PvP was ruined by Catalysts and ArenaNet doesn't care

[RedAvenged.5217]

22 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

We all want CMC fired? hmm I guess I didn't get that memo.

While the state of elementalist and both his and Roy's warped view on mesmer is something I'm no fan of I certainly don't want the guy fired. I want to see him grow and get better at the job because they actually really care about the game. His Feb 2020 patch was a very good basis to slow the game down and chart a new course away from the burst meta that we saw. 

 

If you didn't realise the only viable supports in the burst meta were those with a great rez skills and plenty of scalable defences or invulns. Let me spell it out for you if you haven't figured it out, we were going straight into a state of game where the only viable supports or roles outside of dps was Chronobunker like builds. NO-ONE WANTS THAT.

The time before the mega patch was one of the most balanced metas we had.

 

your thing about rez signet wasn’t true at all- firebrand was really dominant until people found out about the double d/p thief comp which was more about rotating fast as it’s damage wasn’t even that great

Edited February 1, 2023 by RedAvenged.5217

[apharma.3741]

23 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

The time before the mega patch was one of the most balanced metas we had.

 

your thing about rez signet wasn’t true at all- firebrand was really dominant until people found out about the double d/p thief comp which was more about rotating fast as it’s damage wasn’t even that great

Last mAT before the feb patch and I've even got you the finals so you can watch Aeon getting bullied constantly on firebrand. Where she switched out elite mantra to renewed focus for the invuln, mercy signet for judges intervention to get away from focus (last minute change btw for the x2 thief comp) and was still having a horrible time. What's even more noticeable is the lack of supports across the tournament where only firebrand was played as support and only by 1 team from semi-finals upwards where it's more indicative of the meta.
 

 

It wasn't balanced in roles, you can clearly see it was mostly +1/bruiser and even then the roles were blurring a lot. Whatever way you want to spin it, the hard truth was supports were barely viable and even then they often had to put personal survivability above everything else. That is backed up by the mAT. 

Most balanced meta we ever had was probably before HoT after cele ele nerf, nearly every class had a build and there were multiple roles to play, the only "loser" was ranger as it just didn't have a high tier build used in weekly tournaments.

[Khalisto.5780]

13 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

I disagree on “gather the relevant players”.

 

anet did this for the cmc big day patch thing and the result was cmc being banned from communication with players and for good reason.

 

there is no doubt that they shouldn’t be communicating with streamers on “what do you want done to the game”,

 

but it is true that cata is disgusting 

relevant players are the main reason duo q isnt gone from game

 

of course they profit the most exploiting duo and selling that god of arena title

Edited February 1, 2023 by Khalisto.5780

[RedAvenged.5217]

2 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Last mAT before the feb patch and I've even got you the finals so you can watch Aeon getting bullied constantly on firebrand. Where she switched out elite mantra to renewed focus for the invuln, mercy signet for judges intervention to get away from focus (last minute change btw for the x2 thief comp) and was still having a horrible time. What's even more noticeable is the lack of supports across the tournament where only firebrand was played as support and only by 1 team from semi-finals upwards where it's more indicative of the meta.
 

 

It wasn't balanced in roles, you can clearly see it was mostly +1/bruiser and even then the roles were blurring a lot. Whatever way you want to spin it, the hard truth was supports were barely viable and even then they often had to put personal survivability above everything else. That is backed up by the mAT. 

Most balanced meta we ever had was probably before HoT after cele ele nerf, nearly every class had a build and there were multiple roles to play, the only "loser" was ranger as it just didn't have a high tier build used in weekly tournaments.

wow way to restate everything I said- literally firebrand was stacked until people found out about double thief.

 

Way to find one person that played the build you mentioned.

 

all they needed to do was nerf d/p and everyone would’ve gone right back to firebrand. 
 

You have an incorrect view of the meta

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

We all want CMC fired? hmm I guess I didn't get that memo.

I don't want CMC fired, I want more memes made of him.

Like recently someone said he was known for chugging water on stream. I imagined a nice meme gif where it shows him chugging water and it says "Water is a drink favored by the best athletes and the best athletes tend to drink water."

[apharma.3741]

27 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

wow way to restate everything I said- literally firebrand was stacked until people found out about double thief.

 

Way to find one person that played the build you mentioned.

 

all they needed to do was nerf d/p and everyone would’ve gone right back to firebrand. 
 

You have an incorrect view of the meta

Good for you all the mATs are there for you to look at. You won't because you don't want to admit you're wrong.
December semis 1 FB as support ONLY everything else was dps and again Aeon was focused and had difficulty surviving.
November one semi match had no FB but we don't see the other. Final did have a double FB team and 1 on the other.
October 1 FB but not support, finals only 1 support FB

If you take into account that Aeon was a support main who literally only played FB and so the comp would always have that, you're left with supports being almost non existent from October till the Feb 2020 patch.
FB was stacked on exactly 1 mAT out of 4 and only 1 team, that's not a trend.

FB was having issues surviving against non thief comps too due to unblockable CCs, go look at the fights with spb and holo.
No other support was being played at all and was rare to see in matches.

Nerfing d/p wouldn't have stopped it, you can see that Aeon was having difficulty dealing with focus the whole time, you know, if you actually went and watched them.
Edit: I just want to say it's not a criticism of Aeon's skill, they did a great job kiting and dealing with the pressure. It was the state of the meta.

Edited February 1, 2023 by apharma.3741

[RedAvenged.5217]

5 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Good for you all the mATs are there for you to look at. You won't because you don't want to admit you're wrong.
December semis 1 FB as support ONLY everything else was dps and again Aeon was focused and had difficulty surviving.
November one semi match had no FB but we don't see the other. Final did have a double FB team and 1 on the other.
October 1 FB but not support, finals only 1 support FB

If you take into account that Aeon was a support main who literally only played FB and so the comp would always have that, you're left with supports being almost non existent from October till the Feb 2020 patch.
FB was stacked on exactly 1 mAT out of 4 and only 1 team, that's not a trend.

FB was having issues surviving against non thief comps too due to unblockable CCs, go look at the fights with spb and holo.
No other support was being played at all and was rare to see in matches.

Nerfing d/p wouldn't have stopped it, you can see that Aeon was having difficulty dealing with focus the whole time, you know, if you actually went and watched them.
Edit: I just want to say it's not a criticism of Aeon's skill, they did a great job kiting and dealing with the pressure. It was the state of the meta.

I mean I was literally there- I was consistently in plat3-legend at the time and was on those mat type teams and a close irl friend of mine beat rank 55 dragons with the comp in the mat.

I’m considering the symbol firebrand build a support, because everyone did. It was simply the best firebrand build.

 

every serious team had 1 firebrand and daily ats had up to 3.

 

yes literally the only thing that made firebrand fall out of mega was double dp.

 

make it make sense- if you nerf the one build that countered a spec than obviously the spec will still be fine

[apharma.3741]

4 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

I mean I was literally there- I was consistently in plat3-legend at the time and was on those mat type teams and a close irl friend of mine beat rank 55 dragons with the comp in the mat.

I’m considering the symbol firebrand build a support, because everyone did. It was simply the best firebrand build.

 

every serious team had 1 firebrand and daily ats had up to 3.

 

yes literally the only thing that made firebrand fall out of mega was double dp.

 

make it make sense- if you nerf the one build that countered a spec than obviously the spec will still be fine

You can't really consider a build that spams AoE boons/healing as part of it's own survivability support, especially when not picking support traits and utilities. By your definition all kinds of builds could be support but they're not because their primary focus is not to support allies, it's just baked into the class.

Again... look at the ATs, firebrand wasn't any more meta than any other class as not all teams used FB and the lack of other support across teams reinforces what I was saying about supports not being viable. I also remember other top players IN those teams saying support was just not worth playing because people often died before you could rez and supports couldn't keep up with the sheer damage output or the focus.
The final AT should serve as a great example of exactly where the game was going, dps dps dps and that's it. Why am I using these ATs as reference? It's really the only good examples of the state of the game removed from anecdote and bias.

[RedAvenged.5217]

Just now, apharma.3741 said:

You can't really consider a build that spams AoE boons/healing as part of it's own survivability support, especially when not picking support traits and utilities. By your definition all kinds of builds could be support but they're not because their primary focus is not to support allies, it's just baked into the class.

Again... look at the ATs, firebrand wasn't any more meta than any other class as not all teams used FB and the lack of other support across teams reinforces what I was saying about supports not being viable. I also remember other top players IN those teams saying support was just not worth playing because people often died before you could rez and supports couldn't keep up with the sheer damage output or the focus.
The final AT should serve as a great example of exactly where the game was going, dps dps dps and that's it. Why am I using these ATs as reference? It's really the only good examples of the state of the game removed from anecdote and bias.

You are absolutely hopeless, this literally an everyone versus you thing and your only proof is “I think I saw it on tv “

 

firebrand was meta ranked on metabattle godsofpvp etc and nearly 50% of top ranked people at the time played it in ranked.

 

also there was a discord at the time that had basically all top players and everyone agreed that double d/p pushed firebrand out of the meta and that it was the only thing keeping it out of the meta.

 

again this is literally a case of everyone against you

[Jski.6180]

Well the game should not be balanced by spectacle and videos it should be balanced by over all use and alternatives. Its like balancing the game base off of one known person making videos its doomed to fail. As things stand hammer is the alternative as well as weaver would it fix the game if scpter and or catalyets being nerfed with out simply removing ele from the game type?

The most important part is that most ppl out side of spvp known MAT is meaningless. There is no E-Sport seen in gw2. The real fear is spvp balancing carrying over to other game types and not about spvp at all.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Jski.6180

[apharma.3741]

28 minutes ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

You are absolutely hopeless, this literally an everyone versus you thing and your only proof is “I think I saw it on tv “

 

firebrand was meta ranked on metabattle godsofpvp etc and nearly 50% of top ranked people at the time played it in ranked.

 

also there was a discord at the time that had basically all top players and everyone agreed that double d/p pushed firebrand out of the meta and that it was the only thing keeping it out of the meta.

 

again this is literally a case of everyone against you

No, it's literally just you with no proof at all.

Go back to what I originally said: "If you didn't realise the only viable supports in the burst meta were those with a great rez skills and plenty of scalable defences or invulns."
The FB build was running rez signet for most the the time you're claiming when it was support, THEN it was running utilities to keep itself alive when it was starting to get countered by not just DP but the sheer amount of damage out there, in the only support focused build that it used.
The other FB build around was not a support build, this is not what I was talking about, I was talking about SUPPORT.

You are also literally ignoring all other support builds out there which weren't even viable in ranked or did you not talk to tempest mains at all? You had people who were playing in these ATs often at semi or finals levels saying support is dead as a role, if you really were in those discords and really knew those people you would know this.

[RedAvenged.5217]

15 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

No, it's literally just you with no proof at all.

Go back to what I originally said: "If you didn't realise the only viable supports in the burst meta were those with a great rez skills and plenty of scalable defences or invulns."
The FB build was running rez signet for most the the time you're claiming when it was support, THEN it was running utilities to keep itself alive when it was starting to get countered by not just DP but the sheer amount of damage out there, in the only support focused build that it used.
The other FB build around was not a support build, this is not what I was talking about, I was talking about SUPPORT.

You are also literally ignoring all other support builds out there which weren't even viable in ranked or did you not talk to tempest mains at all? You had people who were playing in these ATs often at semi or finals levels saying support is dead as a role, if you really were in those discords and really knew those people you would know this.

No literally the meta on firebrand was the symbols build-

which actually does have support. 

it happens that many of the traits on the traits lines you think are “true support traits” don’t really synergies with any traits on firebrand.

 

if you took this magical support build all that would happen is you have a tiny bit more self sustain and a rez signet.

 

symbol guard was the meta support, it just did alittle more damage

Edited February 1, 2023 by RedAvenged.5217

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Red Avenged has played this game at top level for a very, very long time. 
 

I’m not gonna defend the era of pof meta, but the feb 2020-2022 era of balance was the worst yet.
 

The current balance philosophy is not very good either… but at least it’s not as bad as feb 2020. Some 300s cool-downs got fixed, old weapons are getting fixed…so unlike the previous philosophy there are actual fixes being made to the game instead of consistently trying to destroy it every patch.

 

There are still issues with current balance philosophy, but that’s expected given what I’ve repeatedly said over the past 2-3 years: that nerfs and buffs are not gonna be the answer to healthy balance change, it will be skill design and mechanics.
 

I haven’t played the game for a year now…and won’t return to the game until they bring back a lot of what was killed from 2020 (I have no builds to play any more…all inadvertently nerfed into uselessness in an effort by Anet to nerf the meta constantly…which is why I quit). If that means bringing back POF era…fine whatever at least there were builds to play back then, even if they were silly one shot PP deadeyes (that was a pretty toxic build actually but it just means they need to FIX PP not make the weapon set useless)

[Waffles.5632]

It wouldn't be so bad if Anet respected it's own PvP mode and PvPers, but as it is now, Anet makes changes for PvE w/o really considering PvP, and then addresses those changes on the PvP side months later with some patch note and next to no communication.

 

 

Changes to Dragon Tooth go live, Anet assures us they are watching it. 👀

*it's been 84 years meme* 💀

*no communication* 💀💀

The patch note that finally arrives in the year 2077:

- Reduced the power coefficient of Dragon Tooth from 2 to 1.89

See you next time in 3-6 months!

 

 

 

[Dr Meta.3158]

Redavenged is the correct one in this debate.

[lotus.5672]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I don't want CMC fired, I want more memes made of him.

Like recently someone said he was known for chugging water on stream. I imagined a nice meme gif where it shows him chugging water and it says "Water is a drink favored by the best athletes and the best athletes tend to drink water."

Epic meme trevor, you should post it on facebook!

[Bast.7253]

What build is everyone complaining about? I can’t imagine it’s the scepter build in guild Jen because weaver is way more damage output. Did they buff hammer or something? 

I mean it seems to crap out might now but even with 25 might 7k crits aren’t that special. 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Bast.7253

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

16 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Take Dragon's Tooth. A skill thats balanced around the fact that its hard to hit but does huge dmg.

Ofcourse, a skill with such a huge tell and delayed dmg is pointless in PvP.

How about we make it easy to hit the target? Like Braindead easy?

 

 

They could have:

 

>Made it faster to drop, but not magnet, and kept most of the damage

>Made it magnet but nerf the damage

>Kept the damage -and- the magnet, but ensure the ele has to channel until it hits

 

but they made it hit with a T3 eviscerate power coeff with an 8 second cd, except it also ignores terrain, has only minor range limitations and doesn't interrupt the ele from doing anything else while the attack is landing (so you have to focus on both it -and- the eles animations in case they wanna gale you.) 

If this is the new threshold for damage, balance the rest of the game with that in mind. almost everyone else is held to some kind of prerequisite when it comes to strikes like that. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

What build is everyone complaining about? I can’t imagine it’s the scepter build in guild Jen because weaver is way more damage output. Did they buff hammer or something? 

I mean it seems to crap out might now but even with 25 might 7k crits aren’t that special. 

 

Catalyst - Fresh Air Cata - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds

[Jagdtiger.2517]

21 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

As much fun as it is to hate on Anet and their questionable decisions, this is isn't really cool to say. I regret making a joke about their mass layoffs awhile back. I think Roy and CMC make a good team and they clearly care about the game, including PvP.

Exactly.

If they cared about PvP then there wouldn't be 5 of the same class as a winning comp in a monthly tournament. They don't care and/or they're grossly incompetent. Don't make excuses for people that aren't doing their job. 

[bethekey.8314]

6 minutes ago, Jagdtiger.2517 said:

If they cared about PvP then there wouldn't be 5 of the same class as a winning comp in a monthly tournament. They don't care and/or they're grossly incompetent. Don't make excuses for people that aren't doing their job. 

What excuse? Yes the balance is bad right now. Yes it should be fixed sooner for the health of the game.

I doubt you or most others here know much about the internal workings of Anet/GW2 to accurately judge competency.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

5 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

They could have:

 

>Made it faster to drop, but not magnet, and kept most of the damage

>Made it magnet but nerf the damage

>Kept the damage -and- the magnet, but ensure the ele has to channel until it hits

 

but they made it hit with a T3 eviscerate power coeff with an 8 second cd, except it also ignores terrain, has only minor range limitations and doesn't interrupt the ele from doing anything else while the attack is landing (so you have to focus on both it -and- the eles animations in case they wanna gale you.) 

If this is the new threshold for damage, balance the rest of the game with that in mind. almost everyone else is held to some kind of prerequisite when it comes to strikes like that. 

 

How about, instead of changing ths skill at all, we give Ele better setup options to use the skill in its intended way easier?

 

[ollbirtan.2915]

17 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yeah yeah and all the tournament participants who lost against a team of 5 catas also just have a l2p issue, sure, sure.
Keep up the delusions.

You know if the opposite team stacked 5 "so-called broken"  spellbreakers, they would've won easily. It's called countering a class. Check it out. 

[Tiamat.8254]

You make it sound like pvp was actually good. It's terrible and gets zero love. 

[Bast.7253]

16 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Catalyst - Fresh Air Cata - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds

Oh. Slightly different traits and zerker amulet. Must be why it didn’t seem overly oppressive in the one match I tried.

 

Granted the sustain seemed decent and it was one of those 33 to 200 blowout matches before I just logged with me on the losing team but that’s just the rng lotto of unranked. I’m sure some on the other team were a premades or queue dodging alts or something anyway. 
 

Dragons tooth has kind of a slow wind up but I wasn’t managing quickness or anything. Im sure that can get pretty nasty with uptime. 
 

Thanks!