Idea how to Nerf spellbreaker without touching Warrior

[Avatar.3568]

The mechanic of spb is fullcounter, one of the best skills in the Game

It best usecase is to use it reactive, however some spam it useless and Hope enemys Attack into it. Here xomes the Clou

 

Add a Higher cooldown to fullcounter IF it gets Not procced

This is a win for everybody in the Fight, spellbreaker that use it correctly will still have the Same cooldown, Players that can stow their attacks, get value Out of reacting to full counter and spb that Just use it for nothing get punished hard.

 

Idk what cooldown increase maybe x1.5/X2 but this could Help against Hammer Warrior without touching core weapons Like Hammer 

[Sahne.6950]

Good idea, adding Counterplay is always a good approach to balancing.

But i will note, that i think the baselineCD is too low. Adding 2 seconds to the cooldown, might already seal the deal.

But nevertheless i like this idea^^ just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Greyrat.2378]

BaselineCD should be raised nonetheless. There are situations where it's almost impossible to not procc the FC and you can easily abuse it to your own advantage.
Other than that I agree, I think it's a solid idea.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Greyrat.2378

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The CD is reduced too much by Versatile Power due to a bug currently, and no Spellbreaker, Corewar, or Berserker runs in competitive play without Discipline. Fixing the bug would actually add 2s to its CD when traited and achieve the overall effect being proposed here without dumpstering the spec.

[Disney.7826]

4 hours ago, Avatar.3568 said:

The mechanic of spb is fullcounter, one of the best skills in the Game

It best usecase is to use it reactive, however some spam it useless and Hope enemys Attack into it. Here xomes the Clou

 

Add a Higher cooldown to fullcounter IF it gets Not procced

This is a win for everybody in the Fight, spellbreaker that use it correctly will still have the Same cooldown, Players that can stow their attacks, get value Out of reacting to full counter and spb that Just use it for nothing get punished hard.

 

Idk what cooldown increase maybe x1.5/X2 but this could Help against Hammer Warrior without touching core weapons Like Hammer 

Tether duration to 4-5 sec

[Fueki.4753]

Fix Versatile Power's CD reduction bug for Full Counter and it'll be significantly better already.

There's no need for additional nerfs, one bug fix is sufficient.

[Khalisto.5780]

Good suggestion, but they gonna nerf the stab on cc trait anyways

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Correct but:

 

>See posts about versatile power bug

>Note most people are currently mad af about being on the bottom of a hammer and not full counter

[Avatar.3568]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Correct but:

 

>See posts about versatile power bug

>Note most people are currently mad af about being on the bottom of a hammer and not full counter

Well yes Hammer is problematic and i See nerfs comming for it, but i rly don't want that Core and other specs have to suffer when its hardly opressing on one Spec.

And fullcounter With Hammer is Just to strong in Combination as it is now. 

You get him once to a Bad state and some random Ranger procs His fullcounter With lb1 and you have to live With 20, Seconds of Stab again

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Not sure where that 20s of stability is coming from, but having a teammate kitten over your fight has more to do with your teammate than Spellbreaker.

[Zombiesbum.3502]

It's very easy to trigger full counter because it's instant, you can't react in time to stow your weapon if the sb uses full counter as an attack lands. This means the suggested change isn't a "counterplay" for players playing against it. The problem is much deeper than SBs imo. PvP overall is just really badly designed due to how much powercreep has been introduced to the game.

Things aren't clear enough, players die WAY to fast (making active defences the only way to be tanky), and there aren't enough players that play PvP so you often end up matched with players either way higher or way lower rated.

[Leonidrex.5649]

18 hours ago, Avatar.3568 said:

The mechanic of spb is fullcounter, one of the best skills in the Game

It best usecase is to use it reactive, however some spam it useless and Hope enemys Attack into it. Here xomes the Clou

 

Add a Higher cooldown to fullcounter IF it gets Not procced

This is a win for everybody in the Fight, spellbreaker that use it correctly will still have the Same cooldown, Players that can stow their attacks, get value Out of reacting to full counter and spb that Just use it for nothing get punished hard.

 

Idk what cooldown increase maybe x1.5/X2 but this could Help against Hammer Warrior without touching core weapons Like Hammer 

I was always of the opining that counter skills, like warriors mace, full counter or mesmers sword 4. Should have VERY short durations like 0,5-0.75s.
its really kittening weird to me that you can run with this up for so long

[Kuma.1503]

I like solutions like this. 

Others have noted a full counter bug as well. 

Imo they should bug fix first. See where SpB falls. And then nerf again if needed. 

[Hotride.2187]

How about nerfing defense and buffing berserker and/or bladesworn? I keep reading "dont nerf core" yet core will continue to be useless, like most core builds on all professions.

Adding extra CD if FC doesnt get attacked into will do very little almost all of the time. More nerfs will be needed.

[Myror.7521]

Still to me spellbrakers fc is just one of the if not the best Designed mechanic cause you can counter it allready by not hit in it or just dodge it soooo idk about that one xd. Tho yes its cc how ever is a bit too mutch in comb with Hammer/Dagger, Shield but yea. There are builds (like Catalyst) that are actually more problematic that this clunky cc spam build. To me at least 😆.

 

Yea maybe its CD is just too short but that comes to its current Bug with discipline. Fix this and we might be fine with it Overall.

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

Still to me spellbrakers fc is just one of the if not the best Designed mechanic cause you can counter it allready by not hit in it or just dodge it soooo idk about that one xd. Tho yes its cc how ever is a bit too mutch in comb with Hammer/Dagger, Shield but yea. There are builds (like Catalyst) that are actually more problematic that this clunky cc spam build. To me at least 😆.

 

Yea maybe its CD is just too short but that comes to its current Bug with discipline. Fix this and we might be fine with it Overall.

Have you EVER fought a Spellbreaker, while you werent a spellbreaker/warrior yourself?

For the majority of the pack, its not possible to just instantly pause your attacks should you see the FC is going up. There is lingering damage effects, slow projectiles, aoes, clones... yada yada. Good luck telling your clones to stop attacking. 😂

Dodging it is the only viable counterplay for alot of builds.... and conditioning your opponent to burn a dodge every 8 seconds.... with your defensive mechanic... is preeetty strong.

I think FC was fine, when Warrior was dogtier, but right now... with the new defensetraitline... its just way to much sustain.

And i am not sure, if fixing the bug is enough.... Maybe its enough, i honestly dont know. But i feel like they have to adress the resistance duration the spb currently has, aswell.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Myror.7521]

@Sahne.6950 well fair enough. But have you mentioned that most classes that got all this are just "magic classes"? I mean spec is not called spellbraker for no reason ;p. 

 

Okay Jokes aside ^^. I get that spellbraker is pretty strong against mes (when played on dagger) and necro and guardian. Juust by the fact that dagger f1 and full counter are both unblockable^^. Also the reason why I like this spec. It gains ya the oppotunity to counterplay classes where you would not stand any chance against when played on core or Berserker cause of too many Blocks blinds and/or invulns^^. 

 

EDIT: yeah I am Main warr but does not mean im not playing other classes. I could smash spells mostly in 1v1s pretty ezy ..... how ever its a bit harder on aoe builds or builds with clones for sure^^. (Also mostly only when spell is playing on revenge counter)

Edited January 27, 2023 by Pati.2438

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Personally, I think they should rework Spellbreaker's traitline and have one of the GM traits remove the daze but have it do decent damage instead, Revenge Counter specifically. 

[apharma.3741]

Fix bug
Decrease FC duration to 1s
Decrease daze to 1s (I'm firmly against skills that are for interrupts lasting longer than 1s)
Then potentially look at CD
Potentially even push it to 0.75s duration, daze for 0.75s but buffing the boon removal side which will also in turn buff damage more for triggering it.

FC is basically a free take no damage for 1.5s skill on a very low CD that when triggered removes a boon, buffs your power damage, dazes for 1.5s, interrupts when it applies the daze and refreshes your burst skill, which is not a high bar.

 

FC should require a higher bar than it currently takes to get that value from it, especially after restoring the defence trait line closer to core days of you'd be dumb not to take this. Maybe it finds a nice niche vs AoE and pet classes and a skilful 1v1. Can also buff some of the traits too if it becomes a skilful proc like what I put after looking at the CD.

[lotus.5672]

On 1/26/2023 at 4:10 AM, Avatar.3568 said:

The mechanic of spb is fullcounter, one of the best skills in the Game

It best usecase is to use it reactive, however some spam it useless and Hope enemys Attack into it. Here xomes the Clou

 

Add a Higher cooldown to fullcounter IF it gets Not procced

This is a win for everybody in the Fight, spellbreaker that use it correctly will still have the Same cooldown, Players that can stow their attacks, get value Out of reacting to full counter and spb that Just use it for nothing get punished hard.

 

Idk what cooldown increase maybe x1.5/X2 but this could Help against Hammer Warrior without touching core weapons Like Hammer 

Make full counter single target

[Lucentfir.7430]

10 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Have you EVER fought a Spellbreaker, while you werent a spellbreaker/warrior yourself?

For the majority of the pack, its not possible to just instantly pause your attacks should you see the FC is going up. There is lingering damage effects, slow projectiles, aoes, clones... yada yada. Good luck telling your clones to stop attacking. 😂

Dodging it is the only viable counterplay for alot of builds.... and conditioning your opponent to burn a dodge every 8 seconds.... with your defensive mechanic... is preeetty strong.

I think FC was fine, when Warrior was dogtier, but right now... with the new defensetraitline... its just way to much sustain.

And i am not sure, if fixing the bug is enough.... Maybe its enough, i honestly dont know. But i feel like they have to adress the resistance duration the spb currently has, aswell.

I mean there's also proper distancing, blinds, and stability, boon corruption. Mesmer's case  sometimes clones procing full counter isn't bad, as clones will also eat up MBT application putting it on a short ICD.  To FC credit it's a counter attack mechanic, more than a pure defensive one, much like main hand mace and offhand sword (Warrior and Mesmer), scepter, only it doesn't have a flip over skill, and uses adrenaline. 

Is it the case for Spvp yeah probably, outside of spvp nah there's some dumb sustain monsters out there you won't see in spvp because of stat access and different play environment., which the case should be to keep nerfs to Spvp. If you really want to address sustain in defense all it takes is Adrenal health going from 2 stacks on on successful burst hit, to 1, or make the initial first adrenal 2 and any other application 1 stack for spb, or maybe raise Banner of Defense to 40s in spvp only. 

Resistance on Revenge Counter means losing MBT, though if people really think it has too much resitance uptim nerf it back down to 2 seconds, the resistance was only really there to cover the the duration of the counter attack portion of FC so you can hit through blinds. 

It's also funny how the forums went from complaining about being stunlocked by hammer and derailing to pls nerf FC. 

 

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Fix bug
Decrease FC duration to 1s
Decrease daze to 1s (I'm firmly against skills that are for interrupts lasting longer than 1s)
Then potentially look at CD
Potentially even push it to 0.75s duration, daze for 0.75s but buffing the boon removal side which will also in turn buff damage more for triggering it.

FC is basically a free take no damage for 1.5s skill on a very low CD that when triggered removes a boon, buffs your power damage, dazes for 1.5s, interrupts when it applies the daze and refreshes your burst skill, which is not a high bar.

 

FC should require a higher bar than it currently takes to get that value from it, especially after restoring the defence trait line closer to core days of you'd be dumb not to take this. Maybe it finds a nice niche vs AoE and pet classes and a skilful 1v1. Can also buff some of the traits too if it becomes a skilful proc like what I put after looking at the CD.

- Fix the CD bug yes.
- Decreasing  FC duration, no it doesn't need it. 
- Decrease the daze yes. 1s isn't bad.
-The CD should be fine where it is when the CD bug is fixed. 
- Boon removal does not proc if foes have stability. 

FC takes a bar of adrenaline to use so it isn't entirely free, it removes a boon if you get CC'd, because of Dispelling Force(Which doesn't remove a boon if you don't actually get CC'd like having stability. ).

What higher bar exactly? The value of the skill entirely hinges on either using it while you're getting attacked, being in melee range, or using stray AoE that has foes in range to hit, and when it comes to duels the onus is on the person attacking into FC, there's been plenty of fights where foes will actually stow weapon mind gaming FC, instead of the common tactic of  motorboating the keyboard . The use of the term 'Skillful proc' really rests on the opponents you face.   

If we're referencing core days, defense was the only line that had any from of sustain outside healing power tactics shout builds, there was no MMR in core times, and adrenal health back then if we're talking 'Ye olde times' had you camping adrenaline levels if you wanted any healing.  

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

3 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

I mean there's also proper distancing, blinds, and stability, boon corruption. Mesmer's case  sometimes clones procing full counter isn't bad, as clones will also eat up MBT application putting it on a short ICD.  To FC credit it's a counter attack mechanic, more than a pure defensive one, much like main hand mace and offhand sword (Warrior and Mesmer), scepter, only it doesn't have a flip over skill, and uses adrenaline. 

Is it the case for Spvp yeah probably, outside of spvp nah there's some dumb sustain monsters out there you won't see in spvp because of stat access and different play environment., which the case should be to keep nerfs to Spvp. If you really want to address sustain in defense all it takes is Adrenal health going from 2 stacks on on successful burst hit, to 1, or make the initial first adrenal 2 and any other application 1 stack for spb, or maybe raise Banner of Defense to 40s in spvp only. 

Resistance on Revenge Counter means losing MBT, though if people really think it has too much resitance uptim nerf it back down to 2 seconds, the resistance was only really there to cover the the duration of the counter attack portion of FC so you can hit through blinds. 

It's also funny how the forums went from complaining about being stunlocked by hammer and derailing to pls nerf FC. 

 

- Fix the CD bug yes.
- Decreasing  FC duration, no it doesn't need it. 
- Decrease the daze yes. 1s isn't bad.
-The CD should be fine where it is when the CD bug is fixed. 
- Boon removal does not proc if foes have stability. 

FC takes a bar of adrenaline to use so it isn't entirely free, it removes a boon if you get CC'd, because of Dispelling Force(Which doesn't remove a boon if you don't actually get CC'd like having stability. ).

What higher bar exactly? The value of the skill entirely hinges on either using it while you're getting attacked, being in melee range, or using stray AoE that has foes in range to hit, and when it comes to duels the onus is on the person attacking into FC, there's been plenty of fights where foes will actually stow weapon mind gaming FC, instead of the common tactic of  motorboating the keyboard . The use of the term 'Skillful proc' really rests on the opponents you face.   

If we're referencing core days, defense was the only line that had any from of sustain outside healing power tactics shout builds, there was no MMR in core times, and adrenal health back then if we're talking 'Ye olde times' had you camping adrenaline levels if you wanted any healing.  

I agree. The only nerfs ANet should be considering for SpB are

1) fixing the CD reduction bug on FC

2) decreasing daze on FC to 1s (or even 0.75s would be fine)

3) nerf barrier application on Banner of defense, or increase its CD.

 

No other warrior spec is close to meta/over performing, and so it makes no sense to nerf core trait lines. 

 

[apharma.3741]

13 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

I mean there's also proper distancing, blinds, and stability, boon corruption. Mesmer's case  sometimes clones procing full counter isn't bad, as clones will also eat up MBT application putting it on a short ICD.  To FC credit it's a counter attack mechanic, more than a pure defensive one, much like main hand mace and offhand sword (Warrior and Mesmer), scepter, only it doesn't have a flip over skill, and uses adrenaline. 

Is it the case for Spvp yeah probably, outside of spvp nah there's some dumb sustain monsters out there you won't see in spvp because of stat access and different play environment., which the case should be to keep nerfs to Spvp. If you really want to address sustain in defense all it takes is Adrenal health going from 2 stacks on on successful burst hit, to 1, or make the initial first adrenal 2 and any other application 1 stack for spb, or maybe raise Banner of Defense to 40s in spvp only. 

Resistance on Revenge Counter means losing MBT, though if people really think it has too much resitance uptim nerf it back down to 2 seconds, the resistance was only really there to cover the the duration of the counter attack portion of FC so you can hit through blinds. 

It's also funny how the forums went from complaining about being stunlocked by hammer and derailing to pls nerf FC. 

 

- Fix the CD bug yes.
- Decreasing  FC duration, no it doesn't need it. 
- Decrease the daze yes. 1s isn't bad.
-The CD should be fine where it is when the CD bug is fixed. 
- Boon removal does not proc if foes have stability. 

FC takes a bar of adrenaline to use so it isn't entirely free, it removes a boon if you get CC'd, because of Dispelling Force(Which doesn't remove a boon if you don't actually get CC'd like having stability. ).

What higher bar exactly? The value of the skill entirely hinges on either using it while you're getting attacked, being in melee range, or using stray AoE that has foes in range to hit, and when it comes to duels the onus is on the person attacking into FC, there's been plenty of fights where foes will actually stow weapon mind gaming FC, instead of the common tactic of  motorboating the keyboard . The use of the term 'Skillful proc' really rests on the opponents you face.   

If we're referencing core days, defense was the only line that had any from of sustain outside healing power tactics shout builds, there was no MMR in core times, and adrenal health back then if we're talking 'Ye olde times' had you camping adrenaline levels if you wanted any healing.  

 

Yep knew people wouldn't like saying that the duration should go down, we all know why too.
At it's worst and most braindead use FC is a 1.5s power damage prevention skill every 12s and is often spammed. It's a skill that's rewarding when spammed and it's active is suffering for that.
Reduce the duration so it's harder to proc if you randomly spam it, even in a team fight, increase the effects like damage, boon removal, boon duration and then see where it goes.

You might say "ah but what about X skill" yes I think all counter skills should be 1s max but really 0.75s.