Perma stealth on thiefs is wrong in WvW. Offers no counterplay.

[Cyninja.2954]

39 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

you accuse me of editing and you are editing. Did you read my post of Thief Nerf Wish List by Thief Profession Players on their forum?

I never accused you of editing and any editing I did was for clarity sake. Neither meaning nor nessage was changed.

 

The poster you are refering to was another. 

What I do take issue with is your offtopic derailing, and I stated so clearly.

39 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Those are suggestions and constructive discussions  by Thief Profession main players themselves who believes that their Profession especially Stealth Mechanic are indeed Toxic for the health of the game including having and leaving a negative experience with dealing with other Professions.

Even if that were the case. If these threads are years old, they hardly hold any relevance to todays issues.

Again, if your goal is to have stealth changed entirely, make a thread around that and stop derailing threads related to other issues.

Even this thread is not focused on removing or changing steath entirely but rather adapting some of its design. 

39 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

Here is a last post of (i don't know why it is not moved to Thief Profession forum) Thief Profession nerf list.

 

Throughout the years, i have met many Thief Profession players and are friends with them till this day who strongly believe that their Profession especially Stealth; is too Atrocious for the health of the game and offers too many Privileges/Forgiving for the Thief Profession Player, to not make mistakes.

 

This issue is not against Thief Profession Players but Anet who continues to refuse to make Stealth healthy and competitive.

Then make a thread around this issue and stop wasting peoples time in threads unrelated to this.

I get it. This is a passion project of yours (and by your theads I can't tell if you are even actively playing. You seem so out of touch with todays game, it's not unlikely that you are just lurking here not able to move on).

You are not helping in any way towards constructive feedback or discussion on how to approach todays stealth issues.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Burnfall.9573]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I never accused you of editing and any editing I did was for clarity sake. Neither meaning nor nessage was changed.

 

The poster you are refering to was another. 

WhatvIndo take issue wirh is your offtopic derailing, and I stated so clearly.

Even if that were the case. If these threads are years old, they hardly hold any relevance to todays issues.

Again, if your goal is to have changed entirely, make a thread around that and stop derailing threads related to other issues.

Even this thread is not focused on removing or changing steath entirely but rather adapting some of its design. 

 

Then make a thread around this issue and stop wasting peoples time in threads unrelated to this.

 

I get it. This is a passion project of yours (and by your theads I can't even tell if you are even actively playing. You seem so out of touch with todays game, it's not unlikely that you are just lurking here not able to move on). You are not helping in any way towards constructive feedback or discussion on how to approach todays stealth issues.

Please! do not speak for everyone else because they are in the forum just as i am, to address to Anet (once again), that PermStealth is Toxic

 

Todays stealth issues are 10 Years stealth issues: all the evidence are on Guild Wars 2 forum including the Guild Wars 2 old forum.

 

Time:  Nothing Ever Goes Away, Until We Learn From The Past

[Cyninja.2954]

20 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Please! do not speak for everyone else because they are in the forum just as i am, to address to Anet (once again), that PermStealth is Toxic

I wasn't speaking for anyone else (though you did accuse me of someone elses actions).

I was speaking for myself and sticking to the topic of this thread, which is NOT reworking stealth from the ground up.

20 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

Todays stealth issues are 10 Years stealth issues: all the evidence are on Guild Wars 2 forum including the Guild Wars 2 old forum.

No they are not. The issues today are very different both gameplay wise as well as balance wise.

The only issue which might be the same is if someone disagrees with the stealth design overall. Which as mentioned is fine, one doesn't have to enjoy how stealth is incorporated knto the game. That is a very different issue than how to balance the current stealth implementation.

Balancing stealth is not the same as reworking it from the ground up. That should be pretty obvious.

20 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

Time:  Nothing Ever Goes Away, Until We Learn From The Past

 

More gibberish nonsense which you like to plaster your threads with in some desperate attempt at wisdom?

Edited March 21, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Burnfall.9573]

7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I wasn't speaking for anyone else (though you did accuse me of someone elses actions).

I was speaking for myself and sticking to the topic of this thread, which is NOT reworking stealth from the ground up.

No they are not. The issues today are very different both gameplay wise as well as balance wise.

The only issue which might be the same is if someone disagrees with the stealth design overall. Which as mentioned is fine, one doesn't have to enjoy how stealth is incorporated knto the game. That is a very different issue than how to balance the current stealth implementation.

Balancing stealth is not the same as reworking it from the ground up. That should be pretty obvious.

 

More gibberish nonsense which you like to plaster your threads with in some desperate attempt at wisdom?

I learn from others experiences and know what they know. Does that intimidate you?

[Mabi black.1824]

If you ask someone like me I will tell you that the thief has always been a hateful class. The fact that you can literally disappear at the most opportune moment is a huge and odious advantage. however Anet created this class. And the thief is that stuff there. He is a sneaky player, you just have to accept him for what he is and learn to live with him, I think there is no way to change him. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Mabi black.1824

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

I learn from others experiences and know what they know. Does that intimidate you?

 

Not at all. I explained to you how your approach to something you seem passionate (irrational) about is counter productive. You can do with this as you like. Given your persona, I doubt anything I said will make a difference but that unfortunately only means that any discussion about stealth in this game will have to deal with your distractions and derailing.

 

Stealth is not my hill to die on. It seems to be yours.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

If you ask someone like me I will tell you that the thief has always been a hateful class. The fact that you can literally disappear at the most opportune moment is a huge and odious advantage. however Anet created this class. And the thief is that stuff there. He is a sneaky player, you just have to accept him for what he is and learn to live with him, I think there is no way to change him. 

I wouldn't be mad at a lowkey Predator style blended light silhouette with maybe visible and audible foot steps trailing like three feet behind me within some radius of non allies or something. Would still force people to think about directional hits and still allow opening setups from a distance. 

[Burnfall.9573]

47 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Not at all. I explained to you how your approach to something you seem passionate (irrational) about is counter productive. You can do with this as you like. Given your persona, I doubt anything I said will make a difference but that unfortunately only means that any discussion about stealth in this game will have to deal with your distractions and derailing.

 

Stealth is not my hill to die on. It seems to be yours.

My Desire, Passion Is For Stealth: Perm Stealth To Be Left In The Past. 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

On 3/15/2023 at 5:36 AM, Yunari.9065 said:

 

Willbender can one shot thief and is one of the strongest roaming spec right now. 

Mmmmmm I love taking my DPS druid build and fighting willys. They are strong for sure and can easily carry a bad player, however  thats what makes it satisfying fighting them...more often than not I can beat them

[blp.3489]

2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I wouldn't be mad at a lowkey Predator style blended light silhouette with maybe visible and audible foot steps trailing like three feet behind me within some radius of non allies or something. Would still force people to think about directional hits and still allow opening setups from a distance. 

This idea of increasing the tell-tales when in stealth seems the most likely to me to be productive.  Not that I expect everyone to agree on the appropriate level of telltales but if there was an incremental approach that gradually added more telltales and then gathered feedback, there might be some progress.  Unlike the usual "Remove stealth entirely!" vs "Stealth can't be changed!" back and forth.

I can imagine telltales under certain circumstance especially.  I'm sure there are ways for stealth to still be very useful without having to make the opponent completely blind.

[solemn.9670]

17 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Then Idk what else to suggest since slotting a reveal isn't your fancy, and I've explained several times on this thread the tricks and methods to flush out stealth players that aren't reveals.

Edit: Plus to me specing into countering stealth is no different than bringing more cleanses if i see a mallyx revenant, or boon rips if i see a firebrandt. I have several builds to accomplish several task which only takes 2 clicks to readjust.

u right I'll just use all my elementalist reveals

And then when another player jumps in to 2v1 I'll die quickly due to having a very specific build

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

2 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

u right I'll just use all my elementalist reveals

And then when another player jumps in to 2v1 I'll die quickly due to having a very specific build

Last time I checked, Shocking Aura is pretty good at stopping those pesky poke poke thieves, Stoneheart says nope to basically any power build, and Magnetic Aura spam says stop shooting yourself to pew pew Deadeyes.  And don't even get me started on how broken Catalyst is, which got nerfed in PvP, but not WvW.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

 

On 3/20/2023 at 8:45 AM, solemn.9670 said:

Slotting on my mark will be more than enough wasted utility to allow me to win any longer than 30 seconds fight. Sure yes, your point stands when it comes to the average pug maybe but vs an actual roamer if you don't have every possible advantage you've already lost lol

We already have to account for slotting excessive condi cleanse bc of aids condi builds, can't expect ppl to want to kitten themselves that much by accounting for power, excess condi spam, and stealth counters all in one build. Simply, thats gonna result in a lot of deaths if you solo roam lol

Reveal is not the only way to deal with stealth.  I hate having to dedicate utility slots to projectile denial just in case of sniper rangers or Harbingers, but they're part of the game.  If you want to roam, build to deal with other roamers.  Hotkey build/gear templates to swap between roles quickly.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

  

On 3/19/2023 at 4:07 PM, MasterDeere.3417 said:

Stealth is fine,

teleport is fine,

stealth + teleport IS a problem.

Does this apply to Mesmer, Ranger, Engi, and Guard (DH) too, or only Thief?

[prototypedragon.1406]

Stealth for all I say ,Warrior stealth this may! 😉

[cyberzombie.7348]

9 minutes ago, prototypedragon.1406 said:

Stealth for all I say ,Warrior stealth this may! 😉

We used to have a way.  Infiltration runes before the rework popped stealth at 20% hp. It always threw ppl off when I landed a killshot or bull's rush from it. 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 3/18/2023 at 6:59 PM, Seneca.6319 said:

So your advice is to:

1. dodge, evade, block something you can't see or target.

My advice is to stop misrepresenting reality in order to avoid getting better.

Way to ignore the part where I said "except for certain meme builds (most of which are not thieves) that can stealth from afar, and burst you from thin air" (paraphrasing), there is counterplay.

Blocks are typically channeled and many are subtly telegraphed.  You'd be surprised how much burst gets wasted into Blocks.  Especially now that Daredevil no longer has unblockable steal.

Knowing your opponent's build, cooldowns, and predicting their movements IS a part of (skilled) competitive play.  Good players do not need to see their opponent 100% of the time to fight them.  Just ask good players.

Or... keep pretending the most nerfed class in the game is still broken because it relieves you of having to improve.  Your choice.

On 3/18/2023 at 6:59 PM, Seneca.6319 said:

2. stop playing the class you like because Thief is broken.

I did.  Then after I learned how Thief works, I went back to it (and others) and play those even more.  Now, unless they're really good, Thieves don't trouble me much anymore.  I went from frozen in fear ("OMG they disappeared, now what do I do?) to "bring it on!"  And I'm not even the best player.  Far from it.  Just telling how I got over my Thiefphobia, for any who will listen.

On 3/18/2023 at 6:59 PM, Seneca.6319 said:

Have you read your advices to yourself? If not, you should...

Of course.  See above.

On 3/18/2023 at 7:04 PM, Seneca.6319 said:

Absolutely fabulous! You sir, take the prize with your comment. Especially since I play mesmer most of the times. Nowadays I mix it up with Elementalist but both suffer from lack of counter to thieves and mesmers are even worse since it' such a reactive class, it needs a target to get up clones, no target, no clones so it's a sitting duck against Thief.

Mesmer was my first and main.  Ele is my third most played in WvW, after Thief.  Both can deal with Thief just fine in the current balance.  Stop being me before I played Thief.  Play Thief for a while, go back to Mes/Ele.  Profit.

 

--

Everyone drop some Confused faces telling us you need to learn some Thief instead of QQing on a forum!

Edited March 21, 2023 by Twilight Tempest.7584

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, prototypedragon.1406 said:

Stealth for all I say ,Warrior stealth this may! 😉

I would prefer a pull to be truthful on my Wars.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

On 3/20/2023 at 4:12 PM, cyberzombie.7348 said:

You do know that most reveal skills applies 5 seconds at the minimum? With DHs, core warriors, and engis revealing up to 12. Spellpreakers can even go well beyond if spec'd for it. 

so what you are saying that people should only play 4 classes and spec them for reveal, just in case some thief is around.

 

This just shows how broken stealth is.

 

But there is a simple fix: remove stealth from the game.

[cyberzombie.7348]

30 minutes ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

so what you are saying that people should only play 4 classes and spec them for reveal, just in case some thief is around.

Mon Dieu No, and if you read my previous post on this thread you'll see that I've already explained the tricks and methods to counter stealth THAT AREN'T REVEALS. 

Secondly, they don't just counter thieves, it applies to any stealth campers, because suprise... They are not the only class that can do so. 

Thirdly,  if you played other classes you'd know that 6 out of 9 have some reveal. Thief doesn't need one since it would break thief vs thief match ups. Mesmers have ample supply of stealth by default on top of an on-demand invuln, target breaks, and blocks that riposte back to whomever, regardless of stealth. And ele long overdue for one (which I already mentioned in my very first post). 

Edited March 22, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[Burnfall.9573]

1 minute ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

so what you are saying that people should only play 4 classes and spec them for reveal, just in case some thief is around.

 

This just shows how broken stealth is.

 

But there is a simple fix: remove stealth from the game.

Yesterday, after my last post, I had conversations with my some of my Thief Profession friends about this forum topic. They all agreed that Stealth is beyond fixable and that the only solution for Anet to do to deal with it is to complete remove it from the entire game.

 

That Stealth is the biggest burden burden since Guild Wars 2 was released and that Anet should have kept it out in the game like in Guild Wars 1.

 

That Anet unwillingness to deal with Stealth shows that their vision and goal is to divide the community as much as possible for profit.

 

That it was never about us players, it was always about creating anything to make as much profit as possible.

 

[Burial.1958]

2 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Yesterday, after my last post, I had conversations with my some of my Thief Profession friends about this forum topic. They all agreed that Stealth is beyond fixable and that the only solution for Anet to do to deal with it is to complete remove it from the entire game.

 

That Stealth is the biggest burden burden since Guild Wars 2 was released and that Anet should have kept it out in the game like in Guild Wars 1.

 

That Anet unwillingness to deal with Stealth shows that their vision and goal is to divide the community as much as possible for profit.

 

That it was never about us players, it was always about creating anything to make as much profit as possible.

 

 

Lol.

[Gorani.7205]

Sorry, not reading 7 pages. But if you like the following list of my thoughts (in no particular order) about "stealth"+"thief"+"WvW", feel free to read:

• Problem: Thieves think that Stealth is their profession mechanic and the need to defend it at all cost. No, Steal is their profession mechanic.
• Problem: Large playing field (compared to PvP) allows Thieves, compared to other professions to use stealth + their mobility to reset small fights at will, promoting and encouraging a very toxic play style.
  Problem: Reveal abilities are very unevenly distributed among professions and can't be used to pressure a Thief to deviate from its "stealth, strike and re-stealth" play style. This includes utility skills, but also WvW mechanics like painter traps & warclaw sniffs.
• Problem: Thief players, after all theses years complaining that Sentries and Watchtower ruin their play style, because with those on the map, they have to play like everyone else (possibility to be seen) or actually not run close to those.
• Problem: Long range strikes from stealth with Deadeye. Since they added this elite profession, the ability to use strikes from stealth is force multiplier to other already mentioned problems with stealth. It is a lot easier to deal with a player using stealth at close distance than it is at 900+ range.
  Problem: Perma stealth is still possible out of combat, can be macro'ed to hide in a structure and in conjunction with Shadow Portal allows others to jump into a structure bypassing inner and outer wall in some cases.
• Problem: Stealth is probably the only ability in game that heavily profits from bad minion/summon/pet AI and latency issues (ability to react and strike back) at the same time.

[kooldude.7260]

I can't believe it has been like 10 years of Burnfall schizo-posting about thief being OP

Melee thief is in the weakest state it has been in since like 2016. Everyone has reveal, stealth of their own, just as much mobility, insane tankiness that lets them shrug off backstabs, or throws marks. L2P. You can take a backstab from an SA DD, then turn around and reveal + True Shot them for twice the damage back. Pure skill issue.

Edited March 22, 2023 by kooldude.7260

[solemn.9670]

32 minutes ago, kooldude.7260 said:

I can't believe it has been like 10 years of Burnfall schizo-posting about thief being OP

Melee thief is in the weakest state it has been in since like 2016. Everyone has reveal, stealth of their own, just as much mobility, insane tankiness that lets them shrug off backstabs, or throws marks. L2P. You can take a backstab from an SA DD, then turn around and reveal + True Shot them for twice the damage back. Pure skill issue.

Regarding balance:

DH being absurd is a DH issue.

Celestial being absurd is a celestial issue.

(Nearly every build that EoD created) being absurd is an EoD issue.

Builds that have been OP for over 3 years but still somehow untouched by anet is an anet not playing their own game issue.

SA Teef is an SA Teef issue.

Arguably the most fun but masochistic build in WvW for a long time, play fire/air/arcane dagger/dagger fresh air core ele and enjoy being 2-shot by your so-called weak builds 😹 you want to see a weak build, play anything that is actually fun and not OP to a level that makes being good at it irrelevant to everyone lol

Tl;dr version: everything is unbalanced, so is your thief build, sorry to break it to you like this, whole state of WvW is a kittening mess and Teef is not an exception