Defense is dead

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, coures.1065 said:

Third, WvW isn't just about killing people. Here's a not-so-secret, I hated WvW at first because I also thought at one point that WvW = PvP.

Here's another not-so-secret thing - WvW has always been about killing when it comes to participation and loot. Thats how Anet designed it years ago, thats how it remained designed with the event buff, thats how its still designed after the nerf.

Funny thing - after the loot buff but before the nerf, I was defending nc with a few guildies. Opposite us was 2 thief roamers - 2 d/p SA daredevils on the exact same builds of course and they hit once then vanished repeat until you puke. We defended the camp, we stared at each other poking a little now and then. Had to build ballistas. They where still there. 

But guess what - after a while, we couldnt really stay any longer. Sure they didnt take the camp while we defended it. But we had gone from T6 to T4 participation and it take at least a minute to find an enemy guard or whatever to just stop decay, let alone get it up again. 

Thry couldnt kill us, we could kill them.

No partipation in WvW by Anets definition.

No rewards, despite the camp being constantly contested.

And of course they took it after we left because no one else could bother to defend.

Alas, if there would have been a tiny little disconnectef wall we could hammer with 1 supply up there we would have been SHOWERED in rewards and participation.

Oh how we lament those poor people not getting rewards, those true defenders running in to repair and bugger off.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 3/18/2023 at 11:13 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Just went to SBI garrison, it was one of the most sieged up keeps I've seen in a while. Also their nec had like 7 golems ready to defend it. Seems to me SBI puts in more effort into defending than other servers. Defending dead? eh don't think so, seems the same as usual.

SBI tends to be, which is where when I see our server saying we can just take it sets off the alarm bells for me. So what we end up with is more people on SBI double reacting and throwing down more defense if we have more walls falling. But I posted enough about it that I didn't want to group think so took a break. Hope your hunting went well on the weekend.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Here's another not-so-secret thing - WvW has always been about killing when it comes to participation and loot. Thats how Anet designed it years ago, thats how it remained designed with the event buff, thats how its still designed after the nerf.

Funny thing - after the loot buff but before the nerf, I was defending nc with a few guildies. Opposite us was 2 thief roamers - 2 d/p SA daredevils on the exact same builds of course and they hit once then vanished repeat until you puke. We defended the camp, we stared at each other poking a little now and then. Had to build ballistas. They where still there. 

But guess what - after a while, we couldnt really stay any longer. Sure they didnt take the camp while we defended it. But we had gone from T6 to T4 participation and it take at least a minute to find an enemy guard or whatever to just stop decay, let alone get it up again. 

Thry couldnt kill us, we could kill them.

No partipation in WvW by Anets definition.

No rewards, despite the camp being constantly contested.

And of course they took it after we left because no one else could bother to defend.

Alas, if there would have been a tiny little disconnectef wall we could hammer with 1 supply up there we would have been SHOWERED in rewards and participation.

Oh how we lament those poor people not getting rewards, those true defenders running in to repair and bugger off.

Either way with the wall repair or without you would think they were looking for more action also in the camps, which was occurring with the repair in place even for people that didn't defend. On Sunday watched a T0 hills get run over by a group and then helped smash the same group in an open field fight at a T2 North Camp that had been sieged up expecting the group to smash a T0 NEC, which they ran over, but had enough peeps that dislike losing our stuff to block the NC take. When it hit T3 peeps were happy that it made, and as you put, it meant nothing except to the ones that just didn't want it to fall. That said it doesn't have to be one defender versus another issue. Granted I am happy we are having defense conversations. I hope Anet is watching various server map chats though for reactions for various angels of the conversation. 

[misterman.1530]

And here's something odd about towers and defense or attacks...

I built a cata and took down SWT wall (it was already pretty low). Attacked the Lord on my own while others were coming. Had the Lord down to 70% when the others appeared. We killed the Lord and capped the tower...and I got Silver, not Gold. 

I mean, jeebus...if Anet can't get that right, how the heck will the ever get Defense right?

[subversiontwo.7501]

On 3/18/2023 at 6:30 PM, Johje Holan.4607 said:

Whoh, I never said that WvW was a PvE or PvX mode.  (I will also assume you are not calling me a PvE tourist because I've been mainly a WvW player since Beta.  Barely scratched the surface of PvE although I do think I'm going to go back and do some after returning to the game - Cantha baby).  Of course its a PvP mode.  My statement about it not being about "simply PvP" meant that it is not only about direct fighting between players using their weapons/various skills.  WvW is so much more than that which is what makes it so awesome in my view.  And it attracts a lot of different players than would a mode where fighting other players directly was more the focus.  Therefore, the mode needs to reward all aspects if it is to be a healthy thriving game mode.  And it seems like if they don't reward those other aspects, there is actually less direct fighting between players.

Good of you to clarify. Me, I'm not too concerned with what people "are", I just felt it poignant to point out that "WvW isn't just PvP" is a remark people make when they come in to argue that WvW is PvX or suggest that it has PvE elements, which it really doesn't. Maybe I'm getting jaded, but we've just seen it brought up so many times. That often has an outside perspective of what WvW is or should be, in topics like what direction things like rewards or maps should go in.

The way you phrase it here we can agree upon 100%. I share that view.

Edited March 21, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[IndigoSundown.5419]

On 3/18/2023 at 8:13 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Just went to SBI garrison, it was one of the most sieged up keeps I've seen in a while. Also their nec had like 7 golems ready to defend it. Seems to me SBI puts in more effort into defending than other servers. Defending dead? eh don't think so, seems the same as usual.

You  are correct.  Defending is not dead.  However, all of SBI's siege will only get them defend credit if they use it to defeat an enemy player who is deemed to be "attacking" those objectives by ANet's criteria.

 

Also, while defending as a roamer or in a small group is not technically dead, it is feeling proper poorly.  The only incentive for such players to go to defend is if they want to gamble enough people will show up to actually hold the objective in the face of a large enemy group, or in those rare instances when the attacking group is small.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:10 AM, Johje Holan.4607 said:

SBI does have our stalwart defenders. That’s one reason I like being here.  And I like being with Ebay. They’ve got some good players and commanders that will come to the defense when a call is out out.

Yesterday one of you enemy servers were attacking Gari and one Bay. We didn’t have enough to defend both so we had to save Gari first. Then by the time we got to Bay, inner was almost down. So we lost a waypointed Bay.

Was a fun time. But - when we lost Bay, it still had like 600-700 supply in it!  I can’t help but wonder if the wall repair rewards were still in place if some people would have been repairing and we might have been able to save it. Talk about wasted supply - leaving hundreds of supply in a keep when it’s taken is the worst kind of waste!

oh hai! Always like finding other SBI peeps out here. Without trying to quote for a matchup thread will send a /wave to Ebay, it's been a good pairing. When we part, good hunting to you all.

On SBI, Xen this might make you laugh, while they discourage wall repair we should double down on defense siege. The key though will be to ID people throwing down base siege and get them Superior Siege since its less of a waste of supply. 

[Xenesis.6389]

8 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

On SBI, Xen this might make you laugh, while they discourage wall repair we should double down on defense siege. The key though will be to ID people throwing down base siege and get them Superior Siege since its less of a waste of supply. 

I think you all in SBI have been getting your water supply from Seigebend. Don't think I've seen wall repair discouraged other than it still being actively being hit, and of course not in the middle of a fight where your forces in using it as a choke. But yeah walmart siege is laughable, you can buy superior for cheap. Kinda weird how you guys don't want to repair walls to keep people out, but willing to build a half dozen omega golems to hold a camp, but it gets taken without anyone around to operate the golems. 🤭

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

I think you all in SBI have been getting your water supply from Seigebend. Don't think I've seen wall repair discouraged other than it still being actively being hit, and of course not in the middle of a fight where your forces in using it as a choke. But yeah walmart siege is laughable, you can buy superior for cheap. Kinda weird how you guys don't want to repair walls to keep people out, but willing to build a half dozen omega golems to hold a camp, but it gets taken without anyone around to operate the golems. 🤭

lol, its funny since that was one of the ones I was bouncing around after the camp increase to 150 we would be seeing more of and yeah, its showing up. That said after the repair change I agree more and more Omegas are showing up. 

[Gehenna.3625]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:35 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Here's another not-so-secret thing - WvW has always been about killing when it comes to participation and loot. Thats how Anet designed it years ago, thats how it remained designed with the event buff, thats how its still designed after the nerf.

And yet with the November 9th patch in 2021 they REMOVED the participation from wall repairs. So before that date there was a participation bonus for repairing walls. So I disagree with your comment on participation in the sense that it's always been that way as you suggest.

And of course there's cappping ruins/monuments. 

My point is that it's not as absolute as you say.

And besides, you're allowed to not kill anything and just stand in the capping circles to get credit for capping the objectives. Sure, someone does have to do the killing of the NPCs but you can leech off them and that's been that way for years.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Gehenna.3625

[zemiacsik.4590]

1) I was bubbling wall with shield generator to keep it up so others can fight enemies and destroy siege outside for about ten minutes and I the only thig I achieved that I almost lost my wvw participation because of zero credit for the defense

2) I had built some defensive siege, repelled enemies, destroyed rams, repaired gate and got zero credit for the defense

Yes, defending something is worthless.. you just hurt yourself both mentally and in-game.

Edited March 24, 2023 by zemiacsik.4590
removed extra lines

[Gibson.4036]

It's funny how "Player versus Player" has come to mean "Players killing Players". If you're strategically taking objectives from enemy players, and they're trying to take them from you, it's still "Player versus Player", even if you never get a single hit in.

I'm not saying it's not fun to actually battle, nor that WvW should just be teams circle flipping objectives.

But the whole "Oh, golly, you must just want PvE" whenever players actually want siege warfare to function like siege warfare is just a straw man argument.

[Megastorm.6219]

Oh...Mega golems....

[Gehenna.3625]

3 hours ago, zemiacsik.4590 said:

1) I was bubbling wall with shield generator to keep it up so others can fight enemies and destroy siege outside for about ten minutes and I the only thig I achieved that I almost lost my wvw participation because of zero credit for the defense

2) I had built some defensive siege, repelled enemies, destroyed rams, repaired gate and got zero credit for the defense

Yes, defending something is worthless.. you just hurt yourself both mentally and in-game.

You will get credit for destroying enemy siege. At least wxp and participation. But I think you're right, it doesn't count for defense objectives.

The defend the tower objective that's a weekly achievement asks you to defend towers 8 times. Last week I didn't get it, this week I did. I just happened to land in a fight between two blobs that was going on for a while. And because the defend event repeats every 2-3 minutes I completed it in one go. I'm just not sure that that makes sense, but it's how it works.

Towers just aren't really a prime target these days. People rather go for SMC or Keeps. And that's where the rewards drive them.

 

[Player.2475]

I resonate with this thread. My biggest complaint with WvW has been that if you don't get a kill or repair a broken structure, it doesn't matter if you managed to scare a group of 20 players into running away. You get no rewards.

 

Now they reduced defending to the point that only getting kills counts. So, no matter how active you are, how much you repair, how much you disable or destroy enemy siege... if you didn't get a kill, you are no better than someone who's been AFK at the waypoint for the last 10 minutes.

[Xenesis.6389]

It must suck playing this game mode by constantly worrying about your achievements and participation bar.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:35 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Here's another not-so-secret thing - WvW has always been about killing when it comes to participation and loot. Thats how Anet designed it years ago, thats how it remained designed with the event buff, thats how its still designed after the nerf.

Funny thing - after the loot buff but before the nerf, I was defending nc with a few guildies. Opposite us was 2 thief roamers - 2 d/p SA daredevils on the exact same builds of course and they hit once then vanished repeat until you puke. We defended the camp, we stared at each other poking a little now and then. Had to build ballistas. They where still there. 

But guess what - after a while, we couldnt really stay any longer. Sure they didnt take the camp while we defended it. But we had gone from T6 to T4 participation and it take at least a minute to find an enemy guard or whatever to just stop decay, let alone get it up again. 

Thry couldnt kill us, we could kill them.

No partipation in WvW by Anets definition.

No rewards, despite the camp being constantly contested.

And of course they took it after we left because no one else could bother to defend.

Alas, if there would have been a tiny little disconnectef wall we could hammer with 1 supply up there we would have been SHOWERED in rewards and participation.

Oh how we lament those poor people not getting rewards, those true defenders running in to repair and bugger off.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The wall trick was a bypass to the very issue you described. Sure, that "fix" wasn't universally available, but at least towers, keeps and castle had it.

In short, the real issue is not (removal of) participation for wall repair. The issue is that event participation qualifications are a total mess - mostly for defence, but for offence as well. This is where the primary effort to fix things should go - not towards removing features that were used to bypass that still existing, major issue.

[Chichimec.9364]

On 3/25/2023 at 7:29 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

...the real issue is not (removal of) participation for wall repair. The issue is that event participation qualifications are a total mess - mostly for defence, but for offence as well. This is where the primary effort to fix things should go...

For me, this statement points directly at the heart of the issue. As far as I can tell, defense is NOT dead, defense participation is just broken. People are very much still actively defending. In a two hour run this morning I easily got my weekly Invasion Incinerator achievement and more by fighting to cap or defend SMC as well as various keeps and towers on the borderland maps. And even though there was no direct reward for doing so, our tag still asked everyone to repair the walls on key structures like our garri and any Tier 3 keeps we held.

Prior to the removal of participation for wall repair, our squad generally followed the 1 tap rule. When we defended any structure, we would all put one tap of repair into a damaged wall as the best way to be sure of getting credit for the defense. Now though, defense participation seems totally wonky. In the same fight, when we kill a number of attackers, some folks in our squad will get defense credit while others will not. Folks playing much needed support roles still have the hardest time getting any defense credit at all. Hopefully Anet will rectify this mess soon but who knows when and if they actually will.

[Arzikin.1076]

Quote

Такое ощущение, что лучше просто позволить врагу перевернуть нашу цель. Так я бы хотя бы получил бронзу за пересдачу, верно?

this/

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

For me, this statement points directly at the heart of the issue. As far as I can tell, defense is NOT dead, defense participation is just broken. People are very much still actively defending. In a two hour run this morning I easily got my weekly Invasion Incinerator achievement and more by fighting to cap or defend SMC as well as various keeps and towers on the borderland maps. And even though there was no direct reward for doing so, our tag still asked everyone to repair the walls on key structures like our garri and any Tier 3 keeps we held.

Prior to the removal of participation for wall repair, our squad generally followed the 1 tap rule. When we defended any structure, we would all put one tap of repair into a damaged wall as the best way to be sure of getting credit for the defense. Now though, defense participation seems totally wonky. In the same fight, when we kill a number of attackers, some folks in our squad will get defense credit while others will not. Folks playing much needed support roles still have the hardest time getting any defense credit at all. Hopefully Anet will rectify this mess soon but who knows when and if they actually will.

This.

Put some supply in to make sure I got credit and then attack the attackers (or support my group while they attacked).

[aspirine.6852]

I call BS. Defense means you are defending something against players so you get to kill them. Instead of looking for players they come to you, how convenient is that?

[Gehenna.3625]

5 hours ago, aspirine.6852 said:

I call BS. Defense means you are defending something against players so you get to kill them. Instead of looking for players they come to you, how convenient is that?

That's total bs...how ironic.

Try getting kills as a random group defending against a boonball. They can just stay alive indefinitely pretty much. The only chance you have is to kill their siege so they can't come in.

I mean other sides will come and attack your objectives anyways. Should people not defend then according to you? There's nothing convenient about getting a group of 40+ players come to your home garri. It's actually more convenient to fight them at their objectives because then you have nothing to lose.

[Ashen.2907]

Responded to EWP for Garrison, got 17 player kills while the defend event timer was up. Took multiple run downs of the timer, several events, before the enemy zerg finally retreated. Zero defend credit despite getting kills during 5 events.

Top notch work there devs.

 

Edit: After retreating from Garrison the enemy zerg went after Sunnyvale. I joined the defense. Event timer up. Multiple kills. No credit.

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Edit: After retreating from Garrison the enemy zerg went after Sunnyvale. I joined the defense. Event timer up. Multiple kills. No credit.

Well theres the problem. The enemy zerg was attacking Silicon Valley, not your HBL so no wonder you didnt get defense credit.

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well theres the problem. The enemy zerg was attacking Silicon Valley, not your HBL so no wonder you didnt get defense credit.

Ugh, I have a work meeting (that I am very much not looking forward to) scheduled in Sunnyvale next week and mixed it up. Sorry, I did mean Sunnyhill.