Guardian = Firebrand? What about other specs?

[Varolite.7615]

Its good to see that ANET is listening to feedbacks but it seems that guardian specs (Willbender / DH) has been left behind as no one bothers to care about the class anymore. There are merely few feedbacks on the class and it seems that every patch notes guardian has nothing in it except for slight nerfs to FB.

 

On openworld / fractals / raids, you will rarely see a willbender & DH anymore and mostly its FB as a quickness / heal provider. 

 

On PVP - willbenders / DH also is almost non-existent anymore. DH is used but it is outclassed almost by everyone, there is a decline on core guard as well due to the superior support of tempest, and FB well forget about it..

 

On WVW - FB (again) is a must due to stability provider, there are no classes that can replace these yet. Other than that DH once more received a nerf on traps after nerfing their ranged damaged just months back. Core / willbender again has no use except to roam.

 

FB has taken away all the fun in playing other specs of guardian, everyone seemed to think that guardian is the favorite child but in reality its only FB. 

Hopefully some positive change can be made for the other specs to be viable again. 

[Ashantara.8731]

25 minutes ago, Varolite.7615 said:

Its good to see that ANET is listening to feedbacks but it seems that guardian specs (Willbender / DH) has been left behind as no one bothers to care about the class anymore.

I don't know why you have this inaccurate perception, but I am seeing tons of Willbenders in group content. Personally, I play my Guardian as Dragonhunter outside of instanced endgame content, and it's a very strong spec.

[Varolite.7615]

Tons of willbender? I play willy myself, you can check the character usage charts in raids / fractals / strikes.. it seems that willbender and dh is almost non existent. Also check the popular streamers who joins a squad of 50 people, which you can barely count using one hand any dh / wb’s in the group.. dont get me wrong, dh and willy are fun to play but it’s nowhere as competitive to the other class and the attention given to other classes as well.

[Falseprophet.1502]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I don't know why you have this inaccurate perception, but I am seeing tons of Willbenders in group content. Personally, I play my Guardian as Dragonhunter outside of instanced endgame content, and it's a very strong spec.

Ding, ding, ding, ding! Anything is strong outside of instanced end game. Moot point. Also, enough of this echo chamber nonsense.

 

Power Guardian, along with pWB/Dh, is struggling very much in end game instanced content in terms of being an actual competitive choice in any meta. The constant neglect through any balance, along with no acknowledgement that it is and has been a problem, is pretty alarming. Don't hold your breath for 11/29. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Falseprophet.1502
clarity

[Ashantara.8731]

43 minutes ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

Power Guardian, along with pWB/Dh, is struggling very much in end game instanced content in terms of being an actual competitive choice in any meta.

I have no idea what "echochamber nonsense" means, as I didn't read any of the responses here, but in any case, I was merely pointing out that the claim that "no ones plays these specs" is simply inaccurate.

As for endgame content, of course the Power Draginhunter build, which uses melee/short range weapons cannot compete with ranged specs in a lot of endgame content. Mechanist, Virtuoso and others are strong ranged builds that are more efficient in terms of keeping damage up at all times.

[otto.5684]

Ya, pve wise nothing is good outside of FB. It is both the best dps and the best support. Condi WB is not far behind. Everything else is pretty dead.

 

I dunno how is WB nowadays in spvp. I think it is at least fine. Core support is also okay. DH is terrible, and FB is in contention for the worst build in spvp.

[Falseprophet.1502]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I have no idea what "echochamber nonsense" means, as I didn't read any of the responses here, but in any case, I was merely pointing out that the claim that "no ones plays these specs" is simply inaccurate.

As for endgame content, of course the Power Draginhunter build, which uses melee/short range weapons cannot compete with ranged specs in a lot of endgame content. Mechanist, Virtuoso and others are strong ranged builds that are more efficient in terms of keeping damage up at all times.

 

It means you're only listening to things that support what you perceive to be true. Just because you play Dragonhunter in OW, does not mean it is a "very strong spec." Just because you hear one person randomly say "omg, DH is so OP for this hero point" whatever, does not mean it is a "very strong spec."  Also, there is a large subset of people who think Guardian doesn't deserve any buffs because of the monopoly that is Firebrand, thus nothing else should be adequate (i.e., power specs). In PvE, Dragonhunter or Willbender are not good. So quit echoing that sentiment without *actually* evaluating the holon of the meta, question why Power Guard specializations underperform in their current iteration, and ultimately, how can the developers adequately make changes to these two specs to actually allow it to be competitive in the current meta. It becomes really clear how neither are not a "very strong spec." Your point about melee vs. range is irrelevant to everything so I'm not going to entertain that. 

 

Go spend ten minutes and read any of the threads that have been offering suggestions on how to improve these specs. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Falseprophet.1502

[Eekasqueak.7850]

They could stand to buff scepter a bit or revamp it entirely to be better for power DPS, Willbender is ok in PvP from what I understand though and FB is bad there. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The irony is that, right now as I write this, I'm on a Griever Willbender.  I... am also the only willbender in this 50-man squad.  Biggest problem facing DH and Willbender is that they don't really offer anything that Firebrand doesn't.  Firebrand has the highest damage, the most utility, the most features, the best support, and the best healing builds.  Willbender offers mobility and the most (but weaker) pseudo-invulnerability skills.  Dragonhunter has the highest burst damage and an excellent block in Shield of Courage, but that's about it.

Those are useful in their own right, but the way PVE works is that everything trickles down from the fractal and raid groups.  There, having increased mobility and pseudo-invulnerability skills don't amount to much.  Overworld is easy enough to do anything, so there's no reason not to just sit on the same Firebrand builds.  If you wanted to solo fractals or dungeons I'd recommend DH and WB over FB any day, but that's a niche and eccentric thing.  

Edited October 6, 2022 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[CraftyK.9062]

9 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I don't know why you have this inaccurate perception, but I am seeing tons of Willbenders in group content. Personally, I play my Guardian as Dragonhunter outside of instanced endgame content, and it's a very strong spec.

You can make a lot of things "work" outside of instanced content, but Dragonhunter and Willbender have it rather tough in instanced endgame content. Dragonhunter's Radiance benchmark is on par with quickness condizerk, and Dragonhunter Virtues is on par with a Power Spellbreaker. Willbender in either Radiance or Virtues has a lower bench than Dragonhunter. From data collected by gw2wingman, out of Dragonhunters/Willbenders make up 0.71% and 0.42% representation respectively out of 345422 logs sent in Raids, and 0.84%/0.87% respectively out of 200953 logs in Strikes. Power Guardian in general lost a lot of its damage as a result of removing unique buffs, and while you can clear stuff as either Dragonhunter or Willbender for sure, at least in the pug scenario, what are you really bringing to a potential team as a DH that you either couldn't or wouldn't provide as a Firebrand?

 

Again, I am not asking for Dragonhunter or Willbender to be overbuffed as I don't really like stuff being overpowered either, but in instanced endgame Power Guard as a whole imo needs help, especially that we're at the point that Power Guard is on par with some quickness DPS, which shouldn't happen imo

Edited October 6, 2022 by CraftyK.9062
Forgot to add data for strike

[Gehenna.3625]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:57 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

I don't know why you have this inaccurate perception, but I am seeing tons of Willbenders in group content. Personally, I play my Guardian as Dragonhunter outside of instanced endgame content, and it's a very strong spec.

I like the DH but I wouldn't call it a strong spec. But instead of calling your perception inaccurate, let me ask you to explain WHY you think it's a strong spec. I might learn something new. Oh and do you use a longbow with your "strong" build?

[Xantris.9364]

It isn’t firebrand that’s the problem, it’s that the other specs aren’t good. If firebrand ends up getting nerfed, guardian is just going to end up unplayed.

[Mell.4873]

I think Guardian suffers what other Classes suffer as a whole. We have 3 Elite Specialization that are used drastically differently.

• Dragonhunter: Simple to play but with high burst/trap potential
• Firebrand: Hard to play but rewarding if you cycles Tomes correctly (almost Elementalist like)
• Willbender: Tones of Mobility and different damage types

Its almost as if each of them address a problem with Core but this is all coming from someone who hates Guardian gameplay.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Buran.3796]

   I prefer WB over FB for solo PvE: a lot more damage and much improved mobility. For roaming is fifty fifty: both have their issues in sustain, but FB has more cc in trade for the damage and mobility that loses. In team play (both PvE and WvW) FB has the winner hand due so much utility, but in contrast in PvP FB is amongst the worst spec that ever touched that game mode. But when I play Guardian at PvP (not that oftenly, to be honest) I probaly enjoy more FB than WB.

[zeyeti.8347]

16 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think Guardian suffers what other Classes suffer as a whole. We have 3 Elite Specialization that are used drastically differently.

• Dragonhunter: Simple to play but with high burst/trap potential
• Firebrand: Hard to play but rewarding if you cycles Tomes correctly (almost Elementalist like)
• Willbender: Tones of Mobility and different damage types

Its almost as if each of them address a problem with Core but this is all coming from someone who hates Guardian gameplay.

Sorry but the firebrand hard to play made me giggle a bit , elementalist like ??? yeah your attunements are on a 30 , 40 and 75 sec cd it's a little bit harder to do so when they are on a 10 or 4sec cd.

DH is way harder to play , has less defense (you have +250 vitality when under quickness as fb ... and play with balthazar runes for dps , so +10% hp , it is way bulkyer than dh) and Dh need a perfect rotation to be able to compete (not even) with other dps classes , only trick with fb is managing torch 4 skills with the passiv same skill trait to not overlap the flaming pulse from each others and even you do not loose a lot of damage , just make 1 mistake as Dh and you are gone on arcdps.

Dh is one of the classes who need a very good inside look from devs , it is non existing in endgame content , in pvp or wvw i dunno , so wont make a point about that.

If your point was focused on pvp and wvw , then my bad , dont consider the text above .

Edited October 12, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Sorry but the firebrand hard to play made me giggle a bit , elementalist like ??? yeah your attunements are on a 30 , 40 and 75 sec cd it's a little bit harder to do so when they are on a 10 or 4sec cd.

DH is way harder to play , has less defense (you have +250 vitality when under quickness as fb ... and play with balthazar runes for dps , so +10% hp , it is way bulkyer than dh) and Dh need a perfect rotation to be able to compete (not even) with other dps classes , only trick with fb is managing torch 4 skills with the passiv same skill trait to not overlap the flaming pulse from each others and even you do not loose a lot of damage , just make 1 mistake as Dh and you are gone on arcdps.

Dh is one of the classes who need a very good inside look from devs , it is non existing in endgame content , in pvp or wvw i dunno , so wont make a point about that.

If your point was focused on pvp and wvw , then my bad , dont consider the text above .

Again i have only superficially play it but that was my breakdown.

Any easy class when played to the extreme can be much harder especially if you rely on certain tricks for damage. I also see it played a lot in PvP but not so much in PvE probably due to what you state.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I prefer WB over FB for solo PvE: a lot more damage and much improved mobility. For roaming is fifty fifty: both have their issues in sustain, but FB has more cc in trade for the damage and mobility that loses. In team play (both PvE and WvW) FB has the winner hand due so much utility, but in contrast in PvP FB is amongst the worst spec that ever touched that game mode. But when I play Guardian at PvP (not that oftenly, to be honest) I probaly enjoy more FB than WB.

Support firebrand was god-tier in sPvP for a while. So much so that you couldn't play any OTHER guardian build, because that increased the chance of the enemy team having a support firebrand while yours doesn't, and you pretty much might as well just GG at that point.

It ended up where it is now due to balance perception inertia:

It gets nerfed down to being probably around average for support - but people are still playing it and doing well because they had the muscle memory, and having a support is still good for a team, so the perception among everyone else was that it was still overpowered. 

It then got nerfed down to the point of being a bad support, and support players moved to tempest, BUT... this opened up a bruisery firebrand build because you were no longer essentially sabotaging your team by playing a guardian build that wasn't support firebrand. So now people were actually dying to it. And therefore going to the forums to complain.

It eventually got to the point where everyone who played guardian in PvP regularly were aware it was bad, but every so often someone who wasn't aware of how the balance had shifted would come in on their old build and play it, and if they were successful someone would regard it as evidence that it was still overpowered.

It took being reduced to food tier before people admitted that it was no longer overpowered, and even then it still managed to cop a couple of nerfs as collateral damage from PvE and WvW-related changes. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Kulvar.1239]

Only change I see for FB is Mantra of Solace going from 3 to 2 charges and healing for more.

[jaif.3518]

Willbender is a strong roamer in wvw, where mobility is a huge advantage.

 

I imagine its weaker in pve where your mobility doesnt mean that much.

[anbujackson.9564]

Dragonhunter needs the most attention for guardian.

They also need to fix that weird cooldown change they made, which put your F1 and your trap on a different CD. 

At this point I am simply waiting for their philosophy. So I know if everything above 37k will get nerfed or everything below will receive buffs. Personally I am not a fan of more 40k+ benches or 40k benches in general. That number should never be broken. It simply makes the game a mess.

[cat.8975]

23 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Dragonhunter needs the most attention for guardian.

They also need to fix that weird cooldown change they made, which put your F1 and your trap on a different CD. 

At this point I am simply waiting for their philosophy. So I know if everything above 37k will get nerfed or everything below will receive buffs. Personally I am not a fan of more 40k+ benches or 40k benches in general. That number should never be broken. It simply makes the game a mess.

I'd rather they stop balancing around golem numbers, as they're often hilariously out of line with what you can get in Actual Real Encounters Against Things That Fight Back.

For example, any build that heavily relies on pulsing AoEs is going to perform terribly on moving targets. Melee-centric builds struggle whenever there are mechanics that force you away from the target. Ranged builds suffer in the face of projectile destruction/reflection (nvm they haven't bothered adding this to any encounters yet so ranged builds are highly favorable whenever they do comparable golem numbers cough cough mechanist cough).

There's a reason you don't see people playing Ele, even when it had 40k+ benchmarks. Deadeye, Bladesworn, and Untamed all have 40k+ builds at the moment, yet I hardly see them in groups. Should these builds be nerfed anyway to bring their golem number in line with everything else?

[otto.5684]

On 10/12/2022 at 8:20 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Support firebrand was god-tier in sPvP for a while. So much so that you couldn't play any OTHER guardian build, because that increased the chance of the enemy team having a support firebrand while yours doesn't, and you pretty much might as well just GG at that point.

It ended up where it is now due to balance perception inertia:

It gets nerfed down to being probably around average for support - but people are still playing it and doing well because they had the muscle memory, and having a support is still good for a team, so the perception among everyone else was that it was still overpowered. 

It then got nerfed down to the point of being a bad support, and support players moved to tempest, BUT... this opened up a bruisery firebrand build because you were no longer essentially sabotaging your team by playing a guardian build that wasn't support firebrand. So now people were actually dying to it. And therefore going to the forums to complain.

It eventually got to the point where everyone who played guardian in PvP regularly were aware it was bad, but every so often someone who wasn't aware of how the balance had shifted would come in on their old build and play it, and if they were successful someone would regard it as evidence that it was still overpowered.

It took being reduced to food tier before people admitted that it was no longer overpowered, and even then it still managed to cop a couple of nerfs as collateral damage from PvE and WvW-related changes. 

And this is why balance is supposed to happen at top efficiency. If you don’t normalize for player skill and other unrelated factors, you will never get be able to balance correctly.

[eldrevo.1746]

4 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

And this is why balance is supposed to happen at top efficiency. If you don’t normalize for player skill and other unrelated factors, you will never get be able to balance correctly.

It's not the easiest topic for sure, but balancing the game around the top 0,1% players is not very good for the rest 99,9. And the middle ground, while desirable, is very, very hard to reach especially with such complex games as GW2.

 

As for the main topic, I'm still playing DH and Willy whenever I can, namely in Open World, PVP and WvW. Used to do fractals and raids on them too but sadly now it's just griefing. Pls buff.

[Kulvar.1239]

9 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

And this is why balance is supposed to happen at top efficiency. If you don’t normalize for player skill and other unrelated factors, you will never get be able to balance correctly.

Just increase base AA + few straight forward DPS skills damage while nerfing "combo" damage lets ANet adjust both peak efficiency and average efficiency.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, eldrevo.1746 said:

It's not the easiest topic for sure, but balancing the game around the top 0,1% players is not very good for the rest 99,9. And the middle ground, while desirable, is very, very hard to reach especially with such complex games as GW2.

Particularly when it's a fairly safe bet that for the top end, nerfs generally just mean they're not able to break past records, it doesn't meaningfully reduce their chance of success. It's the players with a significant chance of failure that are most affected.