The iterative process ruins this game potential

[Artyport.2084]

This is like the 8th time you guys have changed how you release content. 
 

Your lack of consistency over the years makes it hard to trust this company. 
 

lack of time frames and committing to those time frames has lost a lot of trust from me. 
 

every year it’s something different . 
 

no expansion, living world, permanent living world, expansion, sagas, now mini expansions. 
 

This inability to keep a system is making it so that this game will never achieve the success it should have. 
 

This needs to be the last model for at least 4 years and you need to be consistent with it. It’s exhausting as someone who loves this game watching a company ruin it’s potential over and over again .

 

you created a great game just deliver content to it regularly.

 

The wheel has been invented.. push it 

 

I have played this game since gw1 beta. I want to see it thrive finally. Also the blog post was a great Example of bad marketing. There was literally nothing to get people excited and so many things that leave new and old players with questions and vague  answers and offered nothing to get excited about. 
 

also why did it take you this long to communicate that you are no longer doing living world. You clearly knew this was no longer a thing and just decided to be vague about it since the release of eod. 
 

 

[Danikat.8537]

So does that mean they should have stuck to their original plan, which was to release new content only through one-off events like the first Halloween and the Lost Shores weekend where players had to be online when it happened or they missed it forever, but could see the after-effects through the changes it made to Tyria?

They stopped doing that because it didn't work and got a lot of negative feedback and re-vamped it into the format used for Season 1. They stopped doing that and switched to permanent releases because players said they wanted it, then made an expansion because players kept on and on asking for one. They released Season 3, PoF and Season 4 on a different schedule to Season 2, HoT and then starting Season 3 because players were unhappy with the gaps between releases. I think going from Season 4 straight into Icebrood Saga was their own idea, but they scrapped that, cutting it short and focusing on EoD because that decision was unpopular with players. Then they announced that they were already working on a 4th expansion because those have consistently been more popular than living world releases and have now confirmed they'll be releasing expansions on a regular basis.

I'm genuinely curious to know at what point you think they should have stopped paying attention to what their customers wanted and their own experience of what worked and didn't work and simply stuck with what they were already doing, because they were already doing it.

I'm also curious about how far ahead you need to know the schedule for a video game. Does it really affect your plans that much if you don't know what will be released in 4 years time? What are you going to do differently if Anet aren't able to confirm exactly how many years this schedule will run for?

Edited February 15, 2023 by Danikat.8537

[costepj.5120]

I guess I'll never understand this level of entitlement.
I've bought all the GW1/GW2 releases, but I don't consider that gives me any say in their future plans. If they continue publishing content I enjoy, I'll continue buying it; if they don't, I'll stop.
I spent £20K on my last car, but I don't consider that gives me any say in BMW's future strategy. If they bring out a new model I like, I'll consider buying it; if they don't, I won't.

[Artyport.2084]

22 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

So does that mean they should have stuck to their original plan, which was to release new content only through one-off events like the first Halloween and the Lost Shores weekend where players had to be online when it happened or they missed it forever, but could see the after-effects through the changes it made to Tyria?

They stopped doing that because it didn't work and got a lot of negative feedback and re-vamped it into the format used for Season 1. They stopped doing that and switched to permanent releases because players said they wanted it, then made an expansion because players kept on and on asking for one. They released Season 3, PoF and Season 4 on a different schedule to Season 2, HoT and then starting Season 3 because players were unhappy with the gaps between releases. I think going from Season 4 straight into Icebrood Saga was their own idea, but they scrapped that, cutting it short and focusing on EoD because that decision was unpopular with players. Then they announced that they were already working on a 4th expansion because those have consistently been more popular than living world releases and have now confirmed they'll be releasing expansions on a regular basis.

I'm genuinely curious to know at what point you think they should have stopped paying attention to what their customers wanted and their own experience of what worked and didn't work and simply stuck with what they were already doing, because they were already doing it.

I'm also curious about how far ahead you need to know the schedule for a video game. Does it really affect your plans that much if you don't know what will be released in 4 years time? What are you going to do differently if Anet aren't able to confirm exactly how many years this schedule will run for?

 

as a person who has played countless mmos since I was like 12 I’m in my mid 30s now. This is the most inconsistent major mmo I’ve ever played. That’s the bottom line. 
 

And that inconsistency keeps the game from achieving the success it should have. 
 

you can white night all you want. 
but they can’t keep a simple routine. 
expansion+ living world works. People were happy with that. But they couldn’t keep it on a schedule. Mostly due to the fact that they are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. 
 

Im not even saying there decision to iterate over the years has all been bad.. 

 

but it’s time to be consistent. That’s what this game needs. 
 

im tired of some random new approach they drop and then start again.. only to drop it for years. 
 

when they released raids they should have had a raid commitment of 1 a year. 

when they released abandoned dungeons for mediocre half dungeon (fractals) they should have committed to 3 a year. 
 

now we have strikes which I’m happy they have shown some consistency with but for how long. When are they gonna drop it for something else random instead of improving upon it. 
 

My major point is that this game has all the systems it needs to be a fantastic game. The company needs to be consistent in putting the things that work out more often instead of throwing together a new idea every 5 seconds. 
 

and on communication. MMO’s are not normal games. They are second lives, I have friends I talk to, people I spend evenings with. While I have a very active social life outside of gaming I also have a very active social life in gaming. So having some knowledge about a games plans is important for keeping those communities active.  
 

I can’t keep friends or a guild in Gw2 because people are constantly leaving the game because they are never sure when they are going to get new content. 

[Sobx.1758]

44 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I'm also curious about how far ahead you need to know the schedule for a video game. Does it really affect your plans that much if you don't know what will be released in 4 years time? What are you going to do differently if Anet aren't able to confirm exactly how many years this schedule will run for?

That's what is rather interesting about some of the responses we've seen in the "roadmap" thread where some people apparently didn't feel we got told what the plans are because there were no specific dates listed past may. We know we're getting content update in 2 weeks and some still tried calling it a maintenance mode. Similar thing happened at the expansion release where within the first days some people were already asking when the new expansion will come. There's 0% chance those people played through the content that came with the expansion they just got. Can't help but think the "smaller but more frequent" content updates are partially directed at feeding those weird "more new now, even if I just got new content to play!" demands.

[Artyport.2084]

8 minutes ago, costepj.5120 said:

I guess I'll never understand this level of entitlement.
I've bought all the GW1/GW2 releases, but I don't consider that gives me any say in their future plans. If they continue publishing content I enjoy, I'll continue buying it; if they don't, I'll stop.
I spent £20K on my last car, but I don't consider that gives me any say in BMW's future strategy. If they bring out a new model I like, I'll consider buying it; if they don't, I won't.

You can cry entitled all you want but again this game is holding itself back with its inconsistency. 

Other games can be likened to cars. One time purchases where you get their value and once the value has run out you get another. 
 

mmorpgs are fundamentally different. They are about communities. I own an operate a yoga studio and I can tell you if I was inconsistent I wouldn’t have a client base as big as I do. Because yoga studio like mmorpgs are about community. 
 

I’ve been in like 8 guilds since they game started. They usually have a big boon around the expansion and then when things get quiet people disappear. 
 

I contrast this with my ffxiv guild and because there is some whisper of new content being added and the game has shown it has potential to be consistent people stay around even during the long pauses. 
 

Again you can white knight the game all you want you are only contributing to its mediocre status when the game has potential to be great.

 

maybe I am entitled.. but at least I’m not complacent 

[Mic.1897]

1 hour ago, Artyport.2084 said:

You can cry entitled all you want but again this game is holding itself back with its inconsistency. 
 

You are yet to convince anyone why btw

[roederich.2716]

I agree with op.

too many times they announced „the new future of gw2“ and just didnt do it then. A year later they announce „the new future of gw2“ and you by now know they wont do it then.

how can a company make announcements and break them so often?

in my country its forbidden by law to make customers beliefs so they spend more cash but just never do what you say.

the european union is now working on new laws for gaming companies because of such.

look at wvw… they announce alliances and drop that project secretly some days later without telling….

any word about next alliance beta in current „studio update“? No.

Class balance? Some tryhard changes here and there which get reverted after…

they redo the firebrand just to realise this espec has never been the problem in wvw. The poor gaming quality of dps and boon strip players is… nerf firebrand and suddenly 90% of the squads arent competitive anymore…

there and back again. Dont know. It feels the company is degenerating since gw2 release every year bit by bit.

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, roederich.2716 said:

I agree with op.

too many times they announced „the new future of gw2“ and just didnt do it then. A year later they announce „the new future of gw2“ and you by now know they wont do it then.

how can a company make announcements and break them so often?

in my country its forbidden by law to make customers beliefs so they spend more cash but just never do what you say.

the european union is now working on new laws for gaming companies because of such.

look at wvw… they announce alliances and drop that project secretly some days later without telling….

any word about next alliance beta in current „studio update“? No.

Class balance? Some tryhard changes here and there which get reverted after…

they redo the firebrand just to realise this espec has never been the problem in wvw. The poor gaming quality of dps and boon strip players is… nerf firebrand and suddenly 90% of the squads arent competitive anymore…

there and back again. Dont know. It feels the company is degenerating since gw2 release every year bit by bit.

Drop that project secretly some days later?

https://preview.redd.it/dfd5kgpa45ia1.png?width=324&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=cc3b5872abdf00c923b8d369af100c3bde9fcc81

+from https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/studio-update-guild-wars-2-in-2023/

Quote

(...)and multiple updates for World vs. World. Additionally, we’ll finish rolling out the DirectX11 and Chromium Embedded Framework upgrades and run our usual festival and bonus events. We also have some quality-of-life updates in the works, including a long-requested feature that will allow you to queue up for PvE maps when they’re full. We might have a few surprises in store for you as well.

Here’s a high-level look at our upcoming releases. The timing for some of the updates and betas listed above will be announced closer to their release dates.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Farohna.6247]

2 hours ago, costepj.5120 said:

I guess I'll never understand this level of entitlement.
I've bought all the GW1/GW2 releases, but I don't consider that gives me any say in their future plans. If they continue publishing content I enjoy, I'll continue buying it; if they don't, I'll stop.
I spent £20K on my last car, but I don't consider that gives me any say in BMW's future strategy. If they bring out a new model I like, I'll consider buying it; if they don't, I won't.

Exactly...I don't understand why the frustration over this as well.  Do some people vex and complain over every company they purchase a product from?  I just bought some new running shoes...I don't think the company needs to tell me what their next design is, and they have changed the styles over the years.  I buy them because I like the product.  Same with GW2, I will play so long as I'm having a good time.  

I understand if someone doesn't like change.  It can be confusing or frustrating.  But that doesn't mean others don't like it or that a company hasn't given it a lot of thought.  It just means that someone wants mac and cheese every night and then mom serves them meatloaf...either give it a try or go make your own.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

OP is not entirely wrong, though. Consistency has never been ANet's strong suit. As a member of the instanced content community (dungeons/fractals/raids/strike missions) in almost 11 years we've had 4 different versions of instanced (challenging) content. Dungeons were abandoned pretty quickly in favor of Fractals, but very few new Fractals have been released since then and on a very irregular schedule. Raids were introduced but a few years later they abandoned that as well. Now we have strike missions, and apparently they are still putting effort in Fractals (even though the last one was released 4 years ago, giving the strong impression Fractals had fallen to the wayside as well). Based on this history it's absolutely understandable people wonder how long Strike Missions will last and what the new iteration of instanced (challenging) content will be.

There hasn't been any consistency in ANet's communication methods either. They go back and forth between regular updates on future plans to just being silent. First they didn't want to do expansions, then they decided they would do expansions, and now that plan is being changed again in some way. Living World was the way to go for years (and even that has changed in its implementation, from temporary content releases to permanent content releases with a limited free availability) but apparently that isn't working for them anymore either. It's like they set out on a journey with only a vague idea of a destination in mind, taking to the road and seeing if it took them to a place that remotely resembles the destination they had in mind. Judging from the new plan, they still haven't arrived. 

All of this hasn't stopped me from playing and enjoying the game since its release. It hasn't stopped me from buying every deluxe version of the 3 expansions, nor has it stopped me from using the gemstore with real life money. But it also hasn't fooled me into thinking the studio has a clear plan for the game. It all feels very reactionary. Anyone with an objective view of the game can't deny that consistency has never been a staple of ANet's development of GW2. I'm the kind of person who will wait and see how things turn out. The latest roadmap doesn't make me feel one way or the other. It's a general outline of what they're planning for the foreseeable future, nothing more. Frankly, to me, it's a dud. ANet has done very well in creating a MMO that goes off the beaten path, but after almost 11 years of playing the one thing that is sadly missing is a clear vision. So I agree with OP that I wish this is the way forward and will consistently remain so, not that they find out in 2 or 3 years that this isn't working either and they're going to do it all different again, change their schedules, the nature of content releases and implement a 5th version of instanced content. It really does feel like they're trying to recreate a new wheel over and over again.

Time will tell.

 

Edit: also, shoes and cars don't make a very good analogy for a MMO.

Edited February 15, 2023 by TheNecrosanct.4028

[Gibson.4036]

There is an upside.

Don't like the direction they're headed?

Take a break for a year or two, and when you return they might just be headed in a direction you like.

😄

Edited February 15, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Farohna.6247]

14 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

OP is not entirely wrong, though. Consistency has never been ANet's strong suit. As a member of the instanced content community (dungeons/fractals/raids/strike missions) in almost 11 years we've had 4 different versions of instanced (challenging) content. Dungeons were abandoned pretty quickly in favor of Fractals, but very few new Fractals have been released since then and on a very irregular schedule. Raids were introduced but a few years later they abandoned that as well. Now we have strike missions, and apparently they are still putting effort in Fractals (even though the last one was released 4 years ago, giving the strong impression Fractals had fallen to the wayside as well). Based on this history it's absolutely understandable people wonder how long Strike Missions will last and what the new iteration of instanced (challenging) content will be.

There hasn't been any consistency in ANet's communication methods either. They go back and forth between regular updates on future plans to just being silent. First they didn't want to do expansions, then they decided they would do expansions, and now that plan is being changed again in some way. Living World was the way to go for years (and even that has changed in its implementation, from temporary content releases to permanent content releases with a limited free availability) but apparently that isn't working for them anymore either. It's like they set out on a journey with only a vague idea of a destination in mind, taking to the road and seeing if it took them to a place that remotely resembles the destination they had in mind. Judging from the new plan, they still haven't arrived. 

All of this hasn't stopped me from playing and enjoying the game since its release. It hasn't stopped me from buying every deluxe version of the 3 expansions, nor has it stopped me from using the gemstore with real life money. But it also hasn't fooled me into thinking the studio has a clear plan for the game. It all feels very reactionary. Anyone with an objective view of the game can't deny that consistency has never been a staple of ANet's development of GW2. I'm the kind of person who will wait and see how things turn out. The latest roadmap doesn't make me feel one way or the other. It's a general outline of what they're planning for the foreseeable future, nothing more. Frankly, to me, it's a dud. ANet has done very well in creating a MMO that goes off the beaten path, but after almost 11 years of playing the one thing that is sadly missing is a clear vision. So I agree with OP that I wish this is the way forward and will consistently remain so, not that they find out in 2 or 3 years that this isn't working either and they're going to do it all different again, change their schedules, the nature of content releases and implement a 5th version of instanced content. It really does feel like they're trying to recreate a new wheel over and over again.

Time will tell.

 

Edit: also, shoes and cars don't make a very good analogy for a MMO.

Your comments are well said, and I feel like this is what OP was going for, but you said it without the entitlement or demandingness.  

I love the game, and I do agree it feels disorganized with their changes often.  It's like they're trying to make everyone happy on a limited budget, and with many direction changes.  It does feel like they have a start and an end but what happens in the middle is kind of random.  

We can only speculate though until we actually see what product they put out.  The gaming news seems intrigued with the changes, it fits in with Steam, so it's more just wait and see.  

I get that OP is tired of change.  The abandoned content is frustrating, the shifts in direction jarring, etc.  If it is not a product they wish to consume after trying it, then don't spend money on it.  Take a break, come back another time, or just play the parts of the game already owned.  

Also, cars and shoes lol...if you don't like a product or how it's company is putting it out, you don't buy it.  Same with games.  Don't like it, then don't play it.  But companies are not obligated to tell the consumer their plans, just their investors and shareholders.

[Gibson.4036]

17 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

  But companies are not obligated to tell the consumer their plans, just their investors and shareholders.

This is absolutely true. There is no obligation.

Though it should be noted that part of what players look for in an MMO is a long-term gaming home. They want to settle in and feel like they can live there for the long haul. The conventional MMO game design of "long term goals" further this, because there is a significant time investment into rewards that players want to feel they can enjoy for quite a while after they've earned them.

It benefits the company if they can provide this sense of "Yeah, you're going to want to stick around for a long time."

All companies strive for brand loyalty. Consistency is one of the keys to earning it.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Farohna.6247]

6 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

This is absolutely true. There is no obligation.

Though it should be noted that part of what players look for in an MMO is a long-term gaming home. They want to settle in and feel like they can live there for the long haul. The conventional MMO game design of "long term goals" further this, because there is a significant time investment into rewards that players want to feel they can enjoy for quite a while after they've earned them.

It benefits the company if they can provide this sense of "Yeah, you're going to want to stick around for a long time."

All companies strive for brand loyalty. Consistency is one of the keys to earning it.

Good points!  It is like a long term home and place with friends. And consistency is desirable. 

I think all games change, I left one after a decade of play, investment, and commitment, because the changes were just no longer of interest to me.   Yet it continues without my contribution for the next group of gamers who play it.  The difference there was that it was more gradual and less chaotic of change than GW2's lol.  Again, I'm interested in trying it, and will continue to play even if I choose not to purchase future expansions. 

[fenriswolfman.5486]

When colin left the constant whiplash finally stopped for the most part. Now hes back and its started again. This will be the game going forward.

[Gehenna.3625]

6 hours ago, Artyport.2084 said:

This is like the 8th time you guys have changed how you release content. 
 

Your lack of consistency over the years makes it hard to trust this company. 

Well at least they consistently change their minds 🤣

[Taclism.2406]

22 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

ANet has done very well in creating a MMO that goes off the beaten path, but after almost 11 years of playing the one thing that is sadly missing is a clear vision

I might be mixing vision and target audience but I think they're very intertwined with gw2 : GW2's main vision is to make one of the most casual friendly MMO , focus more on content for the average person with 2 to 5k dps, than challenging pve / pvp endgame or to add better tools ingame and raise the average person level without the need of add-ons / guides. 
I can't express how much of a double edge sword it is, both for gameplay balance, and as a business value, without writing way too much.

It's not that they don't have a vision, it's that their primary focus group is by nature not very vocal or even absent.  But because of that, it also leaves players like OP that are way more active questionning "all of this patience / devotion and for what?". (not that it justifies turning your point to entitlement, but it's what it boils down to)

Now you might argue they say in the post they split into teams to make new content for ALL active types of content so it may get better. It could. However, I'm still worried about their new format and waiting for clarifications. 

Idk if that specific point is a popular take or not, but I'd much rather have the "living world / story mini expansion" , the "strikes mini expansions", and so on and customize / buy what I actually want, rather than "just a little of everything every 6 months", which lowkey implies "everyone should buy the new mini expansion no matter what if they wanna play active content". 
 

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid being rude to other players.

Regards.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

1 hour ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Also, cars and shoes lol...if you don't like a product or how it's company is putting it out, you don't buy it.  Same with games.  Don't like it, then don't play it.  But companies are not obligated to tell the consumer their plans, just their investors and shareholders.

Very true. But cars and shoes aren't a continued investment. They're both a one time purchase. You might go back to the same store/brand when you inevitably need new ones, but in the meantime whatever the company does has no bearing on you. MMO's are a continued investment of at least time and, in the case of some people (like myself), also money. You also don't have to update your shoes or car every 2 years (i.e. expansions). They also don't change over time. The shoes you bought remain the same shoes, and so does the car. GW2, however, has changed quite a bit over the years. So in that way shoes/cars and MMO's are a bad analogy. That still doesn't mean a company owes us anything (except quality, but that goes for every product and service sold to the public). It's our choice to spend, after all, not theirs (yes, people, it is possible to not be susceptible to marketing tactics). But that's why I said the two are a bad analogy in this particular case.

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

Very true. But cars and shoes aren't a continued investment. They're both a one time purchase. You might go back to the same store/brand when you inevitably need new ones, but in the meantime whatever the company does has no bearing on you. MMO's are a continued investment of at least time and, in the case of some people (like myself), also money. You also don't have to update your shoes or car every 2 years (i.e. expansions). They also don't change over time.

Um... what? Cars do change over time and if you want new one, you need to buy new one. If you're ok with driving older car you paid for, you can still do it like you say. Similarly if you want to get new -expansion- features, you pay for the expansion to get the features. If you don't want to pay for it, you're free to keep drivin playing the older content you've previously paid for.

I'd say the difference here is that in order to drive your purchased car, you need to keep paying for gas. On the other hand, you don't need to keep paying to keep playing the game/expansion you've already purchased. Overally I don't see in what way the game is supposed to be bound to be a "continued investement" like you're triyng to claim it is.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Khisanth.2948]

An iterative process couldn't have ruined this game because ANet hasn't used an iterative process. A iterative process would be systemically refining the process with each iteration. ANet's process seems more like tearing everything down and restarting from scratch.

LS1 definitely had problems but they didn't iterate on that. They just tossed it aside for something else. IMO the pacing was just excessive for both players and developers. Changes to the world should have been translated to the language of gamers which means it should have included replayable content.

For starters they would need to be consistently consistent and not consistently inconsistent.

Some of the craziness might just be due to having two masters, ANet and NCSoft.

[Bladestrom.6425]

 

7 hours ago, Artyport.2084 said:

This is like the 8th time you guys have changed how you release content. 
 

Your lack of consistency over the years makes it hard to trust this company. 
 

lack of time frames and committing to those time frames has lost a lot of trust from me. 
 

every year it’s something different . 
 

no expansion, living world, permanent living world, expansion, sagas, now mini expansions. 
 

This inability to keep a system is making it so that this game will never achieve the success it should have. 
 

This needs to be the last model for at least 4 years and you need to be consistent with it. It’s exhausting as someone who loves this game watching a company ruin it’s potential over and over again .

 

you created a great game just deliver content to it regularly.

 

The wheel has been invented.. push it 

 

I have played this game since gw1 beta. I want to see it thrive finally. Also the blog post was a great Example of bad marketing. There was literally nothing to get people excited and so many things that leave new and old players with questions and vague  answers and offered nothing to get excited about. 
 

also why did it take you this long to communicate that you are no longer doing living world. You clearly knew this was no longer a thing and just decided to be vague about it since the release of eod. 
 

 

 

ive been playing since the 80s and have been a developer since the 90s. The one thing that differentiates a great software house from a mediocre one is the ability to learn and adapt and iterate quickly.  Its actually a primary goal of any development team.  What you are calling out is an extremely good thing not a bad thing.

Edited February 15, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Freya.9075]

Some people find change scary or don’t like having to adapt to them. But change isn’t necessarily a bad thing. When things do not work the way they intended, change is needed. 

Anet have been inconsistent, and when certain parts of the game didn’t work out as intended, they let it go and tried other things. That can be both annoying and intimidating if you really like a certain part of the game and you fear the same will happen there. But living world did have some issues with lack of information and causing new players a surprise when they have to pay gems or gold to continue the story. Some players handle it well, and others don’t. This change will mend this looking forward. 
 

I liked the blog post. I am excited for the future of this game. This is subjective ofc, and you’re free to feel however you feel about it, but don’t talk for others when you criticize their game. Instead of people in your opening post, you should have said “I” or “me”. Just saying. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Freya.9075

[Bladestrom.6425]

the underlying fear is that this means less content, which is driving some of the worry beans, but the best you can hope for is a responsive dev team which Anet is and the rest will come out in the wash.  No point worrying about what may or may not happen in the future.