Thieves...

[Melancholy Forever.3965]

have nothing to do in WvW.

They are designed around conquest, so they are forced to reveal themselves to fight, and come close to capping area to defend/pressure.

Everytime i go in WvW, i feel a huge injustice in seeing some alone thieves litterally farming zergs full of other classes that can't catch them, and even damage them sometimes.

Nothing can catch up. Even a good player shouldn't be able to stand up to 10+ people, and be free to disengage and come back that easily. Without the pressure of a PVP map objectives, their escaping tools become OP.

I know this has already been discussed and not modified, but i still wanted to say it.

It is just my opinion,

thank you for reading :)

[Junkpile.7439]

Thief is like one shot mesmer with perma stealth, better mobility and more evades. I hope that they at least give mesmer perma stealth. Annoying when you try to one shot some condi bunker couple times and already run out of stealth.

[floppypuppy.5789]

1 hour ago, Melancholy Forever.3965 said:

... seeing some alone thieves litterally farming zergs ...

Those words don't mean what you think they mean.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Thief = the only low risk/high reward class in the game.  Sure, some people are not very good at it.  But, you have to try really hard to die as a thief.  Because you can walk away from 99% of fights you should lose whenever you want.  And then, Anet gave them near perma-superspeed and portals.  Just lmao.

[Jski.6180]

I think there needs to be an split in the game class with leaps and classes with super speed but not both. Leaps classe would have bust MS letting them get away for a time or get in to a fight fast. Super speed classes would just be able over time to get away or over time get into ranged. So a question of burst MS vs over time MS kind of like an type of burst dmg vs dps or burst healing vs hot etc.. But having both is too much.

So thf should not have any MS effect unless it gives up its leaps. I feel the same for other classes.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Thief = the only low risk/high reward class in the game.  Sure, some people are not very good at it.  But, you have to try really hard to die as a thief.  Because you can walk away from 99% of fights you should lose whenever you want.  And then, Anet gave them near perma-superspeed and portals.  Just lmao.

If that were true, a lot of thieves wouldn't feel the need to make gimmicky builds to get away. You also have build choices to handle different things. You also have build templates you can flip through quickly. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

23 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

If that were true, a lot of thieves wouldn't feel the need to make gimmicky builds to get away. You also have build choices to handle different things. You also have build templates you can flip through quickly. 

You seem to not understand something here, other classes don't have such luxury as teefs in the slightest. They're the ones that decide the fight rules, not the opponent. If teef decides "I'm out" then it's gg, game over, you won't catch it either way unless you heavily outnumber it or have tools that can keep-up with them for few seconds at most and that's a fact.
All teef builds are gimmicks, be it stealth, evasion, blinds or teleports. That class is only for harassing people and being pain in the kitten and uber waste of time for anyone beside teefs themselves.

[kash.9213]

19 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You seem to not understand something here, other classes don't have such luxury as teefs in the slightest. They're the ones that decide the fight rules, not the opponent. If teef decides "I'm out" then it's gg, game over, you won't catch it either way unless you heavily outnumber it or have tools that can keep-up with them for few seconds at most and that's a fact.
All teef builds are gimmicks, be it stealth, evasion, blinds or teleports. That class is only for harassing people and being pain in the kitten and uber waste of time for anyone beside teefs themselves.

You'll likely catch it if you build for it but you probably won't. If you still can't, that's their thing, like a lot of passive flak to mitigate most damage is other professions thing. Build choices. Don't be glass if you don't want to explode right away and pack some Control. 

[Serp.3264]

The problem with these threads is that they always take such a simplistic view of things. "Thieves can get away from others. That is OP. Nerf them." Why not talk about why the class is designed that way? Go give thief a shot and try to not utilize kiting/stealth. It doesn't work.

 

Also, while the OP used extreme hyperbole (to the point where they are factually incorrect about the entire design of the class), why is it fundamentally flawed to have a class that can escape? This game is all about mobility. Someone has to be at the top of the totem pole. Why shouldn't it be a class like the thief? If you want to argue for more counterplay, then give some suggestions/things you have tried. Don't just cry about it. It is so uncompetitive to simply give up without even trying.

 

Threads like this always read "I am in a zerg. If I run across anyone with smaller numbers, I deserve those kills simply by existing". It is ridiculous. Just play better, stick to your tag, and thieves aren't an issue at all. If you play poorly and position badly to the point where thieves can pick you off, learn from your mistakes and improve. This is a competitive game mode where you play other people. You die sometimes. Get used to it.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

You'll likely catch it if you build for it but you probably won't. If you still can't, that's their thing, like a lot of passive flak to mitigate most damage is other professions thing. Build choices. Don't be glass if you don't want to explode right away and pack some Control. 

That's bs, you can't catch something that can port every 8s, WvW map isn't flat and smooth. 
Doesn't matter if you're glass or not if enemy can stealth forever or port whenever in whataver place they want.
Warrior doesn't have any chance against teefs at all unless they'll decide "I want die". Other classes have like what? 2-3 teleports in kit? And even then they're much more restricted than teefs in long run since some of them require target, but here's the funny thing, teefs can stealth, so teleports are kinda of worthless in those cases. Other teleports have 35s+ cd, so yea, not really balanced class in the slightest in WvW since 2012.

[Creativity.3816]

complain = skill issue

die = skill issue

 

summary: skill issue

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

That's bs, you can't catch something that can port every 8s, WvW map isn't flat and smooth. 
Doesn't matter if you're glass or not if enemy can stealth forever or port whenever in whataver place they want.
Warrior doesn't have any chance against teefs at all unless they'll decide "I want die". Other classes have like what? 2-3 teleports in kit? And even then they're much more restricted than teefs in long run since some of them require target, but here's the funny thing, teefs can stealth, so teleports are kinda of worthless in those cases. Other teleports have 35s+ cd, so yea, not really balanced class in the slightest in WvW since 2012.

That's bs, you can't catch something that can port every 8s - tease out their cooldowns then lock them up.

WvW map isn't flat and smooth - that's in your favor also, more so in fact.

If they're rolling around with a build with almost full stealth uptime, then walk them into obstacles since WvW maps aren't flat and smooth. You probably know what they're weapon kit and utilities are if they can stealth forever and you probably won't have to worry about them much during or after one good lockdown and burn. If they can port through walls to get away from you at that point then report them.

I don't stealth much, but others stealth doesn't seem like a big deal in WvW rigth now. Most of the good bursts are happening out of stealth, at least in my matchups. Cloak and Dagger or some circle cleaves where they should be usually connects. Load them up with a sticky bomb like Basilik Venom or something that can have an Interrupt or other modifiers that can wait to pop them out of stealth or burn while they try to reset. 

If they still got a thing for you after all that then just farm them. 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by kash.9213

[Gehenna.3625]

43 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

That's bs, you can't catch something that can port every 8s - tease out their cooldowns then lock them up.

There is no teasing them...they just run off and hide if you are on the winning hand, knowing that you'll have to leave if you don't want your participation timer to run out. Defending a camp is a kitten job. There's no reward for it unless you kill them. They just have to let their cd's to complete and they try again.

43 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

WvW map isn't flat and smooth - that's in your favor also, more so in fact.

No it's not. It's to the advantage of high mobility classes. They can run/jump/port/shadowstep circles around you.

43 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

If they're rolling around with a build with almost full stealth uptime, then walk them into obstacles since WvW maps aren't flat and smooth. You probably know what they're weapon kit and utilities are if they can stealth forever and you probably won't have to worry about them much during or after one good lockdown and burn. If they can port through walls to get away from you at that point then report them.

You're expecting a lot from the average WvW'er. 

43 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I don't stealth much, but others stealth doesn't seem like a big deal in WvW rigth now. Most of the good bursts are happening out of stealth, at least in my matchups. Cloak and Dagger or some circle cleaves where they should be usually connects. Load them up with a sticky bomb like Basilik Venom or something that can have an Interrupt or other modifiers that can wait to pop them out of stealth or burn while they try to reset. 

If they still got a thing for you after all that then just farm them. 

You're right that atm I don't see many thieves anymore. But they do come back from time to time and it also depends on which servers you play against.

[kash.9213]

29 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

There is no teasing them...they just run off and hide if you are on the winning hand, knowing that you'll have to leave if you don't want your participation timer to run out. Defending a camp is a kitten job. There's no reward for it unless you kill them. They just have to let their cd's to complete and they try again.

No it's not. It's to the advantage of high mobility classes. They can run/jump/port/shadowstep circles around you.

You're expecting a lot from the average WvW'er. 

You're right that atm I don't see many thieves anymore. But they do come back from time to time and it also depends on which servers you play against.

Try getting into a tight spot as a thief anywhere in WvW, especially around structures, and especially around sieged structures. Pathing will do half of the job of shutting them down for you if you're trying to run them through their shadowsteps. 

[Chips.7968]

If you're complaining about thief, go make a thief and then show us some videos of you "literally" 1vs10 a zerg.

Also, "can't catch"... you haven't the mobility, fine. You are focussing upon a strength of thief, and not your own class's / build's strength, nor what is the thief's weakness. If mobility was the be all and end all in this game, how come zergs aren't 100% thieves, or pvp isn't just thieves.

Used to be (in wvw) that as a thief people would give a wide berth as they feared thieves.

These days, players willingly attack the thief, and salty messages galore would indicate they think they should have won the fight THEY started. What does that tell you?

The belief "I SHULD BE ABLE TO WIN EVERY FIGHT VS ..." is ridiculous. Sometimes you meet people who just outplay you regardless. Sometimes you meet people who get outplayed. Sometimes your build is just mismatched against the foes. Sometimes it's the reverse.

Must admit not sure what the thread's about; the title and corresponding post are... odd.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Chips.7968

[Justine.6351]

Remembering a time where I used to eat thieves like potato chips with a hammer rev. Zerglings complained about its damage so it got nerfed and now they have no answer to people that kite them. Maybe roll a sic em sniper or something and convince your tag it's needed.

[senftube.6081]

Thief is pretty useless atm in WvW. It is a good 1vs1 class but overall the other classes bring much more to the table. Sick of peoples too who moan still about them and doesn't care when maybe the thief player was the better player. And when a whole zerg can't kill 1 thief.........

[Gehenna.3625]

20 minutes ago, Yunari.9065 said:

Thief is pretty useless atm in WvW. It is a good 1vs1 class but overall the other classes bring much more to the table. Sick of peoples too who moan still about them and doesn't care when maybe the thief player was the better player. And when a whole zerg can't kill 1 thief.........

Well, I don't see a lot of thieves these days, but from experience I don't really understand why a thief needs stealth and high mobility. I mean even just stealthing and coming out of stealth gives a thief superspeed. 

I mean I play a guardian and I have some blocking abilities but when a thief stealths out I'm pretty much done. When a thief uses mobility I'm also pretty much done because there's no way for me to keep up. I mean spear of justice would be great but it rarely hits thieves because they can easily counter it I've noticed. And well then there is a 40 second CD.

It's not losing against thieves that makes me dislike them so much but that they can easily get away in more than one way that irks me and it irks me because I'm supposed to defend objectives, but I can't stay there with the chance of them coming back 1-2 minutes later because my participation clock keeps running down. If I didn't have that participation clock running I wouldn't mind really.

[Mike.3196]

Wait guard has some blocks? Some?????????

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:50 AM, Melancholy Forever.3965 said:

Nothing can catch up. Even a good player shouldn't be able to stand up to 10+ people, and be free to disengage and come back that easily

Pls explain exactly how 10+ scrapped against a theif and let it escape? Granted I melee'd zergs in WvW as a sw/p & staff drd, but even then it's if I'm pushing with a squad. Otherwise I'd be 100-0'd quick. 

[oatsnjuices.1698]

5 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, I don't see a lot of thieves these days, but from experience I don't really understand why a thief needs stealth and high mobility. I mean even just stealthing and coming out of stealth gives a thief superspeed. 

I mean I play a guardian and I have some blocking abilities but when a thief stealths out I'm pretty much done. When a thief uses mobility I'm also pretty much done because there's no way for me to keep up. I mean spear of justice would be great but it rarely hits thieves because they can easily counter it I've noticed. And well then there is a 40 second CD.

It's not losing against thieves that makes me dislike them so much but that they can easily get away in more than one way that irks me and it irks me because I'm supposed to defend objectives, but I can't stay there with the chance of them coming back 1-2 minutes later because my participation clock keeps running down. If I didn't have that participation clock running I wouldn't mind really.

I have played a willbender in speed runes that absolutely punished me, over and over. I have fought a willbender with allies and been demolished with my allies, and I do not get superspeed after going into and coming out of stealth. I play thief because I like to cruise the battlefeild and not worry about fighting the 10+ builds that smash me, I choose my fights. But, if thief is gone, then many will not have the option of cruising anywhere alone without running into those headhunters {u kno who u r} that otherwise would smash us. If you want to beat a thief with a willbender, just throw in some speed runes, play pvp for a season, and most thieves will not touch you. Maybe a qq or 2, but me, as a mediocre thief, ez kill. 

[Gehenna.3625]

6 hours ago, oatsnjuices.1698 said:

I have played a willbender in speed runes that absolutely punished me, over and over. I have fought a willbender with allies and been demolished with my allies, and I do not get superspeed after going into and coming out of stealth. I play thief because I like to cruise the battlefeild and not worry about fighting the 10+ builds that smash me, I choose my fights. But, if thief is gone, then many will not have the option of cruising anywhere alone without running into those headhunters {u kno who u r} that otherwise would smash us. If you want to beat a thief with a willbender, just throw in some speed runes, play pvp for a season, and most thieves will not touch you. Maybe a qq or 2, but me, as a mediocre thief, ez kill. 

Thanks for the advise but I just don't like willbender, I play a DH and it's fun to play most of the time. It works well for me most of the time, but not against thieves or mesmers to some degree and there are just better players so I accept that. The thing is that when I speak of my guardian main, I suppose I have to specify that I play a DH, because people assume that as a guardian player I must love to play all elite specs apparently. And for the record I play as a scout/roamer.

Mind you, as I said, I don't mind losing to thieves but my problem is that they can too easily get away from me and that is a problem only because I then have to choose between letting my participation go to kitten or leaving a camp undefended. That's the part I don't like in the end. So to specify, I only have problems with them when it comes to supply camps.

If you don't have superspeed with stealth then you don't use shadow arts. I would think that's a go-to trait line for thieves, but then I admit thieves never really worked for me, though generally the thief players I talked to use shadow arts. That's why I assumed you did as well.

10 hours ago, Mike.3196 said:

Wait guard has some blocks? Some?????????

Yeah some blocks and they can all be depleted in a matter of seconds and the minimum CD for them is at least 20 seconds and goes up to 50 seconds. I probably have 5 blocks at the ready including aegis. It doesn't take long for a thief to land 5 hits. I could have a couple more but then I would have to take out something that I'd rather not. And then I don't have any blocks for at least 20 seconds.

And I have to have sword/focus equipped because 3 of my blocks come from that skill but if I want to have any chance of doing damage to a thief, I would have to use my bow, but even then they can take less than a second to get out of my bow range.

I mean, I'm older and had brain surgery a couple of years ago, so I am a bit slower than others, so I accept that I'll get beaten a lot (which I'm ok with). But what I do hate is that I have to stay at camps and accept that my participation goes to kitten or I have to abandon the camp which feels wrong, because I know there's someone out there that can strike at any moment and cap the camp before I can get back there.

Perhaps the camp npc's should be more of a challenge, I dunno. I mean they gave camp supervisor's 10% more health and damage, but I didn't even realize that until later, that's how unremarkable that change was.

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, I don't see a lot of thieves these days, but from experience I don't really understand why a thief needs stealth and high mobility. I mean even just stealthing and coming out of stealth gives a thief superspeed. 

I mean I play a guardian and I have some blocking abilities but when a thief stealths out I'm pretty much done. When a thief uses mobility I'm also pretty much done because there's no way for me to keep up. I mean spear of justice would be great but it rarely hits thieves because they can easily counter it I've noticed. And well then there is a 40 second CD.

Guardian no mobility? What do you think Willbender does?

13 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

It's not losing against thieves that makes me dislike them so much but that they can easily get away in more than one way that irks me and it irks me because I'm supposed to defend objectives, but I can't stay there with the chance of them coming back 1-2 minutes later because my participation clock keeps running down. If I didn't have that participation clock running I wouldn't mind really.

Your participation clock keeps running down and so is theirs.

 

18 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Thanks for the advise but I just don't like willbender, I play a DH and it's fun to play most of the time. It works well for me most of the time, but not against thieves or mesmers to some degree and there are just better players so I accept that. The thing is that when I speak of my guardian main, I suppose I have to specify that I play a DH, because people assume that as a guardian player I must love to play all elite specs apparently. And for the record I play as a scout/roamer.

Mind you, as I said, I don't mind losing to thieves but my problem is that they can too easily get away from me and that is a problem only because I then have to choose between letting my participation go to kitten or leaving a camp undefended. That's the part I don't like in the end. So to specify, I only have problems with them when it comes to supply camps.

Ok then that doesn't mean "if they use mobility, you're done because there's no way to keep up", it means "you have options to keep up but you're not using them".

Edited February 6, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[senftube.6081]

19 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, I don't see a lot of thieves these days, but from experience I don't really understand why a thief needs stealth and high mobility. I mean even just stealthing and coming out of stealth gives a thief superspeed. 

I mean I play a guardian and I have some blocking abilities but when a thief stealths out I'm pretty much done. When a thief uses mobility I'm also pretty much done because there's no way for me to keep up. I mean spear of justice would be great but it rarely hits thieves because they can easily counter it I've noticed. And well then there is a 40 second CD.

It's not losing against thieves that makes me dislike them so much but that they can easily get away in more than one way that irks me and it irks me because I'm supposed to defend objectives, but I can't stay there with the chance of them coming back 1-2 minutes later because my participation clock keeps running down. If I didn't have that participation clock running I wouldn't mind really.

Play willybender then? Some blocks....good joke. 😅 A willybender is as mobile like the thief (in some cases even more). Has heavy armor and insane burst

Edited February 6, 2023 by Yunari.9065

[MaLong.2079]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:50 AM, Melancholy Forever.3965 said:

have nothing to do in WvW.

They are designed around conquest, so they are forced to reveal themselves to fight, and come close to capping area to defend/pressure.

Everytime i go in WvW, i feel a huge injustice in seeing some alone thieves litterally farming zergs full of other classes that can't catch them, and even damage them sometimes.

Nothing can catch up. Even a good player shouldn't be able to stand up to 10+ people, and be free to disengage and come back that easily. Without the pressure of a PVP map objectives, their escaping tools become OP.

I know this has already been discussed and not modified, but i still wanted to say it.

It is just my opinion,

thank you for reading 🙂

This has been brought up many times. By many people. Driving many to complete insanity. 😂

I have already understood why thief exists as it is in WvW and it has nothing to do with balance.

They are largely ignored in WvW anyway.

I have made my peace with it and, for your peace of mind and sanity, I recommend you do the same. 😁

Hope you find your peace. 😇

It is not going to change.