The problem with PvP

[Zombiesbum.3502]

Intro

Ever since I've returned to Gw2 a few weeks ago (from playing back in 2012/13) I cant help but shake the feeling that PvP is vastly worse than I remember, maybe I remember things wrong, or maybe I'm just really bad at PvP. I did manage to get the 2v2 Elite title as a post-nerf mechanist while playing solo Q. This isn't a brag, but more of a reference for my skill level (or lack thereof), because that matters to some people apparently. For the record, I don't think that tittle is very difficult to get with how small the sPvP playerbase is currently. 

There are a few problems I'd like to discuss here. I'm also talking primarily about sPvP here too, not WvW PvP.

 

Power Creep

From what I see, the damage and skills that elite specs bring heavily outweigh core specs. Yes there are a few core specs that can do okay at holding nodes, roaming, and/or support/control roles. But the general rule is that elite specs are just better. That's not to say you can't make a core spec work, but you aren't going to be breaking many records (there are always exceptions). 

As a side note; even though this is a PvP thread, core specs do even worse in PvE content. Yes, you can make anything work in open world, but that's pretty much irrelevant in my opinion. 

Part the issue with elite specs is they unlock too much potential. You simply get too many goodies for elite specs, where as taking a 3rd core trait line gives you less than taking an elite spec. This is a fundamental problem with specs overall, and unless Anet want core specs to be inferior then I think this problem should be addressed, both for PvP and PvE sake. 

The solution here is to either scrape back what elite specs grant, and/or give core specs something of their own. Maybe extra traits for core, or even uncoupling spec-related skills and/or weapons. I think something should be done to bring core specs closer to elite specs.

 

Time-To-Kill (TTK), Skill Floor, and Active Defences

The TTK is far shorter than it use to be (at least that's how I feel). When a condi daredevil can burst a trillion damage in 1 second, then you've got a problem. It's a case of "dodge or you suck", this is obviously really bad design as you've now raised the entry level for fighting other players. If you don't know to dodge certain skills, then you die and look like a utter noob. This is especially bad when certain high damaging skills are not telegraphed very well. And so this adds a bigger emphasis on bringing more active defences (active defences being dodges, blocks, invulns, etc) and mobility tools. No matter what amulet, stats, and traits you bring to a character, if you don't nullify a players burst, you are deleted. This sort of fast pace gameplay fun to watch, but frustrating to play, especially when you are new to the game and are unfamiliar with most specs. This problem also gets progressively worse as more and more specs/content are added to classes. It's like playing league now vs playing league 10 year ago; you've got 100 more champions to memorize.

The skill floor for PvP is simply too high, because not only do you need to know what your class can do, but you need to know what the other class can do. This isn't as much of a problem when a player doesn't inevitably die due to 1 or 2 mistakes. But currently making even 1 mistake means you die (depending on spec). I think more mistakes should be allowed before you lose a fight, fights in general should be longer for all classes/specs (but not endless). This would mean a cutback of offensive capabilities, less active defences, and/or bigger health pools. By increasing the TTK (idle/raw TTK) then I think more casual players wouldn't be put off PvP and it would help to alleviate the current minimum skill floor requirement.

 

Diminishing Returns

I don't know why there aren't diminishing returns in GW2 when it comes to things like crowd control. There is nothing fun about being unable to move because a Stunbreaker, I mean Spellbreaker decides you should no longer move. If you are meant to dodge all CC, then why is there CC that has next to no telegraphing? I often hear the phrase "just dodge" like it's an episode of DBZ abridged. I have a philosophy that if something is added to the game, then it is designed to be used and be effective, else it's useless. This means if something is in the current meta (or is very strong) then most players don't "just dodge", because they can't or aren't meant to outside of "prediction" (this isn't to say all CC skills are equal, some are telegraphed).

However, the real problem here is you can't dodge while CCed, so you either hope your stunbreak isn't on CD, or you sit their helplessly CC chained. Which is why I'm confused as to the lack of diminishing returns. And I've lost count of the amount of time's I've used a stun break the second I get CCed and still get CCed from another source.

Additionally, immobilizes are far too powerful due to the way conditions are cleansed (order wise) and what it actually does to your character. I think immobilized characters should at least still be able to dodge "in place". Either that or rework conditions to be cleansed from most dangerous to least. Though that can open the door to debate of what's more dangerous; a burn that will kill you in seconds, or an immobilize that will allow you to be killed in seconds.

I also think active defences should have diminishing returns of sorts. I think skills like blocks, reflects, invulns, non-dodge evades, etc. shouldn't be chain-able, as this leaves certain specs in a position to be near unkillable at times. And I'm not saying that once you've used a block, then you can't use anything else, but I think other active defences should work to a lesser degree once you've either been affected by such skills or negated a certain threshold of attacks.

 

Ranked vs Unranked

I'm not a fan of forcing players to play ranked to gain pips, there is already plenty of reason to play ranked (for the legendary). People may get mad at me for training a new spec/class in ranked, but the game rewards me more for it.

The game enticing players to play ranked regardless of their skill level or effectiveness on a particular spec/class is just silly further makes ranked play less enjoyable for everyone. Part of the issue is that your rank is tied to your account rather than class/spec, but there isn't a way to fix this without removing the ability to swap classes/specs at the start of a match. And you cannot expect players to not play ranked if their primary goal is to earn pips, even if they suck at a new class at a higher rank than how they play it. 

It is for this reason that I think unranked play should reward pips. I also think this would encourage more players to play PvP as rank anxiety is a real thing that should not be ignored.

 

Matchmaking

Lastly, the match making. It's bad, shamefully bad. The amount of times I see plat players being matched with silver players is too often. And for what? So the queues are shorter? The issue is that any match isn't always better than no match. Seeing players not of your level (whether higher or lower) only brings frustration and fuels toxicity in the mode. The obvious reason for the poor matchmaking is that there just aren't enough players that play PvP. But I think the reasons I listed above are why there aren't many players.

 

/rant

Edited January 10, 2023 by Zombiesbum.3502

[Kuma.1503]

Ignoring all matchmaking related issues, the biggest issue with PvP is honestly... Animations. 

 

The readability in this game is atrocious. The poor readability of fights is why this game will never succeed as a spectator sport. Viewers need to have a lot of game knowledge to decipher what's happening at any given time, and even if they have that knowledge it can still be uncertain what a person is doing unless you're literally watching their cooldown bar. 

 

Particle effects play after a move has already connected. Hand waving can be completely obscured by random particles such as auras, ground AoE's, damage splashes, distortion effects, ect. If the enemy is an asura their entire model can become obscured by the damage splat alone, so reading any hand wave animations (Like spinal shivers) is impossible. 

The end result is that it feels like builds just... do things to you. You fight someone, they sort of vaguely flail around a bit, damage happens, you flail around a bit, damage happens at them, and eventually more people get involved in the flailing until someone pops into downstate. If you lose, it's difficult to understand why or what exactly killed you. So if someone fights a matchup they can't win, people can get frustrated and just default to "that build OP" because they have absoluely no clue what the opponent is doing on a moment to moment basis, and no way to re-evaluate the fight they lost. That is unless they record it and go frame by frame to analyze what the other person is doing. 

 

A perfect example of all of the above is a class I love to play. Catalyst. You fight one and what do you see? AOE's stacked on AoEs.  Orbs constantly rotating around the player. Multiple stacked auras that make it difficult to tell which auras they have. Spirit animals dancing on the node. Now imagine the catalyst is an asura. Good luck catching that vague hand wave animation before a phoenix crits you in the face for 7k. 

 

If there's anything that would really, REALLY make PvP better to get into for new players. It's fixing this game's animations. New players just can't tell wtf is killing them, and half the time vets can't either. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Silinsar.6298]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Ignoring all matchmaking related issues, the biggest issue with PvP is honestly... Animations. 

 

The readability in this game is atrocious. The poor readability of fights is why this game will never succeed as a spectator sport. Viewers need to have a lot of game knowledge to decipher what's happening at any given time, and even if they have that knowledge it can still be uncertain what a person is doing unless you're literally watching their cooldown bar. 

 

Particle effects play after a move has already connected. Hand waving can be completely obscured by random particles such as auras, ground AoE's, damage splashes, distortion effects, ect. If the enemy is an asura their entire model can become obscured by the damage splat alone, so reading any hand wave animations (Like spinal shivers) is impossible. 

The end result is that it feels like builds just... do things to you. You fight someone, they sort of vaguely flail around a bit, damage happens, you flail around a bit, damage happens at them, and eventually more people get involved in the flailing until someone pops into downstate. If you lose, it's difficult to understand why or what exactly killed you. So if someone fights a matchup they can't win, people can get frustrated and just default to "that build OP" because they have absoluely no clue what the opponent is doing on a moment to moment basis, and no way to re-evaluate the fight they lost. That is unless they record it and go frame by frame to analyze what the other person is doing. 

 

A perfect example of all of the above is a class I love to play. Catalyst. You fight one and what do you see? AOE's stacked on AoEs.  Orbs constantly rotating around the player. Multiple stacked auras that make it difficult to tell which auras they have. Spirit animals dancing on the node. Now imagine the catalyst is an asura. Good luck catching that vague hand wave animation before a phoenix crits you in the face for 7k. 

 

If there's anything that would really, REALLY make PvP better to get into for new players. It's fixing this game's animations. New players just can't tell wtf is killing them, and half the time vets can't either. 

Oh yeah, even 1vs1 engagements can be full of visual noise, depending on what is fighting what.

 

And it's not just that some things are barely noticeable, it's also that the size / intensity of the effects mismatch the impact. Minor field effects that (de-)buff a little can be huge and imposing, while "hand wave" skills wreck you and game deciding effects show up as a little icon between dozen. It can be hard to tell if you're still in the range of PBAoE effects (and how they'll behave on slopes, but that's a whole other topic). There's pop-up text for miss / evade / block but none for projectile reflection, destruction or hitting stab. Some effects linger longer than their animation persists. Animations on channeled skills tend to get stuck. Some weapons replace animations with ones that are even harder to tell (apart). Etc., etc.

 

Sometimes I wish GW2 had cast bars like GW1. Relying on cast and effect animations and visuals failed. They wouldn't solve everything but help in some scenarios and make the game a bit more transparent about what is happening.

[Sahne.6950]

i wanted to write: even a "newcomer" can quickly spot the flaws with gw2 pvp.... why cant anet?

but then he wrote something about Condidaredevil bursting 200k in 1 second.....       so i wont.

[Zombiesbum.3502]

11 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i wanted to write: even a "newcomer" can quickly spot the flaws with gw2 pvp.... why cant anet?

but then he wrote something about Condidaredevil bursting 200k in 1 second.....       so i wont.

I was over emphasising the amount of burst certain specs have. I thought that would be pretty clear. I've edited it now so it's even more clear. My apologies.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Zombiesbum.3502

[Dr Meta.3158]

14 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Ignoring all matchmaking related issues, the biggest issue with PvP is honestly... Animations. 

 

The readability in this game is atrocious. The poor readability of fights is why this game will never succeed as a spectator sport. Viewers need to have a lot of game knowledge to decipher what's happening at any given time, and even if they have that knowledge it can still be uncertain what a person is doing unless you're literally watching their cooldown bar. 

 

Particle effects play after a move has already connected. Hand waving can be completely obscured by random particles such as auras, ground AoE's, damage splashes, distortion effects, ect. If the enemy is an asura their entire model can become obscured by the damage splat alone, so reading any hand wave animations (Like spinal shivers) is impossible. 

The end result is that it feels like builds just... do things to you. You fight someone, they sort of vaguely flail around a bit, damage happens, you flail around a bit, damage happens at them, and eventually more people get involved in the flailing until someone pops into downstate. If you lose, it's difficult to understand why or what exactly killed you. So if someone fights a matchup they can't win, people can get frustrated and just default to "that build OP" because they have absoluely no clue what the opponent is doing on a moment to moment basis, and no way to re-evaluate the fight they lost. That is unless they record it and go frame by frame to analyze what the other person is doing. 

 

A perfect example of all of the above is a class I love to play. Catalyst. You fight one and what do you see? AOE's stacked on AoEs.  Orbs constantly rotating around the player. Multiple stacked auras that make it difficult to tell which auras they have. Spirit animals dancing on the node. Now imagine the catalyst is an asura. Good luck catching that vague hand wave animation before a phoenix crits you in the face for 7k. 

 

If there's anything that would really, REALLY make PvP better to get into for new players. It's fixing this game's animations. New players just can't tell wtf is killing them, and half the time vets can't either. 

Honestly this is the most important post here. This is pretty much why, back when mesmer was popular enough to be two per team, mesmers wrecked new players so hard. You have clones of the player all doing different random things, screeching noises, flashing lights, tons of movement everywhere, particle effects left and right and on a class thats built to kill in less than a second with times even out of stealth. I'm sure that's not medically good for people to deal with either. 

Then there's a bunch of visual bugs that have never and will never be fixed. This game is very frustrating to invest into for many, many reasons but this is a major contributor.

[Ovark.2514]

Well Said! I think the diminishing returns for CC would be clunky to implement and the better choice might be to just cull the amount of available CCs classes have.

[baldr.9784]

Agree with everything.

[Crab Fear.8623]

TTK is objectively longer than before the 2020 patch.

Now, if it takes less time to kill you specifically, that is a YOU problem.

Damage is lower, cooldowns are longer, amulets and runes are weaker, sigils don't add anything..

You are out of practice, and need to get more games in before you start writing essays in the forums.

[Sahne.6950]

11 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

I was over emphasising the amount of burst certain specs have. I thought that would be pretty clear. I've edited it now so it's even more clear. My apologies.

Haha buddy 😄

It wasnt about the 200k... it was pretty clear it was just overexxageration!

What boggled me was that your example of a class with high burst.....is "CondiDaredevil". I havent met a condidaredevil in ages.... or wait... there is one... This "Ivor Dangleberry - i call everyone a hacker, because i am delusional-dude"... Everyone in EU should know him 😄

But other than that you hit the nail on the head here.  Mindblowing that a "newcomer/returner" can spot the problems, but not Anet themselves.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Avatar.3568]

The DMG 2012/13 was signifikantly Higher than now, players went in General better.

I agreed With you that especs heavily impacted on what classes can Bring on the Table, but most of them are comparable to Core specs in PvP at least. Yeah some are way better (eps the warrior, ele and engi specs) but nothing Like it is in PvE.

 

Back than the learning curve was lower because it was less matchups to learn.

Condi deliverance got a buff since than but you have now also way more ways to avoid the DMG and cleanse the condis.

The Game got a Lot faster, and as hard aß i Loved Core PvP, it was Not as good as it is now. The barrier to enter PvP Just raised Up a Lot.

[Greyrat.2378]

Hard agree with Kuma.

This is a problem I have with PvP in GW2 right from the start, except now it's even more obnoxious with some specs (like catalyst).

The amount of visual clutter and hard to read animations, which is in my eyes the biggest culprit, are notorious in this game and so far I don't see that ANet is planning on doing anything about it.

I can understand that PvP in GW2 can be/is more about predicting your opponent, rather than directly reacting to visual cues of what your opponent is about to do, but I find it personally very difficult to keep track of anything once the fight turns into brawl of more than 2 people in 1v1 situation, and even there I find some specs extremely unreadable due to animations (or complete lack of in case of instant casts that are actually important to be aware of).

Playing other specs is at some point mandatory if you want to have at least some basic idea what to expect and how to react, and that's something to be expected if someone wants to play this mode on a bit more competetive level, however that does not really solve the main problem.

 

(not to mention PvE where it feels like someone constantly vomits bunch of rainbows all over my screen and it's just complete clusterf*ck)

edit: the UI could use some rework as well, specifically boons and conditions to make them more readable, sometimes it's a heavy mess

Edited January 12, 2023 by Greyrat.2378
spelling + some additional rant about UI

[coro.3176]

16 hours ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

TTK is objectively longer than before the 2020 patch.

Now, if it takes less time to kill you specifically, that is a YOU problem.

Damage is lower, cooldowns are longer, amulets and runes are weaker, sigils don't add anything..

You are out of practice, and need to get more games in before you start writing essays in the forums.

I think you missed the part where OP said "(from playing back in 2012/13) ". TTK in 2012/2013 was much longer. A lot of people started playing recently.

Here's what it was like just before HoT launch.

[Sahne.6950]

14 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

I think you missed the part where OP said "(from playing back in 2012/13) ". TTK in 2012/2013 was much longer. A lot of people started playing recently.

Here's what it was like just before HoT launch.

oh boy the nostalgia.....    Is it just me or were the animations alot more crisp back then?  the visualclutter wasnt nearly as bad as it is now... 

[Ragnar.4257]

15 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

I think you missed the part where OP said "(from playing back in 2012/13) ". TTK in 2012/2013 was much longer. A lot of people started playing recently.

Here's what it was like just before HoT launch.

I dunno, my memory of the first year of the game was mainly people complaining about getting 1-shot by backstab-thieves and frenzy-bullscharge warriors. Did that stuff work at high-level? No. But then today at high-level fights also take a long time.

The key difference is what Kuma said, that everything was so much clearer.

[Jagdtiger.2517]

I think the biggest problem is and always has been balancing. Arenanet doesn't know how to balance the game at all. They always do massive sweeping changes that make some classes unplayable, and other broken. This makes casual players quit the game when their class becomes garbage, or when they get farmed by a high level player playing a broken spec. Arenanet hasn't learned after 8 years and they probably never will. I don't really understand how they're that incompetent.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:07 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

Ignoring all matchmaking related issues, the biggest issue with PvP is honestly... Catalyst. 

There, fixed this statement.

[Zombiesbum.3502]

On 1/13/2023 at 4:15 AM, Jagdtiger.2517 said:

I think the biggest problem is and always has been balancing. Arenanet doesn't know how to balance the game at all. They always do massive sweeping changes that make some classes unplayable, and other broken. This makes casual players quit the game when their class becomes garbage, or when they get farmed by a high level player playing a broken spec. Arenanet hasn't learned after 8 years and they probably never will. I don't really understand how they're that incompetent.

I will agree that the changes I see when it comes to balancing are often very heavy handed. Like increasing a certain coefficient by absurd amounts only to revert those changes a patch later. When Anet buffs or nerfs something (without a mechanical rework) by more than 15-20% I think they've got to stop to ask why is this skill/feature in this state to begin with. 

I do wish Anet would make smaller changes more frequently as sometimes nuking a skill or feature can and does have ripple effects.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Zombiesbum.3502

[Sahne.6950]

30 minutes ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

I will agree that the changes I see when it comes to balancing are often very heavy handed. Like increasing a certain coefficient by absurd amounts only to revert those changes a patch later. When Anet buffs or nerfs something (without a mechanical rework) by more than 15-20% I think they've got to stop to ask why is this skill/feature in this state to begin with. 

I do wish Anet would make smaller changes more frequently as sometimes nuking a skill or feature can and does have ripple effects.

league of legends: increased the dmg of this one skill by 1,5% and added 5 base hp.

Gw2: Reduced power coefficient from 0.25 to 0.05

Edited January 16, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Zombiesbum.3502]

35 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

league of legends: increased the dmg of this one skill by 1,5% and added 5 base hp.

Gw2: Reduced power coefficient from 0.25 to 0.05

Yeah, pretty much. League goes in the total opposite direction, which is equally as bad at times.

[Dreams.3128]

4 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

I will agree that the changes I see when it comes to balancing are often very heavy handed. Like increasing a certain coefficient by absurd amounts only to revert those changes a patch later. When Anet buffs or nerfs something (without a mechanical rework) by more than 15-20% I think they've got to stop to ask why is this skill/feature in this state to begin with. 

I do wish Anet would make smaller changes more frequently as sometimes nuking a skill or feature can and does have ripple effects.

This is my biggest gripe and while I look at other people that suggest nerfs as if they grown a second head. Clubbing a spec into the ground doesn't DO anything productive. For example, Scourge and Firebrand where dominating literally everywhere? What happens? Anet nerfs it into the floor and made it become unplayable. What happens after that? I cannot remember exactly, but I think that is when Renegade had gotten HUGE buffs, so it became condi Renegade basically forever staying on a point and not being able to be killed unless two power specs flew in to take it down. Granted, my memory is spotty so it probably wasn't Renegade that took Scourge/Firebrand's spot, but some class definitely rose and became just as problematic as those two.

It's just a cycle and some people here really advocate to perpetuate that cycle so they can have their favorite spec broken.

[Ragnar.4257]

Really?

Because for every massive over-nerf/buff, I'm pretty sure I can name 10 other occasions where pointlessly small nerfs/buffs have happened that changed literally nothing.

[Khalisto.5780]

I'd start fixing matchmaking and report system

 

Reports system not work is number 1 reason why low rated matches are bad

 

At least half of gold 1 matches are lower have some sort of rage afk

 

Matchmaking needs some band aid fix

 

5 mins q for a 1800 player to be matched with gold 1 is so wrong, removing duo would be great in that matter too.

[Fleabite.7528]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:22 AM, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Lastly, the match making. It's bad, shamefully bad. The amount of times I see plat players being matched with silver players is too often.

This. We've still a month of this season left, and the matchmaking is appalling given the present very low PvP population. A fair fight is almost unheard of. Just a culling. How to drive away a playerbase! 

I've given up on mornings now, hoping there's at least more chance of a fair matching in the evening. 

[cyberzombie.7348]

In regards to ttk and power creep, my gripe is that compared to vanilla there's too much going on to properly assess a group fight. And while yes the damage was high back then, but it was dampened by its relatively low apm along with the risk and rewards that came with certain mechanics.

I'd say it started around 2015, beforehand using things like warrior's f1 would be a risk/reward between playing conservatively to have better sustain, or deal extra damage with the risk of loosing passive heal. Thieves had to learn to pace their initiative usage to maximize damage. Quickness skills could be used for quick stomps or revivals, but it stunted stamina generation. Torment and confusion didn't take serious effect until the conditions were met. Engineer's overcharged shot was a self knockback so you had to make sure you either had stability or synapse overload to negate it. And for more recent examples, mirage and vindicator used to be single dodge to keep it mechanically balanced.

TL;DR: There's a lot more to balancing than just tweaking numbers, and sometimes skills need deliberate drawbacks to keep them in check.