Was EMP a mistake?

[Raffrey.5271]

While having easy access to CC across all classes is convenient, it has a downside.

I mean, look at the Soo-Won fight. The whirlpools, to be more specific. The devs basically expected everyone to have EMP at hand and use it to save your friends. Most players have all the expansions unlocked and the masteries trained, yes. But someone having access to EoD contents doesn't necessarily mean they also have PoF (required to play IBS/ access EMP).

But EMP exists! So, every time the devs develop new contents, they have to factor in its impact. And then there is the Jade Tech Protocols. These Protocols are the next thing the devs would expect everyone to have, all the time. And if they keep adding this kind of stuffs into this game, they will have to keep making the contents harder and harder to prevent contents from being "too easy".

And while this may or may not affect us committed players much, things certainly doesn't look good for those don't have past expansions.

[LSD.4673]

Anet's approach to CC over the years has been hilarious. Never explained to anyone, yet often a core part of major boss fights. Shouting "CC!" (or better yet, "DON'T CC!") was like the backbone of meta boss events.

You have the Fractal people using otherwise worthless bundles to CC bosses, resulting in their removal from Fractals.

You have WvW's "now any skill that deals CC has a 1% damage coefficient lol" from 2 years ago.

And then you have Legion Waystations for totally circumventing CC in open world.

 

It's like a group of different teams that never communicate, and none of them can wrap their heads around balance.

[soul.9651]

Yes it does make the game way easier when things like EMP or jade tech protocols exist. But at the same time people at OW most of the time are so bad that without the EMP the cc just wouldnt exist, most of people dont even bother to read what their abilities do, they just press them and hope that stuff will die. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by soul.9651

[Raffrey.5271]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

Yes it does make the game way easier when things like EMP or jade tech protocols exist. But at the same time people at OW most of the time are so bad that without the EMP the cc just wouldnt exist, most of people dont even bother to read what their abilities do, they just press them and hope that stuff will die. 

 

Seriously, the tutorial about CC should start far earlier. I think a bit of rework in core story instances would be enough. Like, adding some enemy/ object immune to damages until being CC'd. Just remember to put some rocks, dredge rifles (or some other environmental weapon bundles with CC skills) around the spot for those don't have CC skills slotted at the time. And then make some pop-up messages like "CC this, or throw some rocks!". Perfect!

Back to the topic.

EoD will one day be yet another past expansion. When someone buys this game but only with the 4th expansion, they will be left out of both EMP and Jade Tech Protocols (and maybe more; who knows what we are going to get in Season 6?). The gap could one day become so big the OW commanders would start kicking people just because they have low mastery level/ achievement points, when organizing to do some Soo-Won-like-very-hard-and-demanding-future-world-boss.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Raffrey.5271

[Ashen.2907]

I am not fond of something intended to bypass core gameplay mechanics, but it really does seem as if all too many people were going to ignore those mechanics anway. 

[kitkat.2745]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

Yes it does make the game way easier when things like EMP or jade tech protocols exist. But at the same time people at OW most of the time are so bad that without the EMP the cc just wouldnt exist, most of people dont even bother to read what their abilities do, they just press them and hope that stuff will die. 

yeah... I still often see break bars fail even with EMP lol 

the two dragons in Draconis Mons are pretty good examples for that, I don't think I've ever seen it get broken tbh

[Silent.6137]

4 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

While having easy access to CC across all classes is convenient, it has a downside.

.... But someone having access to EoD contents doesn't necessarily mean they also have PoF (required to play IBS/ access EMP).

But EMP exists! So, every time the devs develop new contents, they have to factor in its impact.

...And if they keep adding this kind of stuffs into this game, they will have to keep making the contents harder and harder to prevent contents from being "too easy".

Although there's always a possibilty, I highly doubt it'll ever become a problem. A little easier, certainly.

The player base is ever changing. Certainly there are many long-timed players but those will always be the minority. And of those, only a select part will be very focused on learning how to maximize their skills. Most will be happy to get a build and  learn some basic rotations without really worrying about anything else.

CC is not a new thing yet only a small percentage of the players understand what the Defiance Bar does. Or what/where it is. "You know, the blue bar below Bosses' health bar?. "Ohhhh..."

At any meta, the number of players who actually know or pay attention to CC are very few. Otherwise, there would have been no need for anyone to yell "CC" or link-spam [Electromagical Pulse 2.0][Electromagical Pulse 2.0][Electromagical Pulse 2.0].

Mechanics? What's that? Is it 11111116111116?

Look at the Chak Gerent Meta. How long has it been around? Yet, only a select few at any of the event actually knows what to do. The rest relies on the tags or the vets to tell them what to do. The game is simpler but the learning process never ends.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Hashberry.4510]

I just find it annoying, underfoot all the time, but I always keep cc on my bar.

[ugrakarma.9416]

u have 2 choices mutually exclusive.

1-EMP.

2-cry on foruns that playerbase don't care about learn CC.

 

Also the CC complaints, i find one the dumbets complaints on forums:

1-not all classes have same CC acess.

2-99% of metas  are around DPS. ironically that ppl on cry about no-one using CC, is probably the same guys who complaint about noobs no using some meta..... the meta that have CC, are pvp/wvw oriented. cool want me use CC? so i will pickup the wvw build lol.

Edited October 2, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[ugrakarma.9416]

6 hours ago, kitkat.2745 said:

yeah... I still often see break bars fail even with EMP lol 

the two dragons in Draconis Mons are pretty good examples for that, I don't think I've ever seen it get broken tbh

yes EMP don't scale well. its seems the breakbars tends to over-scale in relation to EMP cc damage. Or,, the thing is just already balanced.

Edited October 2, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Firebeard.1746]

9 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

Anet's approach to CC over the years has been hilarious. Never explained to anyone, yet often a core part of major boss fights. Shouting "CC!" (or better yet, "DON'T CC!") was like the backbone of meta boss events.

You have the Fractal people using otherwise worthless bundles to CC bosses, resulting in their removal from Fractals.

You have WvW's "now any skill that deals CC has a 1% damage coefficient lol" from 2 years ago.

And then you have Legion Waystations for totally circumventing CC in open world.

 

It's like a group of different teams that never communicate, and none of them can wrap their heads around balance.

And every bar seems to have its own mechanics: some refill over time, some have ridiculously short windows for coordination, some can be broken by 5 people in a 50 man squad and others feel like they don't go off even of everyone does(or it requires close to everyone to CC). 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[A Hamster.2580]

Does anyone here actually know the exact defiance bar of the whirlpools? Without that knowledge, stating that devs expect players to have EMP for whirlpools is just speculation. I thought they had nerfed the defiance bars of the whirlpools so that it is much easier break now.

[Silent.6137]

53 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

yes EMP don't scale well. its seems the breakbars tends to over-scale in relation to EMP cc damage. Or,, the thing is just already balanced.

If everything scales properly to the number of players but number of players employing EMP is not consistent, then you'll get reduced damage.

26 minutes ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

Does anyone here actually know the exact defiance bar of the whirlpools? Without that knowledge, stating that devs expect players to have EMP for whirlpools is just speculation. I thought they had nerfed the defiance bars of the whirlpools so that it is much easier break now.

No idea on the strength of the whirlpools but they're definitely much easier to break than earlier on. I always reserve 2 EMP just in case I get caught and using 2 will always get me out of it. Just 1 sometimes but I suspect that's when others were using them at the same time. Before, if I get caught, I'll just wait to die and waypoint.

Note: The trick to not getting caught in whirlpools or bubbles is to stand close to the edge near Soo Won. And when running across during the Bite attacks, if you're slow, avoid running through the middle. Stay close to the outside as you run to the other side. Bubbles and whirpools always spawn away from the edges.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Teratus.2859]

7 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

Seriously, the tutorial about CC should start far earlier. I think a bit of rework in core story instances would be enough. Like, adding some enemy/ object immune to damages until being CC'd. Just remember to put some rocks, dredge rifles (or some other environmental weapon bundles with CC skills) around the spot for those don't have CC skills slotted at the time. And then make some pop-up messages like "CC this, or throw some rocks!". Perfect!

An argument i've made many times in recent years, more so since EoD introduced those kinds of training areas 10 years way too late.

Anet absolutely should replicate those training areas in all of the starter maps if you ask me, integrate them into some of the early games hearts.. and not just one of them, a bunch of them and have them recur every now and again through the early game so people get used to using CC skills and dealing with defiance bars.

I think this would also be a good way of brining back profession trainers as well, it was a mistake to remove them when they should have been repurposed into profession specific teachers that could run players through the basics of each core profession, preferably in a special instanced environment like the training Golem or something.

7 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I am not fond of something intended to bypass core gameplay mechanics, but it really does seem as if all too many people were going to ignore those mechanics anway. 

That's definitely part of the problem that makes me support things like the EMP.
There are a lot of players who do ignore mechanics more often than not and that's largely the reason why we had such trouble with Soo-Won in the first place.

Personally I want to see players punished for ignoring mechanics and trying to cheese big fights.
Soo-Won did that and people learned what they had to do, sure the event had some nerfing down since the beginning but it's still one of the harder encounters in the game and as expected people figured it out and now run it and beat it very regularly without trying to skip it's mechanics.

That's a big win imo

5 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

I just find it annoying, underfoot all the time, but I always keep cc on my bar.

Not everyone does though.. or more specifically not every build does.

It's good to have some alternative option.
Remember Gw2 was and still is a game that strongly advocates for "playing how you want to play" so the idea of being forced out of certain content because your class or build is "inefficient" really isn't in the spirit of that.

But generally I agree that it's good to have some CC on hand at all times, especially if you are a solo player.
It becomes invaluable in many encounters.

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And every bar seems to have its own mechanics: some refill over time, some have ridiculously short windows for coordination, some can be broken by 5 people in a 50 man squad and others feel like they don't go off even of everyone does(or it requires close to everyone to CC). 

This is an annoying element I agree.
The one that really bugs me are bars that basically appear for a fraction of a second and are near impossible to break, and even if they are the boss recovers and gets a new bar more or less instantly afterwards which also vanishes rapidly.

There are a couple of creatures in Gw2 like that though no names are coming to mind atm.
Thankfully they're not that common, but that makes it no less annoying to fight them.
Same goes for creatures that recover rapidly from broken defiance bars, giving very little DPS time to exploit it.

Defiance bars should be consistent as should the effects of breaking them.
Anet has made ground to fix this problem though, but I think there are still a few enemies that seem to have fallen through the cracks.

[Einsof.1457]

I think it's fine 

[Blude.6812]

Personally I feel that CC is a complete failure and could be (should be!!!!) removed from the game.

[Einsof.1457]

8 minutes ago, Blude.6812 said:

Personally I feel that CC is a complete failure and could be (should be!!!!) removed from the game.

I agree. Also builds should be removed, and gear stats as well. Also too many buttons. Rolling should also be removed. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 hours ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

Does anyone here actually know the exact defiance bar of the whirlpools? Without that knowledge, stating that devs expect players to have EMP for whirlpools is just speculation. I thought they had nerfed the defiance bars of the whirlpools so that it is much easier break now.

It doesn't really matter because it's obvious they don't break if you just sneeze at them and the bigger problem is that so many players are caught in whirlpools at once.  EMP is a 10 target CC that strikes a wide area.  Most hard CC is single target or, if 3-5 target, does not affect a large area.

[Tom.8029]

There’s sort of an example of this in game. The Snowden Drift Dragon Response Mission. If Ryland’s defiance bar is broken with the emp, it doesn’t give the same benefit as breaking it with normal cc skills, such as the increased damage taken and stun. 
 

so maybe they would just use more of this to discourage emp use. 

[Astralporing.1957]

19 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

But EMP exists! So, every time the devs develop new contents, they have to factor in its impact. And then there is the Jade Tech Protocols. These Protocols are the next thing the devs would expect everyone to have, all the time. And if they keep adding this kind of stuffs into this game, they will have to keep making the contents harder and harder to prevent contents from being "too easy"..

I'd say that the second part is way more problemactic than the first. If they want to incroduce something, they should not adjust the game later on so the use of what they introduced is expected, because it would remove the reason for why it was introduced in the first place.

"Air breathing mermaid" approach (the one when by introducing a new mechanic you change everything so it suddenly becomes required/expected even when it wasn't before) was always a bad design idea.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"Air breathing mermaid" approach (the one when by introducing a new mechanic you change everything so it suddenly becomes required/expected even when it wasn't before) was always a bad design idea.

Are you suggesting that everything should stay the same? New tech discovered. Nope, can't have that. Bad design idea because it didn't exist before.

PoF introduced mounts. for example. They're required/expected now. Do you really think mounts are bad design ideas?

[Sobx.1758]

Break bar was badly explained (or rather: not explained) -> limited knowledge of the playerbase about what it does -> playerbase doesn't use related mechanics -> introduce aoe cc spam to help the playerbase -> explain mechanics in next (EoD) expansion.

Yup, it was a mistake and I would say it's mostly a mistake resulting from a rather backwards approach they had on introducing the mechanic in the first place. Now that it exists, it sure should be considered in the game's balance wherever it can be used.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

Are you suggesting that everything should stay the same? New tech discovered. Nope, can't have that. Bad design idea because it didn't exist before.

PoF introduced mounts. for example. They're required/expected now. Do you really think mounts are bad design ideas?

New tech should improve things, not needlessly complicate them. For the mount example, I don't think they are bad design per se. The idea that existence of mounts should cause a waypoint density reduction however was bad.

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

New tech should improve things, not needlessly complicate them. For the mount example, I don't think they are bad design per se. The idea that existence of mounts should cause a waypoint density reduction however was bad.

No, core maps always had too many waypoints. Mounts + fewer points is way better. 

[Astralporing.1957]

12 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

No, core maps always had too many waypoints. Mounts + fewer points is way better. 

Well, let me disagree with you on that, then. Different likes and dislikes i guess.