Was EMP a mistake?

[Sobx.1758]

42 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, let me disagree with you on that, then. Different likes and dislikes i guess.

Mounts and waypoints in close proximity target the same gameplay element (limiting time of longer journeys) and their co-existance doesn't make much sense.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

New tech should improve things, not needlessly complicate them. For the mount example, I don't think they are bad design per se. The idea that existence of mounts should cause a waypoint density reduction however was bad.

Yes, new tech should improve but I think you're equating complexities with complications. New ideas/implementations will always offer up new challemges to be solved. That doesn't mean that it's bad.

And why is a waypoint density reduction bad? Do you think there should be more waypoints? If so, why?

[Gehenna.3625]

I think it works so well because most people understand "use EMP now" better than "use CC now".

So if it's a mistake then Anet has to learn a good lesson from this mistake.

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Now that it exists, it sure should be considered in the game's balance wherever it can be used.

 

Every OW encounter should not be balanced around it. Not everyone will have IB saga, especially if they manage to grab more players into the game.  It also requires resources to purchase so unless you have an HI that you farm regularly, you won't always be able to buy it.

 

Would rather not have another mandatory grind added to the game just to play OW. 

[Firebeard.1746]

14 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

If everything scales properly to the number of players but number of players employing EMP is not consistent, then you'll get reduced damage.

No idea on the strength of the whirlpools but they're definitely much easier to break than earlier on. I always reserve 2 EMP just in case I get caught and using 2 will always get me out of it. Just 1 sometimes but I suspect that's when others were using them at the same time. Before, if I get caught, I'll just wait to die and waypoint.

Note: The trick to not getting caught in whirlpools or bubbles is to stand close to the edge near Soo Won. And when running across during the Bite attacks, if you're slow, avoid running through the middle. Stay close to the outside as you run to the other side. Bubbles and whirpools always spawn away from the edges.

2 EMPs is a lot of CC. Emps are some of the strongest cc in the game, so without emp i'd say it's massively overtuned. Also, on one of my soo won attempts she spawned a cc bar right after whirlpools, which is gross given emp has a cd as well. 

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Every OW encounter should not be balanced around it.

Sure, not every, but going forward.

They still should look into some of the older encounters due to overal power creep (unrelated to emp though). If someone wants to skip content, it's kind of on them -granted, I don't have much against anet taking similar route they used for gliding/mounts in EoD.

17 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Not everyone will have IB saga, especially if they manage to grab more players into the game.  It also requires resources to purchase so unless you have an HI that you farm regularly, you won't always be able to buy it.

We know they can add special action skills in the middle of meta encounters, so they might as well balance harder encounters around additional special action cc (EMP equivalent) and then automatically equip that/similar cc button for everyone participating (like they do with dragonstorm lazor or DE jump/spear). It doesn't even mean that special cc needs to be enough, it can mean people still need to use cc coming from their builds, but the playing field of emp is still equalized, whether you bought past content or not. So if that's your problem -it's not really a problem.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

26 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

We know they can add special action skills in the middle of meta encounters, so they might as well balance harder encounters around additional special action cc (EMP equivalent) and then automatically equip that/similar cc button for everyone participating (like they do with dragonstorm lazor or DE jump/spear). It doesn't even mean that special cc needs to be enough, it can mean people still need to use cc coming from their builds, but the playing field of emp is still equalized, whether you bought past content or not. So if that's your problem -it's not really a problem.

I'm glad you have a solution to those problems, however you did not bring them up. Had you, i would not have said anything. 

 

If you're still expecting players to bring CC though, i question the value of it and emp. They might as well restrict emp so IB maps only and then it requires less dev effort. 

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm glad you have a solution to those problems, however you did not bring them up. Had you, i would not have said anything. 

I don't see for what reason I was supposed to bring up a problem that in my eyes -as shown above- isn't a problem 😉

10 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If you're still expecting players to bring CC though, i question the value of it and emp. They might as well restrict emp so IB maps only and then it requires less dev effort. 

Yes, that's why in my initial post I've said "wherever it can be used". In fact the possibility to lock it in certain maps/areas is what I wanted to initially write in the post above, but then though that they may be less willing to "take away" from the players, hence the idea to lean into leveling the playing ground the other way (similarly to mounts in EoD).

Edited October 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

2 EMPs is a lot of CC. Emps are some of the strongest cc in the game, so without emp i'd say it's massively overtuned. Also, on one of my soo won attempts she spawned a cc bar right after whirlpools, which is gross given emp has a cd as well. 

Too easy to escape will render the whirpools useless. You have to remember that when Aurene mentioned whirlpools, those familiar with the encounter will be blasting them as well, not to mention others that just love to spams them.

When the defiance bar appear is rather predictable. It will not occur right when either the whirlpools or bubbles spawn. There is always enough time for the EMP to regen from the moment any call-outs by the NPCs to the next call-out. Of course, if you stay trapped too long and use EMP too late to free yourself, you'll run into the CD problem.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Yes, new tech should improve but I think you're equating complexities with complications. New ideas/implementations will always offer up new challemges to be solved. That doesn't mean that it's bad.

When the "new tech" purpose is to reduce the existence of challenges that would not exist without it, it becomes needless complication, nothing more.

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

And why is a waypoint density reduction bad? Do you think there should be more waypoints? If so, why?

Personally i find the QoL of fast travel a superior option to the one Mounts offer. Not to mention waypoints were universal, while mounts are not - not everyone has PoF. And while EoD offers access to some of those mounts, it does not offer access to all of them, nor does it give access to mount masteries.

This basically means you have to buy PoF and get all the masteries just to get to a quality of life a bit lower than what you've originally had in core maps.

[Astralporing.1957]

17 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Too easy to escape will render the whirpools useless. You have to remember that when Aurene mentioned whirlpools, those familiar with the encounter will be blasting them as well, not to mention others that just love to spams them.

Which is why the most common advice i see regarding whirlpools is "don;t heal yoyrself, just try to die faster and waypoint back asap" and why i only rarely see whirlpool breakbars broken? (this both on highly succesful and organized attempts and on the less organized and less succesful ones, btw).

 

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

When the defiance bar appear is rather predictable. It will not occur right when either the whirlpools or bubbles spawn. There is always enough time for the EMP to regen from the moment any call-outs by the NPCs to the next call-out. Of course, if you stay trapped too long and use EMP too late to free yourself, you'll run into the CD problem.

My experience contradicts this statement. I used an EMP to free someone else and then it was on CD when Soo Won had a BB.  And I thought reacted as soon as it came up, I don't remember waiting. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

When the "new tech" purpose is to reduce the existence of challenges that would not exist without it, it becomes needless complication, nothing more.

Please give examples. Not sure I fully understand what you're trying to get at.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Personally i find the QoL of fast travel a superior option to the one Mounts offer. Not to mention waypoints were universal, while mounts are not - not everyone has PoF. And while EoD offers access to some of those mounts, it does not offer access to all of them, nor does it give access to mount masteries.

This basically means you have to buy PoF and get all the masteries just to get to a quality of life a bit lower than what you've originally had in core maps.

Not everyone prefer to skip from one point to another with no exploring. That is a matter of preference. Doesn't make one mode better than the other.

As for the need to get PoF, if you don't have it, then you don't use mounts. Use waypoints, your superior travel options. Not everyone will have or has to have access to everything. It all depends on your priority. It is your choice. Again, that doesn't make it bad.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which is why the most common advice i see regarding whirlpools is "don;t heal yoyrself, just try to die faster and waypoint back asap" and why i only rarely see whirlpool breakbars broken? (this both on highly succesful and organized attempts and on the less organized and less succesful ones, btw).

 

That's the general advice, which I'd give to basically everyone unless they're used to and know exactly what to do. If you don't have EMP to free yourself, then you'll be wasting time pressing 1 to try and stay alive. Most players, will ignore EMP when trapped so chances of you seeing it will be very low.

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

My experience contradicts this statement. I used an EMP to free someone else and then it was on CD.  And I thought reacted as soon as it came up, I don't remember waiting. 

Check it the next time you're at the meta. Pay attention to the audio clue. If you try to free someone after a significant amount of time has elapsed, of course you won't have time.

Better yet, record the fight and check the length of time between the audio clues and when any breakbar appears. EMP recharge time is 12 seconds.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Swagger.1459]

On 10/1/2022 at 3:45 PM, Raffrey.5271 said:

While having easy access to CC across all classes is convenient, it has a downside.

I mean, look at the Soo-Won fight. The whirlpools, to be more specific. The devs basically expected everyone to have EMP at hand and use it to save your friends. Most players have all the expansions unlocked and the masteries trained, yes. But someone having access to EoD contents doesn't necessarily mean they also have PoF (required to play IBS/ access EMP).

But EMP exists! So, every time the devs develop new contents, they have to factor in its impact. And then there is the Jade Tech Protocols. These Protocols are the next thing the devs would expect everyone to have, all the time. And if they keep adding this kind of stuffs into this game, they will have to keep making the contents harder and harder to prevent contents from being "too easy".

And while this may or may not affect us committed players much, things certainly doesn't look good for those don't have past expansions.

with all due respect, i think you are over thinking this. there also isn't an absolute need for emp, it's just another tactic. 

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Please give examples. Not sure I fully understand what you're trying to get at.

Just look at the EMP case - you make a strong CC option available, but then you adjust breakbars for all enemies with the assumption everyone has EMP. Which suddenly ends up not as improving everyone's ability to CC, but as decreasing that ability for everyone not using EMP. Thus, this "new tech" does not make things better. It makes things the same for those using it, and worse for everyone else.

Basically, by introducing a new tech to solve a certain problem, you at the same time made the problem worse, so using that tech does not help, only barely brings you back to the previous state. You end up in no better situation, but you need to take care of one thing more than before. Something that was intended to help ends up being a needless complication for complication's sake.

6 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Not everyone prefer to skip from one point to another with no exploring. That is a matter of preference. Doesn't make one mode better than the other.

As for the need to get PoF, if you don't have it, then you don't use mounts. Use waypoints, your superior travel options. Not everyone will have or has to have access to everything. It all depends on your priority. It is your choice. Again, that doesn't make it bad.

Yes. If that was the choice, that is. Unfortunately, the waypoint option is no longer equal, because waypoint density got reduced due to mounts' existence. That's why i said the current situation is inferior to the original one. While i find the mount implementation in this game to truly be the best i have ever seen in MMORPGs, it still resulted in a net loss of QoL for me.

[Hashberry.4510]

Meta fights got way more annoying once mounts were introduced as well. They have been a net negative to me.

[The Boz.2038]

Absolutely yes. If it were outright deleted, the game would be better off.

[vanfrano.1325]

I think both EMP and flying mounts (especially Skyscale) were a mistake. I'd even say mounts as a whole were a mistake but they're in every games nowadays anyway...

Edited October 3, 2022 by vanfrano.1325

[Silent.6137]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Just look at the EMP case - you make a strong CC option available, but then you adjust breakbars for all enemies with the assumption everyone has EMP.

When exactly did they adjust breakbar for all enemiess after they introduced EMP? There were some adjustments to specific ones but I don't recall there ever been anything like you suggested. An imaginary scenario does not make it a valid argument.

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. If that was the choice, that is. Unfortunately, the waypoint option is no longer equal, because waypoint density got reduced due to mounts' existence. That's why i said the current situation is inferior to the original one. While i find the mount implementation in this game to truly be the best i have ever seen in MMORPGs, it still resulted in a net loss of QoL for me.

How exactly is this waypoint density even remotely important aside from artificially making that area momentarily seem busier? You will still have the same number of players on the map as they transit to another area.

For me, the QoL benefits of taking less time to get to a specific area far outweigh the pre-mounts era...by a huge margin. Take any story instance where mounts are absent and the slow slow walk just to get to the end of the path. Is that a QoL improvement or degradation?

[kharmin.7683]

58 minutes ago, vanfrano.1325 said:

I think both EMP and flying mounts (especially Skyscale) were a mistake. I'd even say mounts as a whole were a mistake but they're in every games nowadays anyway...

You're welcome to that opinion.  You're also welcome to not use mounts or EMP.  You can still complete content without them.

[Raizel.1839]

The mistake is to think and develop newer content to be playable by any player who don't own previous expansions, there should be some sort of progression IMO.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Raizel.1839

[kharmin.7683]

17 minutes ago, Raizel.1839 said:

The mistake is to think and develop newer content to be playable by any player who don't own previous expansions, there should be some sort of progression IMO.

What?  There is progression. It's the story line.  This is by design so that players are encouraged to purchase expansions.  Anet needs to make money to stay in business.

[Zaret.1450]

about EMP i think there 2 things to consider.

1 is, evwry class has access to cc, some more than others but unless you like certain builds  you will most likely have some cc, and in pve where you will mostly do metas with +40 pleople, player cc is usually enought, but in reality many people use cc when they shouldnt, dont know how to use it, or simply dont care at all and just smash buttons, teach people to play? tutorials? yeah but were not talking about that, were talking that many people dont use cc when they should.

2 even if EMP is behind an expansion... well more than half the pve game is behind an expansion, raids, living world, mounts, glide, the expansions themselves. Of course some people dont wanna buy expansions but... its their problem, i mean some of us had to buy the expansions when they launched and were more expensive, and were not demanding a refund or criing about that, is it unfair that mounts are behind an expansion? no, thats how the game was made, and if you dont have pof you prob dont need those mount because other maps are made so you can go walking or gliding, glide is the same, out of maguuma you dont realy need it that much, as for EMP, well just use your own cc guys, you have it, use it, if were in soo won emp is more usefull or better said is quality of live, but a mesmer pull, necromancer pull, fears, there are cc skills that affect an area out of EMP also there are skills other than EMP that work on boss breakbar, EMP just makes everyone have an easy cc at hand, take it out and probably a lot of people wont kill certain bosses, soo won cof cof, in their life.

ask yourself this, do you do good cc and pull your weight in fights? or you depend on EMP and the other 40+ people doing the cc and things while you just AA to hell? also if you have the expansions the living world can be bought with ingame gold that you earn playing... please stop criing about having or not having certain things that, in fact, arent even a problem guys

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

When exactly did they adjust breakbar for all enemiess after they introduced EMP? There were some adjustments to specific ones but I don't recall there ever been anything like you suggested. An imaginary scenario does not make it a valid argument.

Past enemies, no, but the design of all enemies that appeared after EMP became a thing definitely took EMP existence into consideration. Some of the recent breakbars we've seen (like in DE) are next to impossible to break without it and are clearly balanced around its existence. Don't try to pretend it's not a thing.

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

How exactly is this waypoint density even remotely important aside from artificially making that area momentarily seem busier? You will still have the same number of players on the map as they transit to another area.

Funny how you answer your question in your following sentence without even realizing you did that.

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

For me, the QoL benefits of taking less time to get to a specific area far outweigh the pre-mounts era...by a huge margin.

That's it, you don't get less time to get to a specific area. After all, you count that time from the nearest waypoint, and since there's now less of those, you end up moving faster, but having to move for greater distances. Which balances out... if you are using a mount. If you don't however, it's a net loss. So, you don't really gain anything, you just need to jump through more hoops to get to the same point.

[Silent.6137]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Past enemies, no, but the design of all enemies that appeared after EMP became a thing definitely took EMP existence into consideration. Some of the recent breakbars we've seen (like in DE) are next to impossible to break without it and are clearly balanced around its existence. Don't try to pretend it's not a thing.

Which DE bars are next to impossible to break? Definitely none of the map mobs'. Those on the tower? I'm not pretending anything. Give me some concrete examples and not mere speculations.

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Funny how you answer your question in your following sentence without even realizing you did that.

How am I answering my own question? I asked you how that is even remotely important. Which you completely ignored.

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's it, you don't get less time to get to a specific area. After all, you count that time from the nearest waypoint, and since there's now less of those, you end up moving faster, but having to move for greater distances. Which balances out... if you are using a mount. If you don't however, it's a net loss. So, you don't really gain anything, you just need to jump through more hoops to get to the same point.

Really? Even minus a waypoint or two, I can still get to any point lots faster. How is that even a net loss?

Just looking at mounts used for travels:

• Running speed - less than 300 u/s. Max 400 if using superspeed
• Raptor - 600 u/s. Max 1884 if using leaps.
• Griffon - 624 u/s. Max 2000 when diving
• Roller beetle - 1800 u/s

Assuming waypoints are doubled at regular intervals, movement speeds with mounts are still more than doubled. This is even without the loading times. And we're not even talking about mounts such as Skyscale which will drastically reduced climbing speeds by several factors or water speed which skimmer will more than doubled over swim speed. So again, how is it a net loss?

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Silent.6137