people enjoying mechanist right now are enjoying it BECAUSE it's an easy class to play.

I'm sick and tired of piano builds.  My hands can't take it anymore.  I'm sick of having to put 99% of my focus on my action bar and tracking cooldowns and having to run a perfect rotation just to get by.  I want to actually see the battlefield, pay attention to what the enemy is doing, utilize and/or avoid mechanics as intended.

The fact that a small elitist portion of this community wants every single class to be a high intensity min/max build, despite the fact that they are far outnumbered by casual players who are sick of those builds, is the real problem here.

[Crit.5123]

2 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

A majority of people enjoying mechanist right now are enjoying it BECAUSE it's an easy class to play.

I'm sick and tired of piano builds.  My hands can't take it anymore.  I'm sick of having to put 99% of my focus on my action bar and tracking cooldowns and having to run a perfect rotation just to get by.  I want to actually see the battlefield, pay attention to what the enemy is doing, utilize and/or avoid mechanics as intended.

The fact that a small elitist portion of this community wants every single class to be a high intensity min/max build, despite the fact that they are far outnumbered by casual players who are sick of those builds, is the real problem here.

 

I pretty much agree with this, i do think they went a little too far with how easy Mechanist is though. Adding an auto attack chain and removing the mech auto's would not put the build out of reach of most people who want to go full Li.

 

Most people going full Li build now take Throw Mine instead of Grenade Kit, leaving room to add some buffs to grenade kit if they stick with the nerfs that are incoming. This would raise the dps output for people wanting to perform the spec to a higher level but still keep a Li build available for others, whilst at the same time helping out Holo and Scrapper a bit.

 

Adding flat nerfs now is just the wrong approach. And another example of the balance team doing the same as the previous one and going with quick kneejerk reactions to things that have not been thought through properly, instead of waiting for the full PvE balance that is coming in November to 'adjust' it properly.

[SentriX.3209]

The difference is that Mechanist can maintain constant DPS as if it were hitting a benching golem during fights, while other classes actually have to move and stop DPSing to do mechanics, not to mention it has a fully stacked kit. So a constant 32-34k > 40k spikes.

 

I'm playing a Power Mech and I can see this all too well everyday while doing fractals, etc. It's just too good for what it does and the nerf is waranted. Even after the nerfs it will be an amazing LI class to play and you won't feel the change unless you're using ArcDps.

 

Though they could rework it to bring the floor up, but that would kill the point of it being a "brain-dead" class imo.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Liisjak.4509

[coro.3176]

Suggestions to raise the skill floor

• Have the mech take more damage, so the mechanist has to pay attention to where it's standing and move it out of boss mechanics, or heal it.
• Nerf the mech's direct damage output, but give it back via combo opportunities. Eg. The mechanist needs to pay attention and remember to combo on the mech's fields, or have the mech skills combo on the mechanist's fields.

It need not require more intensity, but it should require some skill.

Edited September 20, 2022 by coro.3176

[AliamRationem.5172]

13 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think that is the Devs plan, the incoming nerf shouldn't effect the over all DPS of good players but will curb the problem with LI build players. I'm sure in the next balance patch they will introduce something to make the mech more rewarding for good players.

Of course it will impact the DPS of good players.  How could it not? But that is appropriate as the spec is overperforming at all levels.

[Obtena.7952]

14 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think that is the Devs plan, the incoming nerf shouldn't effect the over all DPS of good players but will curb the problem with LI build players. I'm sure in the next balance patch they will introduce something to make the mech more rewarding for good players.

UM ... I don't see it way at all. The Oct patch nerfs are on the mech. That's definitely impacting ALL mechanist builds, even those of the 'good' players who are typically using the impacted traits. 

If Anet wanted to target LI power rifle builds to differentiate one button vs. rotation players, they would fix things like the EXCEPTIONAL implementation of rifle AA. There was no reason rifle AA couldn't have been a chain ... 1 and 2 being 'regular' and 3 being the grenade. In fact, that's what I was expecting to see. 

Another example is making F skills auto attack on CD. Just another change that does the opposite of rewarding good players. 

Nah, everything I see happening is just an across the board reduction of mech and mainly focused on the support build, not the LI power rifle one.  Frankly, if you think about the typical player using LI builds ... probably don't even care their DPS is impacted. I doubt we will see much of a reduction of people using the LI version. I have no doubt that any damage to this subset of mechanist is collateral. I think the main target is the support builds.

As for the topic of the thread; the floor is fine, especially if you believe power rifle mech performance isn't an accident. I'm almost at the point where it seems like we need a mechanic that rewards hitting specific tactical combat goals to reward high performance players, like ... successfully dodging X in a row or something like that. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

UM ... I don't see it way at all. The Oct patch nerfs are on the mech. That's definitely impacting ALL mechanist builds, even those of the 'good' players who are typically using the impacted traits. 

If Anet wanted to target LI power rifle builds to differentiate one button vs. rotation players, they would fix things like the EXCEPTIONAL implementation of rifle AA. There was no reason rifle AA couldn't have been a chain ... 1 and 2 being 'regular' and 3 being the grenade. In fact, that's what I was expecting to see. 

Another example is making F skills auto attack on CD. Just another change that does the opposite of rewarding good players. 

Nah, everything I see happening is just an across the board reduction of mech and mainly focused on the support build, not the LI power rifle one.  Frankly, if you think about the typical player using LI builds ... probably don't even care their DPS is impacted. I doubt we will see much of a reduction of people using the LI version. I have no doubt that any damage to this subset of mechanist is collateral. I think the main target is the support builds.

As for the topic of the thread; the floor is fine, especially if you believe power rifle mech performance isn't an accident. I'm almost at the point where it seems like we need a mechanic that rewards hitting specific tactical combat goals to reward high performance players, like ... successfully dodging X in a row or something like that. 

This patch is more a band aid, I'm sure they have a better alterative in the works.
The main nerf is the interaction with Aim-Assisted Rocket and Mech Arms: Jade Cannons, but if you trait in Explosive Temper and run Grenade Kit I'm sure you can make up for the damage (unless that is still lower but who knows yet).
This also works for the lower ferocity.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Alcatraznc.3869]

People want piano build to do more damage than LI build but the truth is they already do more damage. 

 

Build like condi untamed, power bladesworn currently reaching 40k+ DPS are good example. They are high APM build doing high damage.

 

But the real issue is not Pmech doing too much damage it is that not every piano build cannot reach the same level of DPS. Weaver condi is arguably harder to use than condition untamed and yet, condi untame can reach 42k DPS while condi weaver barely reaches 38k despite having more rotation.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Alcatraznc.3869
typo

[Wolfshade.9251]

Piano builds should be more rewarding to play than LI builds. Not saying LI builds should get deleted completely. But at least reign them back to the point where they do less damage than builds that require effort.

Knock mech down to 32k by reducing autoattack frequency/power coefficients or by reducing the damage output of the mech. Make it so that a dedicated Holosmith or Scrapper will do more damage than a toddler smashing 111 on Mechanist.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

39 minutes ago, Wolfshade.9251 said:

Knock mech down to 32k

 

If you put it that low then you may as well bring a support build 

[Kuma.1503]

On 9/20/2022 at 3:50 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I've literally seen 35k from Machinists in Fractals. Fractals. The thing to understand is Machinist doesn't just have an LI build, it also has a full rotation build (though rarely played), that gives it enough extra DPS to almost always come out on top of every other class in the game in real situations.

 

The problem is, always has been, and always will be the Mech being 40%+ of your DPS. There's no way to raise the skill floor with that without making it as ineffective as a Ranger pet.

I've seen 35k from a lot of classes in fractals. I've seen upwards of 40k+ from Soulbeast and DH because of how bursty these classes can be when played well. 

Keep in mind that numbers are going to be inflated there. We have pots, AR converted into additional stats, shorter boss phases, and additional mobs which add cleave dps into the mix.  All of which make your numbers look very inflated if you can pull off a proper opener. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[PrinceValentine.9320]

There's a thread on the Necro section that mentioned Mechanist being helpful for people with disabilities. So I think Anet should leave this spec alone so people with disability will be able to enjoy this game too. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by PrinceValentine.9320

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

14 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I've seen 35k from a lot of classes in fractals. I've seen upwards of 40k+ from Soulbeast and DH because of how bursty these classes can be when played well.

dont think t4 pugs have seen any phase numbers above 30k since cfb was run into the ground

all this nerf does is reduce pug efficiency, holo is still meme tier, next in line cvirt is just as dumb despite requiring a few extra buttons

[McWelp.1723]

21 hours ago, Wolfshade.9251 said:

Piano builds should be more rewarding to play than LI builds. Not saying LI builds should get deleted completely. But at least reign them back to the point where they do less damage than builds that require effort.

Knock mech down to 32k by reducing autoattack frequency/power coefficients or by reducing the damage output of the mech. Make it so that a dedicated Holosmith or Scrapper will do more damage than a toddler smashing 111 on Mechanist.

 

Maybe so, but can be argued how big the gap between LI and Piano should be. IMO, not that big (maybe 10-15%). Normal people could have their fun whatever content they are doing and tryhards could still get their bigger numbers.

 

My opinion also is that every single class should have viable LI build. That would make the game way healthier.

[Obtena.7952]

On 9/20/2022 at 8:20 PM, Mell.4873 said:

This patch is more a band aid, I'm sure they have a better alterative in the works.
The main nerf is the interaction with Aim-Assisted Rocket and Mech Arms: Jade Cannons, but if you trait in Explosive Temper and run Grenade Kit I'm sure you can make up for the damage (unless that is still lower but who knows yet).
This also works for the lower ferocity.

Yeah ... I wouldn't make that assumption at all or even in the case where it's true, it's not unrealistic that 'bandaids' are there for a LONG time (looking at you 300s CDs). 

I mean, I'm not debating how to make up for that lost damage. That's not the point I was making. I don't know how it's relevant as a response to me. The point here is that impacting the damage of LI builds doesn't massively curb it's use because I'm betting most LI players don't really care if they do 35, 30 or even 15K ... DPS is not the reason they choose that build in the first place. That build is popular primarily because it's gameplay focus is not on a DPS rotation. That's why raising the floor of this build isn't what we should be doing here. 

For me, the thing that should happen here is a greater DPS differentiation between the one-button use and a rotation. That doesn't really exist on power rifle, even though it could. What would be great is if Anet chimed in with their explanation of how this LI power rifle build fits in with their vision of the game because until we get that, it's simply people assuming things and it's hard to discuss what it should do.  

Edited September 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mell.4873]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah ... I wouldn't make that assumption at all or even in the case where it's true, it's not unrealistic that 'bandaids' are there for a LONG time (looking at you 300s CDs). 

I mean, I'm not debating how to make up for that lost damage. That's not the point I was making. I don't know how it's relevant as a response to me. The point here is that impacting the damage of LI builds doesn't massively curb it's use because I'm betting most LI players don't really care if they do 35, 30 or even 15K ... DPS is not the reason they choose that build in the first place. That build is popular primarily because it's gameplay focus is not on a DPS rotation. That's why raising the floor of this build isn't what we should be doing here. 

For me, the thing that should happen here is a greater DPS differentiation between the one-button use and a rotation. That doesn't really exist on power rifle, even though it could. What would be great is if Anet chimed in with their explanation of how this LI power rifle build fits in with their vision of the game because until we get that, it's simply people assuming things and it's hard to discuss what it should do.  

I'm pretty sure they want the build left in the game, they just want to lower the high benchmarks. A portion of the LI players does use it due to getting more DPS than whatever they were using before (not hard to see).

Edited September 23, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Wolfb.7025]

Really hard to raise the skill floor of a class made with the intention of lowering the skill floor.

 

The ferocity nerf on next patch is a good start, I wish they removed the explotion property on rifle1, that way autoattack only people won't get free 10 stacks of Explosive Temper and those who wants to keep the actual DPS on mech will have to get stacks using kits.

[anbujackson.9564]

3 hours ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

Really hard to raise the skill floor of a class made with the intention of lowering the skill floor.

 

The ferocity nerf on next patch is a good start, I wish they removed the explotion property on rifle1, that way autoattack only people won't get free 10 stacks of Explosive Temper and those who wants to keep the actual DPS on mech will have to get stacks using kits.

This trait isnt used on mech, you take AAR. What you wouldnt get for free is big boomer.

Edit: Removing any explosion from rifle is actually a very good idea indeed. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Lynx.9058]

7 hours ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

Really hard to raise the skill floor of a class made with the intention of lowering the skill floor.

 

The ferocity nerf on next patch is a good start, I wish they removed the explotion property on rifle1, that way autoattack only people won't get free 10 stacks of Explosive Temper and those who wants to keep the actual DPS on mech will have to get stacks using kits.

I'd rather not have to use kits, thanks.  Kits are poorly designed in the first place,  and they're cumbersome and annoying to utilize.  They still can't even add a proper auto attack for grenade kit, and you want us to rely on it to make the spec work?

 

For once in the entire history of the game engineers have a weapon that doesn't absolutely suck, and here everyone wants to nerf it right away.  Stockholm syndrome much?