That one class that is stacked in every game...

[TheDevice.2751]

Dragonhun- I mean Scourge.

My question is: what is the difference between the Scourge and DH (before PoF). When there were plenty of complaints about there being stacks of DH on each team and them deleting people who got too close to them?

Where are all the threads that are like "Stay out of their circles", "if you died in their circles, you deserved it", "get gud", "they are low skill ceiling" or my favorite "It's a L2P issue". The similarities are almost scary and you could pretty much say all those things about the scourge that people said about the DH as they all can potentially apply.

Whats the difference? Is it because Scourge is being supported by firebrand? And if thats the case, should we be disregarding all the complaints from lower-ranked players since its quite rare to see a scourge/fb duo below plat?

Btw, I think scourge should get nerfed. I just would like to know how this situation is different from the DH one.

[Cynz.9437]

DH had counters, scourge has basically none outside of high range which implies "stay away from circles" = "don't have points" = "lose game". There were classes that could contest point while dh was camping it, i don't think anything really can reliably contest point with scourge/support combo running in circles. Also, DH didn't corrupt every single boon on you (hello protection) which helped you to mitigate damage from DH, scourge on other hand....The list of the reasons is pretty long.

[shadowpass.4236]

@TheDevice.2751 said:Dragonhun- I mean Scourge.

My question is: what is the difference between the Scourge and DH (before PoF). When there were plenty of complaints about there being stacks of DH on each team and them deleting people who got too close to them?

Where are all the threads that are like "Stay out of their circles", "if you died in their circles, you deserved it", "get gud", "they are low skill ceiling" or my favorite "It's a L2P issue". The similarities are almost scary and you could pretty much say all those things about the scourge that people said about the DH as they all can potentially apply.

Whats the difference? Is it because Scourge is being supported by firebrand? And if thats the case, should we be disregarding all the complaints from lower-ranked players since its quite rare to see a scourge/fb duo below plat?

Btw, I think scourge should get nerfed. I just would like to know how this situation is different from the DH one.

I don't understand. In several of your discussions, you say that you feel Scourge should be nerfed. Yet, at the same time, say that you cannot see any of the reasons why Scourge is overpowered? It really doesn't make sense why you want something to be nerfed if you think it is perfectly balanced... lol

There aren't really any similarities between Dragonhunter and Scourge asides from the fact that they have AoE damage in a circle.

If a Dragonhunter could throw a trap onto you instantly from 1200 range while removing all of your boons and applying multiple stacks of every single damaging condition while overloading you with soft cc while simultaneously fearing you for 3 seconds repeatedly, then yes, I could see some similarities. As of now, there are very few and a comparison between the two does not make much sense.

[Ithilwen.1529]

Didn't I hear that the same person was responsible for designing both Scourge and DH?

[Loop.8106]

Scourge has been used in every mAT game past quarter finals and close to every AT finals / semis since they were released. DH was seen by 1 player in tournaments during the 2 year timespan.

Dh lost to Druid, Scrapper and Condi war on point. DH teamfighting damage was very limited due to Tempests projectile hate.If a DH ran full traps (as you're kind of indicating with your post) you're not only losing either condi cleanse or mobility / engage potential, you're losing the main bulk of your survivability with Renewed Focus.

So no, there are close to no similarities between Scourge and non trash-tier DH.

[Vapour.7348]

DH had lots of counters. Scourge on the other hand is a dirty, dirty spec.

[Malafaia.8903]

@TheDevice.2751 said:

Is it because Scourge is being supported by firebrand? And if thats the case, should we be disregarding all the complaints from lower-ranked players since its quite rare to see a scourge/fb duo below plat?

As a silver rank player i must tell you: never had seen this duo being played as it should be till the first tournment that i've played last week and... OH BOI, WHAT A CHAOS, lol.

[ArthurDent.9538]

The difference is that scourge is legitimately overpowered at high levels as well as low. Trap dragon-hunter was never much different than thief spamming unload, can be annoying when it kills you sometimes, but that is it.

[Jackalrat.5493]

See, you say there shouldn't be Scourge/FB duos below Plat, but as a Reaper player I constantly queue into Gold I - III games where there is 1 Scourge on my team and 2 Scourges on the enemy team with at least one FB in there and I have totally screwed my team over by playing Reaper.

I actually quit playing not just because I wasn't having fun with constant unwinnable fights but because I didn't wanna play that broken as hell Harry Potter wand flinging sand tird I was ruining the game for other people. They needed me to be a Scourge to be worth my position on their team.

[TheDevice.2751]

@shadowpass.4236 said:I don't understand. In several of your discussions, you say that you feel Scourge should be nerfed. Yet, at the same time, say that you cannot see any of the reasons why Scourge is overpowered? It really doesn't make sense why you want something to be nerfed if you think it is perfectly balanced... lol

There aren't really any similarities between Dragonhunter and Scourge asides from the fact that they have AoE damage in a circle.

If a Dragonhunter could throw a trap onto you instantly from 1200 range while removing all of your boons and applying multiple stacks of every single damaging condition while overloading you with soft cc while simultaneously fearing you for 3 seconds repeatedly, then yes, I could see some similarities. As of now, there are very few and a comparison between the two does not make much sense.

You're assuming I felt that DH was perfectly fine.

The thing about DH is they have great ranged weapon. Their bow could lock you down and then swap to gs to pull you in to their traps. Or swap to s/s and still ruin you from a good amount of range. Getting on the point was not an easy thing if you weren't a few select classes vs the DH.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Didn't I hear that the same person was responsible for designing both Scourge and DH?

That'd be pretty funny if it were true.

[brannigan.9831]

DH were never played at quite this level trust me. Close maybe but right now we are seeing probably 40% scourge represented in spvp in ranked. Its just about every match and often one side will have 3 of them. DH also ate many many nerfs.

[TheDevice.2751]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The difference is that scourge is legitimately overpowered at high levels as well as low. Trap dragon-hunter was never much different than thief spamming unload, can be annoying when it kills you sometimes, but that is it.

@Vapour.7348 said:DH had lots of counters. Scourge on the other hand is a dirty, dirty spec.

Don't Mesmer and Deadeye counter a scourge? You'd think at least a deadeye are almost purposely designed to hard counter a scourge. The thing about that is I rarely ever see people play deadeye. They're always running either some DD or even vanilla build. Its also pretty rare for me to see a Mirage have issues with a scourge.

[shadowpass.4236]

@TheDevice.2751 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:I don't understand. In several of your discussions, you say that you feel Scourge should be nerfed. Yet, at the same time, say that you cannot see any of the reasons why Scourge is overpowered? It really doesn't make sense why you want something to be nerfed if you think it is perfectly balanced... lol

There aren't really

any

similarities between Dragonhunter and Scourge asides from the fact that they have AoE damage in a circle.

If a Dragonhunter could throw a trap onto you instantly from 1200 range while removing all of your boons and applying multiple stacks of every single damaging condition while overloading you with soft cc while simultaneously fearing you for 3 seconds repeatedly, then yes, I could see some similarities. As of now, there are very few and a comparison between the two does not make much sense.

You're assuming I felt that DH was perfectly fine.

The thing about DH is they have great ranged weapon. Their bow could lock you down and then swap to gs to pull you in to their traps. Or swap to s/s and still ruin you from a good amount of range. Getting on the point was not an easy thing if you weren't a few select classes vs the DH.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Didn't I hear that the same person was responsible for designing both Scourge and DH?

That'd be pretty funny if it were true.

I'm not assuming anything. You're literally saying that you think Scourge should be nerfed, while simultaneously saying that you don't know why it should be nerfed. I'm saying that that doesn't make much sense.

Scourges' objectively have a better ranged weapon than Dragonhunters' do. A scourge can strip all of your boons and apply every condition while ccing you from 1200 range. A scourge's shades are way above the level a dragonhunter's longbow is, it doesn't even make sense to compare the two.

You're also acting like the "lockdown" on a DH's longbow isn't laughably easy to dodge, as is greatsword 5's animation. S/s? DH doesn't have access to offhand sword. If you mean s/sh, that makes more sense. Yet, even then, that weapon set can't "ruin you from a good amount of range." It's a melee weapon set.

Getting on a point vs. a DH is fairly easy as well. You can dodge the longbow 3, which has an obvious tell and huge animation, predict the shield 5, use stability, use a blink, etc. etc.

[Jeknar.6184]

@TheDevice.2751 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:The difference is that scourge is legitimately overpowered at high levels as well as low. Trap dragon-hunter was never much different than thief spamming unload, can be annoying when it kills you sometimes, but that is it.

@Vapour.7348 said:DH had lots of counters. Scourge on the other hand is a dirty, dirty spec.

Don't Mesmer and Deadeye counter a scourge? You'd think at least a deadeye are almost purposely designed to hard counter a scourge. The thing about that is I rarely ever see people play deadeye. They're always running either some DD or even vanilla build. Its also pretty rare for me to see a Mirage have issues with a scourge.

Because DE is only good at fighting scourges and complete garbage against anything else.

[Arheundel.6451]

Hands down....scourge is easier to kill than a DH by a mile

-no blocks-no invulnerability-no burst heals at 0 healing power-no 1200 teleport

Looking past all the bias, hyperboles and more...I simply don't see how it is possible to compare scourge to dh, chronomancers or scrapper ( basically block spamming cancer specs)

It is possible currently to 2 shot a scourge, something impossible with dh-chrono or scrapper

[Vitali.5039]

Scourge's red circles jumps at you and i'm not talking about Ghastly Breach.

Trap DH is not ok: traps should gain CD even when triggered (major offender: point watcher DH with double ToF pin/push or 4/5wtftraps build)

Scourge's Big Shade is not ok: skills with potential area denial shouldn't have the chance to get placed three times in a row. Decrease the CD even more but remove that sick ammo mechanic when Sand Savant is picked!

[MethaneGas.8357]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@TheDevice.2751 said:Don't Mesmer and Deadeye counter a scourge? You'd think at least a deadeye are almost purposely designed to hard counter a scourge. The thing about that is I rarely ever see people play deadeye. They're always running either some DD or even vanilla build. Its also pretty rare for me to see a Mirage have issues with a scourge.

Because DE is only good at fighting scourges and complete garbage against anything else.

I don't think so. Deadeye right now isn't far off from the nerfed daredevil and even core s/d thief. If the enemy has 2 Scourges, going with a Deadeye might actually be a good idea, if it wrecks them.

[Razor.6392]

• DH couldn't cast circles on top of you.
• DH didn't have an ammo spammable system on those circles.
• DH did a lot of power damage, which could be mitigated in many ways.

Scourge throws any semblance of skillful play out of the window. It's funny how both DH and Scourge are both braindead specs. Spam away with little to no regard for cooldowns.

[narcx.3570]

@Razor.6392 said:

• DH couldn't cast circles on top of you.
• DH didn't have an ammo spammable system on those circles.
• DH did a lot of power damage, which could be mitigated in many ways.

This, coupled with the amount of "bonus" AoE cleansing and barriers that the scourge provides to his teammates from what are essentially his offensive abilities.

Also, scourge has ranged unblockable cc to drop on you in addition to their shades. If a one-tricking DH teleported on top of you and dropped all his traps, you could still stunbreak/block them.

[Loboling.5293]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                ............

[TheDevice.2751]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@TheDevice.2751 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:I don't understand. In several of your discussions, you say that you feel Scourge should be nerfed. Yet, at the same time, say that you cannot see any of the reasons why Scourge is overpowered? It really doesn't make sense why you want something to be nerfed if you think it is perfectly balanced... lol

There aren't really

any

similarities between Dragonhunter and Scourge asides from the fact that they have AoE damage in a circle.

If a Dragonhunter could throw a trap onto you instantly from 1200 range while removing all of your boons and applying multiple stacks of every single damaging condition while overloading you with soft cc while simultaneously fearing you for 3 seconds repeatedly, then yes, I could see some similarities. As of now, there are very few and a comparison between the two does not make much sense.

You're assuming I felt that DH was perfectly fine.

The thing about DH is they have great ranged weapon. Their bow could lock you down and then swap to gs to pull you in to their traps. Or swap to s/s and still ruin you from a good amount of range. Getting on the point was not an easy thing if you weren't a few select classes vs the DH.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Didn't I hear that the same person was responsible for designing both Scourge and DH?

That'd be pretty funny if it were true.

I'm not assuming anything. You're literally saying that you think Scourge should be nerfed, while simultaneously saying that you don't know

why

it should be nerfed. I'm saying that

that

doesn't make much sense.

Scourges' objectively have a better ranged weapon than Dragonhunters' do. A scourge can strip all of your boons and apply every condition while ccing you from 1200 range. A scourge's shades are way above the level a dragonhunter's longbow is, it doesn't even make sense to compare the two.

I've already said scourge should get nerfed. I already know the reason why they should get nerfed. When I say "how are they different" that means I also thought DH were just as oppressive as scourge are now. They were stacked, they dominated the ladder, people blew up when they got too close to them, and I guess they might even have been designed by the same person.

"a scourges shades a way above the level of a DH longbow" sounds a bit more like hyperbole than anything. You pretend there's no cast time for shades and that the shades have some enormous AOE. Unless you've traited for the Larger shade, the aoe of the shades are not that impressive. They're like half the size of wells. There's also a clear difference between the two in that one is a bit more offensive (Scourge) while the other is more defensive (DH). Dh has plenty of ways to survive while scourge can still be focused down, just not so much from melee range anymore.

What I'm saying is, I already know why they should be nerfed, and they're pretty much the same reasons as I thought DH should have been.

You're also acting like the "lockdown" on a DH's longbow isn't laughably easy to dodge, as is greatsword 5's animation. S/s? DH doesn't have access to offhand sword. If you mean s/sh, that makes more sense. Yet, even then, that weapon set can't "ruin you from a good amount of range." It's a melee weapon set.

DH bow is a great long range weapon. I dont know why you'd think thats not a great source of ranged damage. I did mean S/Sh and S has a great ranged damage source on s3. Rotations make it a good ranged supplement in-between LB.

Getting on a point vs. a DH is fairly easy as well. You can dodge the longbow 3, which has an obvious tell and huge animation, predict the shield 5, use stability, use a blink, etc. etc.

Getting on point vs a Scourge is fairly easy. You just have to cc them away from the point (pull, knockback, etc), cc them again, and blow them up from ranged. Scourge have the same lack of stability as necro's have always had. Or just have a DE, Ranger, or Mirage just blow them up. Doesn't that sound easy? Necro's have no invuln, no blocks, no built-in access to bonus endurance, no evades, no stealth, and, again, very little access to stability.

If the animations are the real culprit here, why isn't that the focus of everyone's complaints?

Everyone is playing against the scourge the same way they've always played against a necro: focus down to death. Now that you can't do the same thing against the scourge, could that be the real issue? I mean DH were just as numerous, just as oppressive on points, and had much of the same bullet point complants yet there were far more people simply saying its a L2P issue. As there are certainly ways to beat a scourge, why isn't the same reasoning applied?

For me, I think both the DH and the Scourge had/have(respectively) too much impact on the game. I specifically had to play my reaper a certain way most the time in the ladder just for DH, and I'm probably going to have to do the same thing if I want to climb but now with scourge in mind. They are quite polarizing. Somehow people find ways to claim DH was never just as polarizing as scourge is now. I don't really agree.

[Kuya.6495]

The similarity: both low skill floor obnoxious elite specs

the difference: scourge is actually in the meta

also, imagine a full trapper dh that can cast traps at 1200 range. that's pretty much what scourge is now. the condi version of it with boon corrupts.

[TheDevice.2751]

@narcx.3570 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

• DH couldn't cast circles on top of you.
• DH didn't have an ammo spammable system on those circles.
• DH did a lot of power damage, which could be mitigated in many ways.

This, coupled with the amount of "bonus" AoE cleansing and barriers that the scourge provides to his teammates from what are essentially his offensive abilities.

Also, scourge has ranged unblockable cc to drop on you in addition to their shades. If a one-tricking DH teleported on top of you and dropped all his traps, you could still stunbreak/block them.

Well again, you're just listing why the necro overall is a better offensive class. If we are just listing what the other class can't do then..Scourge doesn't have access to any blocksScourge doesn't have any access to invulnScourge have little access to stabilityScourge have low mobilityScourge have no real way to mitigate damage outside barrier and maybe protection (or dodge)Scourge are far more susceptible to ranged damage than DH. They have no real mobility or blinks the way DH do. Dh also have various ways to block incoming ranged attacks.

[ZhouX.8742]

Scourge itself does have counters, the issue is it's camped by firebrand supports which make it pretty much godlike.

[Cynz.9437]

@MethaneGas.8357 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@TheDevice.2751 said:Don't Mesmer and Deadeye counter a scourge? You'd think at least a deadeye are almost purposely designed to hard counter a scourge. The thing about that is I rarely ever see people play deadeye. They're always running either some DD or even vanilla build. Its also pretty rare for me to see a Mirage have issues with a scourge.

Because DE is only good at fighting scourges and complete garbage against anything else.

I don't think so. Deadeye right now isn't far off from the nerfed daredevil and even core s/d thief. If the enemy has 2 Scourges, going with a Deadeye might actually be a good idea, if it wrecks them.

LOL DE is garbage. Anyone with halfbrain and some awareness can kill it easily. Surely, in lower ranks you can play DE (you can play anything really) but in higher ranks people will focus you before you can even mark necro.

Also what poster before me said. FB + scourge is super upgraded version of reaper + support ele.