Stealth Gyro (an ELITE) only gives 3s of Stealth in WvW now? Just remove it entirely, it is 100% useless now.

[Ashadow.6874]

Why even bother to leave it in the game at this point.  It has less Stealth than most normal skills that give stealth.  -_-

[Jerus.4350]

It still has plenty of uses in PVE, and it might be worth it now and then in WvW.  Fact is having 20s of stealth available to your group from Stealth gyro was just too much, and they don't like the broad spectrum of roles Scrapper can/could fill, so they didn't want Scrapper to be the stealth source for groups.  This solves that, but I agree it needs something else.  I'm a fan of giving it an initial hit of superspeed, so if you want to use it to contribute to stealth on an engage, you'll also get superspeed which could help there.  Likewise it would work as a disengage tool.  There are other options, but tacking on a boon/buff of some kind that is in line with the scope of what they want Scrapper's role(s) to be would work.

[Zaret.1450]

think that before it was 1.5secs, 6 pulses, smoke screen, and mobile the closest was mesmer elite invi and it is 6 secs, no superspeed and no smoke screen.

Think that invis are incredibly strong too, i guess every invi will end up nerfed so you cant permastealth a zerg

[Noah Salazar.5430]

it's still usefull for me as roamer

only think i  want is cd reduction to 35-45s so i will can use it more often

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[cgMatt.5162]

It should have at kept the smoke field, right now Toss Elixir S is better than the elite.

Projectile 3s stealth, 5 targets, 45s cd or 3.5s stealth, 5 targets, 36s cd traited.

They should have thought this out better.

[Shaogin.2679]

It is so stupid when they do reactionary balance like this without an actual fix. They just nerf the hell out of it to satisfy people and say they will deal with it later. Anet is seriously incompetent when it comes to balance.

[Calen.8945]

I agree. I've never liked Stealth Gyro as it's far too niche to use in most pve situation.

[Loboling.5293]

If they do this, they will need to put the skill cooldown to 30-45 seconds in wvw. 

[Stalima.5490]

What I don't understand is why they don't just give scrapper a new elite skill if the stealth gyro is such a problem, being a more tanky dps focused specialisation it is a little odd that its elite skill is stealth.

 

If I was going a bit crazy with it I'd say they could just make the elite drop all the other gyros at a location similar to the supply crate maybe with a chaos field with the chaotic nature of having all those gyros mixing all their effects together.

[Dawdler.8521]

Meanwhile thief still have offhand smoke field with no cooldown that they [ab]use to permastealth in the middle of fights but ooooooh noooooo sneak gyro is too OP.

[Jski.6180]

I do not think your going to get much support here this form seems mostly for pve eng not wvw and spvp the very reason of why this is all happened was because of the "fear" of the gyro update in pve not wvw.

[wasss.1208]

22 hours ago, Ashadow.6874 said:

Why even bother to leave it in the game at this point.

Because it still sees some use in PvP, and PvE.
 

 

22 hours ago, Ashadow.6874 said:

It has less Stealth than most normal skills that give stealth.

Because the Balance team doesn't want Scrapper to have: Heal, cleanse, superspeed, stab, projectilehate, stealth, and quickness. This is pretty much a full package, and as long, as Scrapper has access to all of this, other supports will never be considered. Hence the "smiters booning" of Sneak Gyro, and the quickness on superspeed. Now it has heal, cleanse, superspeed, stab, projectilehate, and technicly you can still give stealth via Toss Elixir S, and Bomb kit -> smoke blasting, it is just clunkier.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Core Mesmer Mass Invisibility
Cooldown: 75s / 60s (traited)
Number of Targets: 10
Duration: 6s
Radius: 1,200
Visual Indicator: No

Scrapper Sneak Gyro
Cooldown: 60s
Number of Targets: 5
Duration: 3s
Radius: 240
Visual Indicator: Yes

My problem is, we are comparing a Core elite-skill with an Elite Specialization elite-skill. The bare minimum should be equal power. But what we have received is weaker than Core and we have a visual indicator telling the enemy where to find us. 

If ANet did not promise to clean up the 300s cooldown mess in this very patch, Sneak Gyro would have received a 300s cooldown in this patch instead. 

[Custodio.6134]

yeah, it´s kind of ridiculous how ANet handled Sneak-Gyro. The Indicator is actually not as bad as it sounds, since it stays where it was initially used (it doesn´t move if the scrapper moves).

however, the point still stands.

and we still have this:

Mesmer Veil:
Cooldown: 72s
Number of targets: infinite
Duration: 2s
Radius: line with ~600 length (just estimation)
Visual Indicator: no
Type of Skill: core Utility

And here the the even worse part: we´re now at the point where we compare a core mesmer utility-skill, with an Elite-Specialization elite skill...

Edited October 5, 2022 by Custodio.6134

[Shaogin.2679]

7 hours ago, wasss.1208 said:

Because it still sees some use in PvP, and PvE.
 

 

Because the Balance team doesn't want Scrapper to have: Heal, cleanse, superspeed, stab, projectilehate, stealth, and quickness. This is pretty much a full package, and as long, as Scrapper has access to all of this, other supports will never be considered. Hence the "smiters booning" of Sneak Gyro, and the quickness on superspeed. Now it has heal, cleanse, superspeed, stab, projectilehate, and technicly you can still give stealth via Toss Elixir S, and Bomb kit -> smoke blasting, it is just clunkier.

Oh yeah, that actually does make sense. They are probably about to nerf the hell out of Firebrands then. I mean, instead of stealth and superspeed they have more stability, stunbreaks, and reflects. So clearly they don't want one class to rule them all. I'll just sit here and wait for that.

[Plok.5873]

AN really over-nerfed this gyro. We should (politely + reasonably) continue to protest until we're heard.
Comparing it to other sources of AE stealth seems an effective way to demonstrate the point. I'm mostly summarizing hereinafter what others already wrote:

* Mesmer Core Utility [Veil]
Stealth Duration: 2s / 3s (Trait: [Prismatic Understanding])
Cooldown: 72s
Number of Targets: Infinite
Radius: Line
Visual Indicator: no

* Mesmer Core Elite [Mass Invisibility]
Stealth Duration: 6s / 9s (Trait: [Prismatic Understanding])
Cooldown: 75s / 60s (Trait Master of Manipulation)
Number of Targets: 10
Radius: 1,200
Visual Indicator: No

* Scrapper Elite [Sneak Gyro]
Stealth Duration: 3s
Cooldown: 60s
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 240
Visual Indicator: Yes

* Engineer Tool Belt [Toss Elixir S]
Cooldown: 45s / 37s (Trait: HGH)
Stealth Duration: 3s / 3.5s (Trait: HGH)
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 180
Range: 900

So, we indeed get a better bonus tool belt ability from [Elixir S] than our specialisation elite. Yay us.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Plok.5873

[wasss.1208]

16 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Oh yeah, that actually does make sense. They are probably about to nerf the hell out of Firebrands then. I mean, instead of stealth and superspeed they have more stability, stunbreaks, and reflects. So clearly they don't want one class to rule them all. I'll just sit here and wait for that.

Yes, they should do that. Firebrand was mandatory in the meta ever since it was released, and did just as much harm, if not even more, in the support diversity of a WvW zerg, than Support Scrapper. And even before Firebrand, Support Guardian was the go-to stability source, which is pretty much the same, just less overloaded, since it doesn't have 15 extra skills for free.
Them shaving some of Firebrands stability, and giving the other support builds some is good for a start, but FB is still having a grossly overloaded kit, and it won't be replaced, until it is reworked, or heavily nerfed.
There are rumors, that the focus of the next patch is boon, corrupts, and support weapons, so I'm hoping to see them doing something with it.

[Cuks.8241]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:06 PM, wasss.1208 said:

Because the Balance team doesn't want Scrapper to have: Heal, cleanse, superspeed, stab, projectilehate, stealth, and quickness. This is pretty much a full package, and as long, as Scrapper has access to all of this, other supports will never be considered. Hence the "smiters booning" of Sneak Gyro, and the quickness on superspeed. Now it has heal, cleanse, superspeed, stab, projectilehate, and technicly you can still give stealth via Toss Elixir S, and Bomb kit -> smoke blasting, it is just clunkier.

As long as Scrapper will be the best choice for super speed and cleansing and perhaps healing it wont change anything. Healing might not even be that important its probably just super speed and cleansing.

Stealth is a fun and skilled mechanic for group fights. Maybe the full duration of the gyro with full blasts was too long but they should leave the smoke field. And the visual indicator is just stupid. It doesnt change anything but its still stupid. A skilled and aware commander/group always knew when an enemy group went to stealth. And going to stealth first was a risk. You could hear the blasts (now you cant anymore) and you can mark enemy and look at mini map when the mark dissapears if the group was our of sight. So visual and sound indication. Now they removed sound indicator and gave a second stupid visual indicator.

And if group stealth would be such an OP mechanic overall everyone would always want 1 or 2 mesmers in the group. And while 1 or 2 mesmers were always really great, they were not there because of stealth. It was just added fun bonus just like sneak gyro is.

Want to nerf Scrapper in WvW? Align the superspeed and cleansing/condi conversion capabilities with tempest. Both on uptime and on demand availability.

Agree on quickness.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Cuks.8241

[Infinity.2876]

FYI you can artificially give an extra pulse to stealth gyro by using a blast finisher (easiest access is riffle 5). I'm not sure this works in wvw but it might be something to try

Edited October 6, 2022 by Infinity.2876

[tykel.6073]

On 10/5/2022 at 1:57 AM, Stalima.5490 said:

What I don't understand is why they don't just give scrapper a new elite skill if the stealth gyro is such a problem, being a more tanky dps focused specialisation it is a little odd that its elite skill is stealth.

 

If I was going a bit crazy with it I'd say they could just make the elite drop all the other gyros at a location similar to the supply crate maybe with a chaos field with the chaotic nature of having all those gyros mixing all their effects together.

yeah honestly it would be cool if the elite gyro was something else that helped them either tank/frontline better or was an actual option for pve damage rotations. Not sure what it would look like, perhaps a cage gyro to engage fights with in wvw or something that pulses boon strip or something like that (but doesn’t block projectiles so that it’s not just winds all over again). Heck it could even be a long lasting dps button called like haywire gyro or something that pulses damage, burn, some movement impairment condition like cripple or something, and on its final pulse exploded for bigger damage and a blind and bleed with the burn or something like that. 
 

Obviously just spitballing but mortar kit being the best dps option for every game mode feels kinda bad, especially since it also has the heal field.

[wasss.1208]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

As long as Scrapper will be the best choice for super speed and cleansing and perhaps healing it wont change anything.

It is probably the best cleansing support still in the game, after the vindi hotfix/nerfs, but Tempest was always pretty close. Scrapper got a round of nerfs to it this patch, so Tempest might get close enough, for people to not consider Scrapper as the go-to condi cleanse support. Healing is also debatable. Revenant, Druid, and even Tempest can have huge HPS numbers.
 

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

You could hear the blasts (now you cant anymore) and you can mark enemy and look at mini map when the mark dissapears if the group was our of sight.

 

Technicly, they can still blast stealth, like they did before, using bomb kit. They can even slot in Elixir S, to toss it during the running, and swap both of the skills back, before the fight. This is a commonly used strategy in GvGs. Apart from that, Thief has an infinite supply of smoke fields, Ranger/Druid can offer one, via Smokescale, and as you mentioned, Mesmers can trait to have Mass Invis, to give 9 seconds of stealth, to 10 people, on a push of a button. So stealth is still there, it's just more difficult to get it from the Scrapper. I wouldn't be surprised, if organised groups would start to run Druid now, since it has a smoke field, good heal, and some utility.
 

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Want to nerf Scrapper in WvW? Align the superspeed and cleansing/condi conversion capabilities with tempest. Both on uptime and on demand availability.

They probably didn't touch Superspeed, because it should be Scrappers niché after the condi cleanse nerfs, like Tempest has auras, Ranger immob, Revenant huge heal numbers, Scourge barrier (and used to res), and Firebrand using mainly boons, to support.
I do agree with you, that touching the Superspeed access would be the quickest way, to knock Scrapper off, from the meta support status, but they decided not to do temper with that, for now.
 

 

1 hour ago, tykel.6073 said:

yeah honestly it would be cool if the elite gyro was something else that helped them either tank/frontline better or was an actual option for pve damage rotations.

For that, they would have to decide what Scrapper actually is. It was starting out as a bruiser/tank, then people started to use it as a support after the gyro reworks, so A-net decided, that it is a support now, but it's also a dps, and has tanky traits...
As much as I like Sneak Gyro, having a completely new elite skill, that would define the spec a bit more would be pretty neat.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

10 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

FYI you can artificially give an extra pulse to stealth gyro by using a blast finisher (easiest access is riffle 5). I'm not sure this works in wvw but it might be something to try

They also took away the smoke field portion of sneak gyro in wvw, so no it doesn't work.

[Zhaeli.5416]

For WvW, heal scrapper is not dominating cleanses anymore.  Which is okay.  I had just hoped it could be one of the possibilities. Heal tempest is easily outpacing scrapper in cleanses and heals (with a better QoL playstyle). 

Rather than bringing hscrapper in line with other support alternatives (which IS a good plan), the 'patch pendulum' swung too hard and hscrapper is not keeping up in cleanses and heals. It requires Shredder Gyro (rather than Bulwark) to try to stay on a roster comp/bring numbers. But even at that, several competitive guilds that I run with have booted hscrapper from play.

Superspeed is definitely its asset.  Anything else?

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Zhaeli.5416

[Custodio.6134]

21 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Want to nerf Scrapper in WvW? Align the superspeed and cleansing/condi conversion capabilities with tempest. Both on uptime and on demand availability.

 

18 hours ago, wasss.1208 said:

It is probably the best cleansing support still in the game, after the vindi hotfix/nerfs, but Tempest was always pretty close. Scrapper got a round of nerfs to it this patch, so Tempest might get close enough, for people to not consider Scrapper as the go-to condi cleanse support. Healing is also debatable. Revenant, Druid, and even Tempest can have huge HPS numbers.

well, i didn´t have much chance to do intensive testing and comparison between tempest and scrapper (due to lack of close-to-perfect scenarios to compare between them), but from what i expierienced so far, healing and cleansing are pretty much on the same level. Tempest has a minimal advantage on the healing-front, as the burst is a bit higher (Overload Water), but over the course of a fight it evens out again. Just looking at the numbers (via arcdps healing-stats) makes them almost identical in healing and cleansing. 

Even superspeed is not a big difference, however it is a bit more versatile on scrapper (because scrapper superspeed is split among the gyros, so for a continuos uptime you need to chain gyros together). Tempest reaches 3s, while chaining gyros without F1 gets you to 4.5s, as you usually don´t want to pull F1 just for superspeed because it´s your strongest self-heal (that also goes into MDF)

the big difference would still be stealth (even without sneak-gyro) because scrapper has access to bomb-kit, where (if done correctly) you can reach ridiulous stealth-uptimes if done correctly (however, this needs skill-swapping and has a very low tolerances on execution and heavily suffers if you screw up the blasts). But that mostly matters in surprise-engages, as the risk of getting into combat and not being able to switch your utilities is high if you already face the enemy

[cgMatt.5162]

Ok after playing it for a few days + reset I think the change to Stealth Gyro is healthier for WvW so great job! At least until the meta stabilizes. I still think it could do more though as it is not quite as comparable to Mesmer Mass Invisibility or Veil (Stealth duration and target caps).

Opens up the secondary support options for Vindicator and Tempest, I don't think Druid works that well but I saw people running it. If you camp Med Kit 1 as a support the heals should exceed Tempest, but Tempest is still better at cleansing (it was better pre-Oct 4th patch compared to Scrappers of similar skill level in my experience) and burst healing as previously mentioned. Comps can drop Scrapper completely if they want now.