Defense is dead

[coures.1065]

I've been a WvW scout/defender for 4 years and the recent updates have been terrible. I get that WvW is clearly in dire need of something new to attract more people, but they've missed the mark so badly that I'm planning on quitting.

 

For the yak supply increase and objective supply decrease, from my speculation, they did this so that certain servers can't monopolize objectives for too long. It'd be easier for attackers to invade, but what about the people who actually have fun defending then? We have less supply to work with and distribute people to flips camps if need be instead of focusing on the invasion. Seems like a con for us.

 

I thought the reward system change would've fixed that. For a brief moment, I thought 'Hey! We're finally getting more out of defending our Borderlands which not many players go to. Building siege I paid with my low WvW earned gold and purchasing tricks and traps for stopping enemy siege is finally paying off. More people are repairing walls and gates that nobody ever cared about before instead of leaving it all to me!'

 

That is until several folks complained about how SMC 'oh woe is me' is always out of supplies because players abused it. And for some strange miraculous reason, Anet listened and then completely messed it up by not even getting a reward. Oh, how I wish they'd listen to me when I report thieves being able to teleport in a tower without using siege. Would've been the light of my life, but nooo they listened to SMC huggers instead.

 

Now despite how hard I participate in events I don't get rewards. 

 

Retaking objectives doesn't even give gold. I build up the siege, I kill the lord with people I called for and what do I get? Bronze.

 

A tower has an enemy trebbing Bay. I build counter siege and destroy the treb. I fix two walls that have massive HP by myself. What do I get? Nothing.

 

Enemy zerg comes in on Garrison. I call for help. I disable the siege and stall. I patch the walls so nobody else gets in. I destroy the siege. Our people wipe the enemy. What do I get? NOTHING.

 

Why? Because I have to kill a person to be considered as participating? How unfair is this? I helped too! I don't understand how I'm worthless after doing all of these things. It feels as if it's better to just let the enemy flip our objective. That way I would at least get bronze for the retake event, right?

 

Defending is dead. Whoever's a defender out there, just PPT and get your pity bronze.

[MarzAttakz.9608]

"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead..." ~ Butch

[Dawdler.8521]

Are... are you complaining that more people come and try to take your objectives, therefor defending is dead?

[coures.1065]

Are... are you serious? Did you just imply I was complaining about people invading when my topic was about unrewarded defenders? Defenders. People who actually have fun defending against said people who try to take over?

 

Here's a TLDR just for you, my good sir.

 

Denfense is dead because nobody in their right mind would spend so much time and effort just to be rewarded with nothing. 

[Mabi black.1824]

27 minutes ago, coures.1065 said:

Are... are you serious? Did you just imply I was complaining about people invading when my topic was about unrewarded defenders? Defenders. People who actually have fun defending against said people who try to take over?

 

Here's a TLDR just for you, my good sir.

 

Denfense is dead because nobody in their right mind would spend so much time and effort just to be rewarded with nothing. 

I often play the role of defender as you described. I enjoy doing it because sometimes I can argue with a small enemy group if the numbers allow. I also enjoy when the full enemy team shows up, because I will make my server call and hopefully I will participate in a large-scale fight. I also enjoy when a group of combat guilds shows up, they see you, and they flee to another target. 

I don't know why but they also prefer to take structures when they are empty.

So, is there anything wrong with the way I'm participating in this game mode, and the way I get my fun?

[LetoII.3782]

4 hours ago, coures.1065 said:

Why? Because I have to kill a person to be considered as participating? How unfair is this? I helped too! I don't understand how I'm worthless after doing all of these things. It feels as if it's better to just let the enemy flip our objective. That way I would at least get bronze for the retake event, right?

 

Defending is dead. Whoever's a defender out there, just PPT and get your pity bronze.

Whoops! accidentally hit the nail on the head.

You're skipping the PvP part of the PvP game mode.

If you want to flip things unopposed or do menial chores... Or shoot people with siege from safety...... Bronze it is.

[Chaos God.1639]

agree, wvw is a lot more than just flipping towers/keeps/camps every 5 mins.

[subversiontwo.7501]

2 hours ago, coures.1065 said:

Denfense is dead because nobody in their right mind would spend so much time and effort just to be rewarded with nothing. 

We play WvW, this is the way.

The whole new rewards initiative ended up being little more than giving PvE-guys WvW-stuff again.

Plus, another system ontop of existing systems. It would have been so much easier just flinging a couple of extra gold into the reward tracks. The differences in capturing differently-defended objectives is about as indistinguishable and unrewarding as defending them is. Attempting to switch these things up was a breath of fresh air from ArenaNet but they do not have a track record of success with these things and their backlog is so long, so they would do best focusing on one, simple, highly prioritised thing at a time: Things that may not need as much iteration, so they don't sit with multiple iteration-dependent projects open all at once.

Edited March 18, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Well, you may be defending, but the ArenaNet computer says "no" and you get no reward. Because it does not count if you defend or not, what counts if the computer registers that you defend. Repairing during a defense was a sure way to tell the computer: "Yes, I am there participating in the defense." but that is a thing of the past.

 

So for now, if you care about rewards, play offensively. Don't waste your time defending. Either go capture yourself or kill enemy players. And if you don't care about server goals: Let the enemy capture and take it back 5 minutes later yields far better rewards than defending.

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, coures.1065 said:

Are... are you serious? Did you just imply I was complaining about people invading when my topic was about unrewarded defenders? Defenders. People who actually have fun defending against said people who try to take over?

 

Here's a TLDR just for you, my good sir.

 

Denfense is dead because nobody in their right mind would spend so much time and effort just to be rewarded with nothing. 

Your own words:

Defending is dead. Whoever's a defender out there, just PPT and get your pity bronze.

How do people PPT?

Last time I checked, they go to objectives and then you can kill them at objectives. Call the reward change stupid if you want, but it didnt really change the act of defending. Well unless it was all about repairing walls I guess.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[kash.9213]

A lot of people are going to try to fill up their bags and find enough action with the time they have and a lot of people have limited time. There's no connection to the Open World or it's ongoing story or the players on those maps and other modes. WvW players lean into the dense action more because that's where they troubleshoot their builds with a lot of player interaction. It's unfortunate because the match time constraints compound the isolation of the game so people are naturally going to filter into an unofficial perpetual battlegrounds when there are enough people on the map and rewards are going to trend with them. 

I don't know why Anet went so hard on it though when it seems like most of the queue hogs are hanging around spawn or riding the blob to knock out achievements and requirements. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, coures.1065 said:

Defending is dead. Whoever's a defender out there, just PPT and get your pity bronze.

10% will always defend, 10% will never defend and 80% will defend or attack whichever is worth it. Reset was 80% karma train. Didn't see anything make it above T0 which isn't normal. Servers will vary but, fights did occur but not rarely at objectives, mostly all were open field. Gratz ANet karma training for win. Karma trains were born on borderlands and they were back in force on reset.

[MedievalThings.5417]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Are... are you complaining that more people come and try to take your objectives, therefor defending is dead?

Just a week ago there was tons of fighting around structures.  People fighting, repairing, sieging.  It would last hours and had tons of interaction from multiple servers.  Now, there is minimal fighting, and structures flipping because there is no point in "fighting" over them.  "Oh look, I just killed 25 people in WC" = other than some bags, no credit.  So, people aren't fighting over the structures, they're just letting everything flip.  Instead, large groups do nothing but ktrain or chase smaller groups.

[Johje Holan.4607]

4 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

Whoops! accidentally hit the nail on the head.

You're skipping the PvP part of the PvP game mode.

If you want to flip things unopposed or do menial chores... Or shoot people with siege from safety...... Bronze it is.

I'm sorry but you seem to be skipping the WvW part of WvW.  WvW is not and never has been about simply PvP.  Heck in the beginning we didn't even get warscore from kills.

The OP makes some valid points.  And there's some of these responses that are misrepresenting (perhaps unintentionally) what the OP said.  They never said that they don't want people attacking, or that they don't think killing players should be rewarded. 

Without people defending, WvW devolves into mainly only attacking, which leads to Karma training, which is actually only PvE.  So esentially, by rewarding only the PvP aspect of WvW, we are actually getting less PvP; the opposite of what it sounds like you (and most WvW'ers) want.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Johje Holan.4607

[Chocofox.9503]

4 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

Whoops! accidentally hit the nail on the head.

You're skipping the PvP part of the PvP game mode.

If you want to flip things unopposed or do menial chores... Or shoot people with siege from safety...... Bronze it is.

You do realize wvw isn't just pvp. It actually is about strategically capping and holding points to get or prevent the most points per tick. A well placed defender can stop objectives flipping and set back a small group by several minutes allowing larger groups to come in and clean up. Keeping a t3 objective from flipping over several ticks and removing the number of points these capping teams generate is a beneficial playstyle. Not only are they keeping more points for their team but usually these smaller groups will keep banging their head against an objective for much longer than they should. Playing this way is just as valid as running with the blob commanders. The only real difference is how rewards, and defend achievements, are treated. 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Just a week ago there was tons of fighting around structures.  People fighting, repairing, sieging.  It would last hours and had tons of interaction from multiple servers.  Now, there is minimal fighting, and structures flipping because there is no point in "fighting" over them.  "Oh look, I just killed 25 people in WC" = other than some bags, no credit.  So, people aren't fighting over the structures, they're just letting everything flip.  Instead, large groups do nothing but ktrain or chase smaller groups.

So I guess defense really was about repairing walls then 🤷‍♂️

[subversiontwo.7501]

23 minutes ago, Johje Holan.4607 said:

I'm sorry but you seem to be skipping the WvW part of WvW.  WvW is not and never has been about simply PvP.  Heck in the beginning we didn't even get warscore from kills.

I'll be honest and say that I didn't read enough of the exchange to comment on how the OP is being represented, however:

This is the cop-out most PvE tourists use when confronted by what WvW is. Just because there are walls and NPC's, it does not make WvW a PvE or PvX mode the way those things are usually defined.

Without players WvW does not offer its intended content and that is what makes it a PvP mode and nothing else, arguing anything else is assenine as you could argue that sPvP or any typical PvP game has flags and capture points. Every game and mode has an environment, however if you don't play against the environment it is not PvE or PvX: It is PvP. The NPC we have function as timers, not as content.

As far as the topic as a whole goes, it was glaringly obvious that the new system rewarded defense inaccurately. Does that mean offense is inaccurately rewarded now? I don't know or care, because it doesn't really feel like anything is accurately rewarded anymore. It feels like they've gone back to the drawing table and put thing back into a state of making the least amount of impact, to make the least amount of damage possible.

Edited March 18, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

So I guess defense really was about repairing walls then 🤷‍♂️

To the code it was. You kill attackers and it implies you weren't even there. This seems more like there were assumptions that the defense event coding was giving a false positive by giving defense for repair as it was coded to do, but was assumed it also triggered from killing players where as in fact it wasn't but assumed it was since there was no reason to question it. Remove the repair trigger and that reveals there are bugs that don't count a player kill as a defensive act because the attacker wasn't marked as a valid target because they didn't do actions to mark them as an attacker. Incentive has always been to the attacker, this just reinforces that more. 

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

10% will always defend, 10% will never defend and 80% will defend or attack whichever is worth it. Reset was 80% karma train. Didn't see anything make it above T0 which isn't normal. Servers will vary but, fights did occur but not rarely at objectives, mostly all were open field. Gratz ANet karma training for win. Karma trains were born on borderlands and they were back in force on reset.

Eh Grimm, plenty of stuff made it past T0 last night, even on your homebl you had north camp at T3 and heavily defended with zergs and golems. A lot of things flip flop on reset night because there's nothing at T3 and fully sieged, but a lot of things do get defended, it's just harder when there's constant fires to put out against two other map queues.

[blp.3489]

6 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Remove the repair trigger and that reveals there are bugs that don't count a player kill as a defensive act because the attacker wasn't marked as a valid target because they didn't do actions to mark them as an attacker.

I think you nailed it.  It seems like an easy first step toward fixing it would be that any enemy inside your objective is an attacker.  I have no idea if that is easy to code.

Edit: maybe an easy second step is that anyone who builds siege within range of your objective is also an attacker.

Edited March 18, 2023 by blp.3489

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Eh Grimm, plenty of stuff made it past T0 last night, even on your homebl you had north camp at T3 and heavily defended with zergs and golems. A lot of things flip flop on reset night because there's nothing at T3 and fully sieged, but a lot of things do get defended, it's just harder when there's constant fires to put out against two other map queues.

I will take your word for it, I wasn't on HBL and agree with map queues and the map queue bug that is still ongoing, didn't get a chance to switch maps. Even on enemy maps there is some trying to hold what they own, last night, you could watch the trains circling. Did make for some fun open field fights but...not good.  

Edited March 18, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
wasnt vs was

[Xenesis.6389]

24 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I will take your word for it, I wasn't on HBL and agree with map queues and the map queue bug that is still ongoing, didn't get a chance to switch maps. Even on enemy maps there is some trying to hold what they own, last night, you could watch the trains circling. Did make for some fun open field fights but...not good.  

Well on ebg it certainly was more train like, not unusual there tbh when focus is heavy on smc, but it also has closer objectives, and much easier to get double teamed quickly, especially if there's a giant map queue "boon blob" that bullies the entire map *cough* certain guild from sor *cough*. On home maps it will always feel like you're getting double teamed, but the advantage is being able to hold one more tower than the other two sides, unless you get into prolonged garrison fights then that goes out the window. On desert good luck with any of that when it takes twice as long to get anywhere.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[Johje Holan.4607]

18 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

This is the cop-out most PvE tourists use when confronted by what WvW is. Just because there are walls and NPC's, it does not make WvW a PvE or PvX mode the way those things are usually defined.

Without players WvW does not offer its intended content and that is what makes it a PvP mode and nothing else, arguing anything else is assenine as you could argue that sPvP or any typical PvP game has flags and capture points. Every game and mode has an environment, however if you don't play against the environment it is not PvE or PvX: It is PvP. The NPC we have function as timers, not as content.

Whoh, I never said that WvW was a PvE or PvX mode.  (I will also assume you are not calling me a PvE tourist because I've been mainly a WvW player since Beta.  Barely scratched the surface of PvE although I do think I'm going to go back and do some after returning to the game - Cantha baby).  Of course its a PvP mode.  My statement about it not being about "simply PvP" meant that it is not only about direct fighting between players using their weapons/various skills.  WvW is so much more than that which is what makes it so awesome in my view.  And it attracts a lot of different players than would a mode where fighting other players directly was more the focus.  Therefore, the mode needs to reward all aspects if it is to be a healthy thriving game mode.  And it seems like if they don't reward those other aspects, there is actually less direct fighting between players.

[TheGrimm.5624]

42 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Well on ebg it certainly was more train like, not unusual there tbh when focus is heavy on smc, but it also has closer objectives, and much easier to get double teamed quickly, especially if there's a giant map queue "boon blob" that bullies the entire map *cough* certain guild from sor *cough*. On home maps it will always feel like you're getting double teamed, but the advantage is being able to hold one more tower than the other two sides, unless you get into prolonged garrison fights then that goes out the window. On desert good luck with any of that when it takes twice as long to get anywhere.

Yeah, checked home this afternoon and things were just getting papered. Won't fully blamed that on changes since its Sat afternoon but a lot less responding to defense. Not worth the frustration, just logged and will head out to another game for this afternoon.

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Last time I checked, they go to objectives and then you can kill them at objectives.

Good, you killed someone. And it didn't count, because that person didn't kill an NPC or damaged the wall before. Or because they died outside the event area. Or, you didn't actually kill them, but still chased them away and thus succesfully defended the objective.

In all those cases (and many others that constitute major contribution to defense but do not directly involve killing anyone - like countersieging) you get nothing, because the system does not consider your behaviour as participation in "defence".

Let that sink in for you: you can very actively and succesfully defend an objective, and still not get rewarded for it, because the system does not recognize your effort.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Astralporing.1957