Suggestion - World of Ruin

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

Okay, there has been a lot of discussion on challenging solo content versus instanced group content.  I'm proposing a solution that I think would help solve several problems at once:

 

1) Add challenging end-game for solo/open world players.
2) Add significantly to the game whilst keeping resourcing as low as possible.
3) Not annoy people who just want to explore/get story as we saw with Heart of Thorns maps, and subsequent expansions being easier.
4) Possibly add a route to PvE legendary armour.

 

Basic idea is to add a "World of Ruin". This isn't a new idea at all, but I think this warrants discussion now, given the current emphasis on challenging endgame for solo players.

 

Unlock requirements
- Level 80
- Completed main personal story (on account)
- Completed core maps (on account)
- Own End of Dragons (to make that more appealing as an expansion)

 

Basic overview

The broad idea here is "survival".  You should feel overwhelmed and wary of approaching enemies.  Obviously tweaked to be fun, but as a rough picture:

- All core Tyria maps, but in separate instances, and slightly different aesthetically (see below)
- No gliding/mounts (This is partly for challenge, partly for keeping the main maps popular) 
- All maps upscaled to 80+ and mobs ranked up (all normal mobs now vets, all vets now champs...)
- Mistlock instabilities added that randomise every 15 minutes
- Difficult enemies brought in from other areas as regular random spawns (e.g. HoT enemies in Maguuma)
- Lava etc. is instakill
- Swimming underwater adds a debuff every few seconds that gradually kills you if you don't surface

 

Aesthetics
- Permanently night time (ideally darker than usual)
- Whatever weather effects can be easily implemented (e.g. bring the Bjora Marches storm into all snowy areas).
- Adjust the colouring on textures if possible to do easily (I picture Queensdale as basically grey, except for fires and lights, Maguuma as more purple)

 

Potential extra work (if popular)
- Add mechanics to World Bosses and mobs
- Change the Heart Vendors/Events to reflect the world's darker tone
- Add physical objects/assets from other regions (e.g. more thorns in Maguuma)
- Add a Mastery Track to regain a few abilities.  I think the Jackal would be good thematically, and also not being game breaking.

 

Rewards
- Basic rewards largely the same as normal mode (vets shouldn't just live in this mode)
- Add unique skins as drops
- Copy/paste achievements from Core, but with "In ruin mode" - particularly good for JPs and other things made redundant by masteries.
- (Maybe but not necessary) Full map completion grants the precursor armour for a single weight class of legendary armour (other things require e.g. the tokens from world bosses etc discussed in other threads)

 

The main counter argument I see is that this would spread the player base thinly, but I don't think this would be an issue.  (1) Because expansions are very similar in this regard, and not a huge problem.  (2) This mode would only take people already very familiar with Open World, so likely elsewhere anyway.  (3) This game would actively encourage grouping, I expect LFGs for trains becoming a popular thing.

 

So there it is.  Challenging content that is playable solo or in a group, without preventing casual players from seeing story or map exploration, or detracting from instanced content elsewhere.  Let the friendly and productive discussion commence 🙂

[vares.8457]

no thanks 

[Strider Pj.2193]

How about we spend dev time and money on fixing issues with end game group content that have existed for years since this is of course an MMO.  
 

We have open world for solo players.  If you need more challenge learn how to solo raids and fractals.  

[kharmin.7683]

No.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Or we could just undo all the powercreep and nerfs to open world that have made it a joke instead? If all your military has is nukes, you don't just keep adding more nukes, you get rid of them.

 

Pull back PvE damage in open-world and story mode by 30% and restore the original monster AI. Keep the current DPS levels for Fractals, raids, strike missions, and lv80 dungeons, but improve downscaling so higher-level players are closer to lower-level players in open-world and sub-lv80 dungeons.

 

That would be a start, at least.

 

(In the past I've argued towards removing the levelling process entirely, with all maps, gear, etc. being lv80, and players just immediately starting on Pact mastery line during Personal Story, but..)

Edited September 28, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[yoni.7015]

It’s a no from me as well. 

[Strider Pj.2193]

6 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Or we could just undo all the powercreep and nerfs to open world that have made it a joke instead? If all your military has is nukes, you don't just keep adding more nukes, you get rid of them.

 

Pull back PvE damage in open-world and story mode by 30% and restore the original monster AI. Keep the current DPS levels for Fractals, raids, strike missions, and lv80 dungeons, but improve downscaling so higher-level players are closer to lower-level players in open-world and sub-lv80 dungeons.

 

That would be a start, at least.

 

(In the past I've argued towards removing the levelling process entirely, with all maps, gear, etc. being lv80, and players just immediately starting on Pact mastery line during Personal Story, but..)

That would be great, but they already struggle with skill splits for the three modes they have….   And I am not dogging them about it, just being realistic.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

36 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Or we could just undo all the powercreep and nerfs to open world that have made it a joke instead? If all your military has is nukes, you don't just keep adding more nukes, you get rid of them.

 

Pull back PvE damage in open-world and story mode by 30% and restore the original monster AI. Keep the current DPS levels for Fractals, raids, strike missions, and lv80 dungeons, but improve downscaling so higher-level players are closer to lower-level players in open-world and sub-lv80 dungeons.

 

That would be a start, at least.

 

(In the past I've argued towards removing the levelling process entirely, with all maps, gear, etc. being lv80, and players just immediately starting on Pact mastery line during Personal Story, but..)

Thank you for the substantive response 🙂

 

I think that it's too late to undo powercreep and nerfs, which is why I'm suggesting a way to split this out and make it "new".  That way the very casual players are happy because that isn't going away, but the players who want more challenge also get something to engage them (and in a way that is packaged in a more interesting way, but at low resource cost).

 

Though I'm not sure I emphasised well enough that this change isn't just "make existing enemies harder".  The new swimming mechanics etc. are designed to make the world feel much more dangerous.  The random spawns should be the key content, which is much more watercooler talk emphasised e.g. "I was halfway through a hero point fight and then Mossman turned up!" or a group barely making it through an event because a bunch of pocket raptors turned up. (Also, from a more business focussed perspective, more interesting for streamers and reaction videos.)

 

The point of this idea is that it would make old content feel new and fresh, without creating new maps that casual players can't experience.

Edited September 28, 2022 by CrashTestAuto.9108

[costepj.5120]

At this stage in the game's lifespan we probably need fewer maps not more. Splitting the population into a set of parallel instances is just going to make everything feel more empty.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

12 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

At this stage in the game's lifespan we probably need fewer maps not more. Splitting the population into a set of parallel instances is just going to make everything feel more empty.

As I mentioned, I think this is the strongest argument against this.  But I think generally adding more maps is going to happen, or at least be wanted.  This is at least a low resource way of doing it, and without pulling all the more casual players out at the same time.

 

Phrased differently, given the choice of the devs spend time building a load of assets for another face roll Living World map, or spend less time on this (which they can advertise as hardcore content and would actually provide 25 "new" maps for the players who wanted it), which would you prefer?

[costepj.5120]

1 minute ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Phrased differently, given the choice of the devs spend time building a load of assets for another face roll Living World map, or spend less time on this (which they can advertise as hardcore content and would actually provide 25 "new" maps for the players who wanted it), which would you prefer?

I'll take one new interesting map over 25 clones any day. I spend most of my time in LW or exapnsion maps; Sandswept Isles is my favourite.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

9 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

I'll take one new interesting map over 25 clones any day. I spend most of my time in LW or exapnsion maps; Sandswept Isles is my favourite.

Fair enough 🙂  I'd definitely prefer to have a reason to go through the core maps again (more interesting fights/new aesthetic/new rewards), but totally understand the preference!

[Embered.5089]

This sounds like a fun idea. I don't think that there is any reason for the devs to want to implement it in reality, but for the sake of fun, let's pretend that they decide to. Here's some changes that I'd tack on:

- Since it's purely another game mode and has nothing to do with story, do not force the unlock requirements to include story completion or EoD expansion. I would argue that there shouldn't be any unlock requirements at all, so that people can level up through "hard mode" if they wanted to. There should be a warning that the World of Ruin is not the canon though, and that story cannot be accessed through it. I say this because the story takes part in the open world, and it would break immersion to be teleported back and forth between normal Tyria and ruined Tyria.

- No Mistlock shenanigans. This would only be annoying. If I'm talking to a player that I randomly met in a jp and the pushy instability turns on, then I'd accidentally kill my new friend by pushing him off of the jp. Oops, friend lost.

- Each map is themed in its own way, and it's core tyria maps only, so there shouldn't be mobs from other maps appearing in your current map. I understand that it could be like mobs are trickling in from other parts of the world, but the themes of each map would be broken. Even having HoT mobs trickle into Maguuma--those are HoT mobs in a core tyrian map. If this gamemode is available to f2p players (because I said no EoD requirement), it wouldn't make sense unless it's used as an expansion advertisement, and even then, it'd be a spoiler.

- If it's permanently night time, this would drastically affect event timers. Some nighttime events rely on the daytime events happening first, and some daytime events only make sense if it happens during daytime. Thus, would you suggest that there's no events at all, or only standalone events that work during nighttime or work regardless of the time?

- There should be few vendors and no hearts. Just like DE is its own ruined map, and thus there's no people left to be merchants for us, a World of Ruin should have few merchants trying to do business. There's no farms to save, so no hearts. There will still need to be some NPCs that sell gear and provide bank access and etc., but only the absolute minimum number of merchants needed to play through the World of Ruin without leaving the gamemode should be provided, and only because some people might want to level to 80 through it. If the level 80 restriction were to stay, then there should be no NPC services at all, since the ruined world would function similar to a massive dungeon.

- I am confused as to why you're suggesting a jackal mastery track when you said "no mounts" before. I know that being used to mounts makes you forget how much faster than walking they are, but a jackal would make core tyria way too easy. I did core tyria and HoT before mounts existed. There is absolutely no need for mounts in the ruined world. Also, a jackal can be more powerful than a raptor. Jackals can continuously teleport mid-air and turn sharply mid-teleport. That's pretty game-breaking. I was actually going to suggest that there's only one waypoint per map. Otherwise, it's not any harder than normal tyria. The ease of getting around makes the game soooo much easier.

- Loot from any mob should be nerfed. That's right, nerfed. Maybe even nonexistent. Otherwise, people who can already solo strikes would just farm the ruined world and tank the economy. It would be way too much of a treasure trove.

- There should only be new achievements for things that can only be done in the ruined world. A jumping puzzle doesn't get harder simply because the walls are gray. If there were mobs placed around the jp, that'd be different. Being attacked makes your speed and jump distance shorter.

- Any World of Ruin-only rewards should be purely cosmetic. Otherwise, you'll make people angry. I don't want to go into why people will be angry, but know that an optional, purely-for-fun, exploration/survival-focused gamemode that's merely a variation of an existing gamemode, should not provide an advantage in loot or rewards.

So, there would be a lot of changes.

 

Lastly, I'd like to mention that I personally would never level up through this gamemode. I might explore it once for the novelty, but I'd never seriously play through it. It reminds me of Ironman from Runescape, with ESO's depressing aesthetic. I tried Ironman and ESO for 10 minutes each and quit (I loved non-Ironman Runescape 1 though. Sadly, Runescape 1 doesn't exist anymore. Only Oldschool and Runescape 3 exist now). When I said that this is a fun idea, I meant that it's fun as a thought exercise. I can see some people enjoying it, and some World of Ruin-themed skins might be nice, but I truly cannot see this happening on such a large scale. It is basically nothing more than a glorified, massive, open-world dungeon. I would, as the others have said, prefer if the devs focused their efforts on other problems.

[Warscythes.9307]

Sounds like a call back to GW1's vanquish which was well liked.

 

I don't want to talk about the details but rather the general direction and the potential problems.

 

The idea I would assume is to create challenging open world content without spending too much resource on creating entirely new maps. GW2 has a lot of maps, many are effectively abandoned because the reward is not interesting or it doesn't have a good meta to run.

 

I agree with the previous post one of the biggest problem will be splitting the population. I do think that this can be mitigated via having a select pool of maps in rotation. So week 1 will be 3 maps in Cantha/Tyria/Magumma etc etc and this means it would not split the entire game map but rather just a select few.

 

I think the biggest issue aside from this is going to be A) Rewards B) Is it actually going to be fun?

 

If you allow zerging, then the increased difficulty would not really do much. This to me feels like it has to be forced into a limited headcount per map, so basically like tower of nightmares but for the entire map instead. I don't know if you ever tried to lowman dragonstorm before, but the feel is much different between effectively sleeping in public squad vs 5men it in private. Is still not very difficult, but it need enough coordination that is not literal faceroll as well.

 

I also think that if you just buff the enemies and increase the reward, is not going to be fun because what will very likely happen is that people will figure out the best way to camp event XYZ or enemy XYZ and it will just be another farm. I think if this ever comes into consideration, it need to be encouraging the players to "beat the map" so to speak. Maybe events don't respawn, maybe if enemies never respawn when killed as well and you beat it when you complete 90% of the map events and kill 90% of the map's enemy sort of thing. Again a callback to GW1's vanquish.

 

I don't even want to get into what the rewards could be because that has always been a pain the kitten. I do think that the hardest thing will be how do you actually make this fun in the first place because just stat boost enemies won't really do that much more fun I feel.

[Arnox.5128]

I think this is much more expansion material than game update material. All of core Tyria would need... Perhaps not a complete redesign, but a huge overhaul, and that might require a while to develop. Core Tyria is a pretty big place. Putting that aside though, I really like the idea of an alternate dimension core Tyria you can swap between.

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

No.

 

2 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

It’s a no from me as well. 

 

2 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

no thanks 

I don't know if I agree with OP per se, but even so, how about adding a little more to the conversation instead of just an utterly useless one-word reply?

[Danikat.8537]

This sounds like GW1's hard mode with doom and gloom "gritty" aesthetics thrown in.

I don't like the idea of the cosmetic changes, the seemingly arbitrary unlock requirements (level 80 makes sense, the rest just sounds like busy work for people who would enjoy this) or the random effects and mobs. I understand the idea is to make it more challenging, but when you die or otherwise fail simply because the game dropped in something you never could have predicted, allowed for or countered it's just annoying. And if you get lucky and don't get anything to make it harder, or maybe get something which inadvertently makes it easier (like pocket raptors, which individually have low health, dropping in to a place where normally there's nothing to rally off) it can just feel like it cheapened the experience compared to your friends who had to deal with extra challenges.

I also think if you're going to say no mounts or other mastery abilities then you should stick to that, not allow one just because...people like mounts I suppose. The jackal is my personal favourite mount for core maps and I think it absolutely does make a difference - especially since it's portal ability makes it easier to escape enemies and survive falling. It could also be used to cross the newly dangerous lava and water areas. Maybe the warclaw would be ok, but I think if you're going to ban mounts then it should be all mounts.

I also think any achievements should be specific to the new mode, not just rehashed existing ones. As someone else said a lot of the existing achievements wouldn't actually be harder just because you're doing them in a hard mode version of the map.

I agree with @Warscythes.9307 that you'd need to limit the population on the maps (much more so than current maps do) because if you could go around in a full squad a lot of the challenge would be gone. Like the difference between running WvW solo vs zerging.

Finally like @Embered.5089 I think it sounds like something which could be fun as a novelty but not something I'd play often, which makes me think it may not be worth the effort required for Anet to make it. I have a character slot I use for doing perma-death challenges (including ones with various restrictions to make it harder) and while I like the idea and it's something I keep coming back to I don't spend much time on them in total because most of the time I would prefer to do something else. I think the idea of it is often more appealing than the reality.

[kharmin.7683]

14 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

I don't know if I agree with OP per se, but even so, how about adding a little more to the conversation instead of just an utterly useless one-word reply?

It's not utterly useless.  If the devs read this thread, then they will see that at least one person doesn't want the proposal.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

Thanks for the great and comprehensive responses 🙂  I'm going to reply just to the key points as there seemed to be a few major ones:

 

1) Resourcing.  The goal here is to keep the resource requirement low, with high pay off.  This is the same reason EoD is a requirement.  Basically picture ANet being able to release a video trailer where Queensdale turns gray, a mob levels up to a vet, and the sky goes dark.  Then they have clips from all over the world showing different enemies and aesthetics, and various chaotic happenings.  This is then advertised as "Free with EoD".  So without needing to build any new assets, they get bonus content for EoD selling, many maps of endgame content, and some good trailer footage to advertise with.

 

2) The randomness.  I understand not everyone would want this, but for me it's key to the design.  A lot of GW2 is very, very predictable, and this is a bigger issue in solo play.  Randomness is something that sparks conversation, and also looks good on stream highlight reels.  I also understand why many might be frustrated, but the chaos that would come from suddenly having pushbacks in a jumping puzzle, or having a life saving rally from a pack of pocket raptors, is exactly the kind of unscripted fun that the game is lacking.  This is a conscious effort to make meta-builds and online guides less useful, whilst also providing free marketing and fun.

 

Also, I didn't mention it because it's not something I'm as familiar with as I'd like, but the Lore of this entire world was not actually intended as "Tyria in ruin", but rather "Another mists version of Tyria".  Think Upside Down from stranger things, but with Fractal bleeding included.

 

3) The Jackal.  Okay, this is reasonably controversial.  I did consider warclaw first, but then decided it would need to be WvW earned, and that was a whole other bucket of issues.  I do know it will make like easier, and in my head it was unlocked after World Completion.  It would give some extra speed and fall protection (when you remember and can mount), but it wouldn't do things like allow you to jump high up and skip JPs/walls etc.

 

4) Rewards.  I think they should be tuned to less efficient than the big loot farms (Drizzlewood etc.), but not lower than regular Open World.  Players shouldn't feel punished for playing hard mode, but also it shouldn't be a farming zone.  Account bound cosmetic rewards (and in a very different and more controversial discussion, Legendary Armour precursors, also account bound) would be highlights.  A basic recolour of some of the nicer weapon sets (like a purple aura version of the Ascalonian Catacombs set), and maybe an armour set?

 

5) Group size.  I think this should be unlimited.  Zerging will definitely make it easier, but isn't that the point of Open World in the first place?  Get a big group of people collaborating?

Remember though, the design of this is survival not mass killing, so solo players should be able to scrape through by choosing encounters carefully, and map completing that way.  The zergs would help, but not be necessary (and if people organise regular zergs for all of Tyria, that sounds awesome to me!).

This also opens a new set of scaling options for the devs, if the mode is popular.  Currently there's a bit too much tension between casual needs and more hardcore players (see Dragons End controversy).  With a world of ruin, the devs can make e.g. the ruins Shadow Behemoth as difficult as they like, and leave the regular version untouched.

[Danikat.8537]

19 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

1) Resourcing.  The goal here is to keep the resource requirement low, with high pay off.  This is the same reason EoD is a requirement.  Basically picture ANet being able to release a video trailer where Queensdale turns gray, a mob levels up to a vet, and the sky goes dark.  Then they have clips from all over the world showing different enemies and aesthetics, and various chaotic happenings.  This is then advertised as "Free with EoD".  So without needing to build any new assets, they get bonus content for EoD selling, many maps of endgame content, and some good trailer footage to advertise with.

I think it would have the opposite effect on both sides. Besides the time and effort required to create it in the first place there's then two seperate versions of the game to balance, which has to be allowed for in all future patches. Meanwhile the responses so far fall broadly into people saying they don't want it at all and people saying it might be a fun novelty to play occasionally. That's a lot of effort for minimal response from players.

I appreciate you think it would make for interesting videos, but I'd prefer Anet to spend their time on things that would be fun for people playing the game, not watching videos on an unrelated website.

[AgentMoore.9453]

Wouldn't it be easier for them to just implement a gizmo that applies a lingering status called Tough Guy that elevates difficulty by reducing the effectiveness of your skills/gear and increases your magic find/gold gain/loot chances? Instant hard mode, comparable to GW1 (Same maps, tougher enemies, better loot).

You'd be able to turn it on/off whenever you wanted and interact with every area of the game (barring modes where they might want to disable said gizmo) without them having to make and support a second, harder version of the game. As for the particulars like no mounts/gliding, the gizmo technically could apply a localized no mount/no glide debuff, but that might render some mount/glide-required areas of the game inaccessible to you and so it's probably just easier to manually not push the mount or glide button (this is what GW2 ironman runners already do).

Anything more specific than that is going to vary dramatically from person to person, and I don't think ArenaNet can be expected to account for every variable, so even with a gizmo like this, a lot of your self-imposed rules would probably have to stay self-imposed.

EDIT: Actually, nevermind. GW2's primary difference from GW1 is that its hard mode applies to all players in the party whereas GW2 is highly individualized. Something like this would instantly be exploited by tagging events/enemies with Tough Guy applied, and then letting people in normal mode do the easy kill for maximum profit.

Edited September 28, 2022 by AgentMoore.9453
I was blinded by science.

[Woof.8246]

3 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Okay, there has been a lot of discussion on challenging solo content versus instanced group content.  I'm proposing a solution that I think would help solve several problems at once:

 

1) Add challenging end-game for solo/open world players.
2) Add significantly to the game whilst keeping resourcing as low as possible.
3) Not annoy people who just want to explore/get story as we saw with Heart of Thorns maps, and subsequent expansions being easier.
4) Possibly add a route to PvE legendary armour.

The cursed phrase:  "PvE legendary armour " !

Funny that the same people that say simply "no" in this thread   are the ones wants the most , more open world group focused content (which is exactly the same proposition , but with/out the Legendary Armor)

Edited September 28, 2022 by Woof.8246

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

15 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I think it would have the opposite effect on both sides. Besides the time and effort required to create it in the first place there's then two seperate versions of the game to balance, which has to be allowed for in all future patches. Meanwhile the responses so far fall broadly into people saying they don't want it at all and people saying it might be a fun novelty to play occasionally. That's a lot of effort for minimal response from players.

I appreciate you think it would make for interesting videos, but I'd prefer Anet to spend their time on things that would be fun for people playing the game, not watching videos on an unrelated website.

To be clear, I want this because I think it would be fun.  I also don't think it would take too much balancing because, by design, the mode is meant to be sort of broken (e.g. with the random invasions from other enemies).  This is meant to free up the game to allow for some seriously difficult content and clever gameplay, without the need for really carefully making sure everything is kept in balance.

 

The videos are included partly because I think the game does lack watercooler moments, and this is just the modern version of them, but also because I think there is a genuine business case.  We know the game needs a higher profile, and streaming content is a really good way to do that (especially if you want to appeal to players who may have initially dismissed the game as cartoony and facerolling, and are bored of their current MMO).

[Squeesidhe.4761]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

If the devs read this thread

Ha

Ha ha ha!

Ahem... yeah, OK

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

6 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Wouldn't it be easier for them to just implement a gizmo that applies a lingering status called Tough Guy that elevates difficulty by reducing the effectiveness of your skills/gear and increases your magic find/gold gain/loot chances? Instant hard mode, comparable to GW1 (Same maps, tougher enemies, better loot).

You'd be able to turn it on/off whenever you wanted and interact with every area of the game (barring modes where they might want to disable said gizmo) without them having to make and support a second, harder version of the game. As for the particulars like no mounts/gliding, the gizmo technically could apply a localized no mount/no glide debuff, but that might render some mount/glide-required areas of the game inaccessible to you and so it's probably just easier to manually not push the mount or glide button (this is what GW2 ironman runners already do).

Anything more specific than that is going to vary dramatically from person to person, and I don't think ArenaNet can be expected to account for every variable, so even with a gizmo like this, a lot of your self-imposed rules would probably have to stay self-imposed.

I considered that, but I don't know if it would work.  Specifically, because you could just tag enemies in big events with the gizmo on, and let all the normal players do most of the work.

 

Plus I don't think "We've created a gizmo that nerfs you" is necessarily going to be an advertising win.

 

I think you could maybe introduce hard mode characters, if they gave at least one free hard mode slot to people.  Which solves the playerbase splitting, but I would personally consider less fun and engaging.  I'd certainly create a character for it though 🙂 

[vares.8457]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

 If the devs read this thread

Let’s hope they don’t 

Edited September 28, 2022 by vares.8457