Join squads, please.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Lorendyl Azoradaelas.5203 said:

What are you on about?  That's not even relevant to my post... just some random unhinged rant.

You tell us, you brought up zerk rangers. You are also the one misquoting people? Not sure where you are going. Want to clarify?

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 4/27/2023 at 3:28 PM, Riba.3271 said:

So many people here seem to divert the fault to commanders being bad or toxic, but as I experience it, lot of people aren't even given a chance to prove themselves. But you know, I guess everyone has their excuses. "Struggle for 6 months, and I might consider you! If you're new or returning commander, go away!". You do realise those new commanders are only tagging up out of desperation from wanting to actually play the game because all the experienced commanders have already given up on getting good fights with enemy (and allied server) never being able to bring anything remotely organised?

 

Your reputation precedes yourself. You have proven yourself, just not in the manner you'd like.

It definitely is both sides of the same coin. One is always going to have more success creating or joining a squad if they're more involved in their community. And when I mean getting involved, I mean getting to know people.  That gives one more leeway. 

Maybe someone that comes in with some weird build will get invited if they are already known as a solid player. But if it's some rando, it's much more likely they just came in with some nonsense and will die in 0.3 seconds.

Now I'm sure you've made these decisions when getting people in squad, but people do the same when they choose a tag to follow.

 

And the same goes with some commander that comes in barking orders. Just like there's no reason to believe that the random pug with an offmeta build isn't a rallybot, there is no real reason to believe that the tag isn't one either.

If I were to define qualities of failed commanders I would definitely say the common trait is them all having a Savior Complex. They want to fix everyone's problems, whether those people want to or not.  Even if they happen to be right, burnout is inevitable.

It is entirely possible the server you are on is simply dead, and to be fair the revolving door of links makes it hard. That's why it's necessary to coordinate this with other organized groups so at least you'll have overlap in your groups  when you raid. This may unfortunately require moving though.

If you don't do this, then it just becomes a transaction. You put people in squad because they're useful to your cause, and people join it because they seek to benefit from it. Of course, once this passes, there is no real surprise when they dump you for the next flashier train.

Too many people treat this relationship as a lord talking down to the peasants. This is not really a good idea since revolts usually turn out pretty ugly.

Edited April 30, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I think the biggest problem with WvW is how many guilds have transformed into fight guilds, and how many commanders are running these guilds instead of helping their server flourish.

 

As a game mode, its fun to have large, epic battles in WvW, but its also not how the game is "won" and does very little for any players not involved in these fights. Anyone outside of your group basically gets nothing from it, and often has to watch their maps slowly turn into enemy colors while getting farmed at every turn.

 

True WvW guilds and commanders are those that know how to guide PUGs, who know how to split their forces up across multiple maps and address multiple goals and objectives at the same time and ensure the players on their server aren't suffering and quitting the game mode while they throw themselves over and over at a 50man enemy zerg for the thrill of it or spending several hours at a three-way fight in Stonemist.

We are where we are because the game mode has devolved into "what I want" instead of "what's good for everyone". This is made worse by most of the best tags playing on multiple servers now so they don't even have any loyalty and no one can trust them since they're clearly just there for the fights.

 

The truth is, squads have become mostly meaningless, and outside of the late night PPT k-train,  most of the work is done by PUGs these days anyway. If not for all those "useless" out-of-squad players, you'd never see your own objectives in your color ever again because fight guilds (which have become the majority at this point) simply don't care what color your stuff is.

Edited April 30, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[subversiontwo.7501]

3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

One is always going to have more success creating or joining a squad if they're more involved in their community.

If I were to define qualities of failed commanders I would definitely say the common trait is them all having a Savior Complex.

You put people in squad because they're useful to your cause, and people join it because they seek to benefit from it. Of course, once this passes, there is no real surprise when they dump you for the next flashier train.

 

2 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I think the biggest problem with WvW is how many guilds have transformed into fight guilds, and how many commanders are running these guilds instead of helping their server flourish.

True WvW guilds and commanders are those that know how to guide PUGs, who know how to split their forces up across multiple maps and address multiple goals and objectives at the same time
We are where we are because the game mode has devolved into "what I want" instead of "what's good for everyone". This is made worse by most of the best tags playing on multiple servers now

The truth is, squads have become mostly meaningless, and outside of the late night PPT k-train,  most of the work is done by PUGs these days anyway. If not for all those "useless" out-of-squad players, you'd never see your own objectives in your color ever again because fight guilds (which have become the majority at this point) simply don't care what color your stuff is.

• I think there are bits and pieces in both these posts worth adressing, but I took the liberty to do some snipping since each is long enough on their own.
• Most things in WvW is intertwined, it is, after all, a game mode with many submodes that form an eco system.
• We have been waiting for 11 years now for our day-1 issues to be solved. It has been 10 years since the developer first aknowledged those most fundamental issues and they have been "trying" to solve them ever since.

Many of the issues you describe now started much earlier. It has been many years since the server communities began collapsing but it is only recently that it became obvious to most people. People happily spent years following the same old commanders with little thought as to what first fostered those commanders. People spent years just echoing the same information instead of building and maintaining their communities.

Like Archon says up there, commanding is a twosided relationship and that extends further beyond just any given squad as it is formed. Fostering players and commanders begins before any squad is formed. We've just been riding the same complacent waves out until they wash out for years on end. The same game-breaking problems has been around, making fewer and fewer players who want to build and be creative stay around, just keeping what we have had on routine until less and less of that routine is left. Up until the point where it fizzles out piece by piece on different servers and anything above it becomes nigh myth (busts, havoc, focus etc., many of those things are becomming mythical).

So what does that mean?

What servers still have community guilds? Community guilds that know their role and purpose? What servers still have a healthy spread of differently- sized and ambitious private guilds? What servers still have their own builds, guides and information management? The reality is that much of those players and player-groups have quit and we just surf the routine and banks of what's left, until there's nothing left.

As different pieces disappear on different servers we have it more and more difficult to match up. There are not more fight guilds now than before, there are just fewer guilds overall and less diversity in what guilds are left and what content they can find to match up against. Players and player-groups have quit and transfered for many years now over servers going full, becomming too small, too large or too uneven to find matching content.

It is no players fault that communities are collapsing, no communities are built or actively maintained or that guilds are transfering. Transfering and maintaining server communities is apart of a server system that should have been replaced years ago. How people form or join public squads is just one end of a longer chain. If experienced players are stacking on the same server and if those servers have little content beyond clouding or behave in less-than-stellar ways, that is a sign of players giving up. They don't do it to win. They do it to avoid issues. Their guilds are dead, no one is building community more ambitiously as that involves piecing together all those differently-sized pieces that make up a WvW whole and they have just stopped caring: Same as the developer who doesn't care enough to fix those 10-year old problems with building.

Most people have been happy just following that tag who learnt how to lead public with his/her friends in 2014, on the same mode-wide meta builds and care only about "their" server, until that, well, isn't. Now more guilds look inward. Not to build their guilds up, but to keep routine and (low-effort-) content. To adress that last note too: PPT is the thing most affected by the population imbalance and scoring farce. That is why no one cares beyond manipulating it for access to perceived content. It is the least balanced part of WvW. Soft says "work", but what are they working for? To get to T1? T1 has been infested with whatever has the most players for years and the same servers that have trouble getting out of T5 without a link, have trouble getting out of T1 with a link.

Rebuilding community involves having all different pieces and having them communicate. Having them see their place and role to pull together. It is much more than for private guilds to just contribute to the public content and content requires a match up that goes beyond just having rebuilt your own community. No one commander splits their forces up: Much like having followers that let themselves be lead, forces splitting up hinges alot on having those prebuilt pieces to move around. If you want to havoc, have those havoc groups, from those havoc guilds. That is a community-thing much more than it is a commander thing. If you expect a lone player to do all that by themselves, that says far more about what the problem is than anything else: a system that no longer supports building community and players expecting routine.

Edited April 30, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[Mabi black.1824]

10 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

That is why no one cares beyond manipulating it for access to perceived content. It is the least balanced part of WvW. Soft says "work", but what are they working for? To get to T1? T1 has been infested with whatever has the most players for years and the same servers that have trouble getting out of T5 without a link, have trouble getting out of T1 with a link.

all very interesting, but the part that I mentioned in my opinion is the substantial one.

inside these few lines is everything that doesn't work in wvw. from t1 to t5 we should see similar content and amount of content. if one is double the other it doesn't work. development should have a goal. differences of + or - 10%? and take an active stance and trigger any mode changes/updates to get there.

if you create the ''right/acceptable'' conditions then everything will work as expected. from t1 to t5. in the same instant that you create the right conditions, you will also see the servers and their communities work correctly, because players like to get busy, form groups, learn from others, observe others, etc.

players coming and going or taking a break and then coming back or not is all normal in this genre of games. the important thing is that when a player enters, in our favorite mode, he is able to perceive a competitive environment, the confrontation between large groups of real players. and if you also put a long-term goal in there, then everything works better.

 

if we want to make another consideration, this morning I read the 24h daily average flows of gw2 on the internet. they give it to 5500 average players an hour. (not sure how accurate that is) 70 players is enough to fill a map, 210 players if you want them to play 3 sides full.

if you put them all in wvw you will need 26 games, while we know that 5 are enough and they are almost too many in eu. in proportion of those 26 gw2 players only 5 go here to wvw. not exactly a cornerstone, at least numerically. if we want to discuss how one of a kind it can be, then everything changes.

at least for me, because in this sense wvw becomes like a precious stone, very rare and of unique beauty. much more than a cornerstone.✌️

Edited May 1, 2023 by Mabi black.1824

[Stand The Wall.6987]

yeah i wish casuals would comp up but gw2 is a casual game and anything that goes against that will get push back. when theres too many squirrel builds then those ppl are just griefing your team and making the squad wipe so they can do some dps before they die. selfish ppl in a team setting are the worst, they waste everyones time when they could change a few things and still enjoy the game while actually benefitting their team.

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

if we want to make another consideration, this morning I read the 24h daily average flows of gw2 on the internet. they give it to 5500 average players an hour. (not sure how accurate that is) 70 players is enough to fill a map, 210 players if you want them to play 3 sides full.

Going by that figure, you picked out Steam version alone.

The actual numbers is probably 10x or more that.

[Xenesis.6389]

3 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

yeah i wish casuals would comp up but gw2 is a casual game and anything that goes against that will get push back. when theres too many squirrel builds then those ppl are just griefing your team and making the squad wipe so they can do some dps before they die. selfish ppl in a team setting are the worst, they waste everyones time when they could change a few things and still enjoy the game while actually benefitting their team.

lmao and you think that's all a one way street? there's squads and guilds that don't respond to defense calls, let t3 objectives fall, sits in spawn with 30 people and tells players who were on a map before them, to get off the map so they can get their members in because they can't wait their turn like everyone else, and I've seen commanders blasting the map on wipes when their own members are the first to fall in fights, but naw everyone elses fault, that's why some of these guilds can't recruit new players or can't improve.

There's no griefing, this is a game mode where roamers and small groups also exist on the same maps, accept that, if someone doesn't want to join you, maybe there's a problem with your group and not with them, there's already a bunch of filters that groups use to get the people they need so you don't get squirrels, and you can run tagless to keep the pugs off you. If you need numbers to take on groups bigger than you, well sorry but that's an anet problem, they pushed for that with boon spam combat. These are also the usually people who feel the need to hop servers every six months, after they've restocked on the good players, talk about being selfish, griefers, waste of every ones time, and destroyer of communities all in the name of fights for themselves.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

sits in spawn for 60+  minutes with 50 people and tells players who were on a map before them

FYP

Also, pulling false EWPs on BLs to get pugs off queued maps, typically on EBG.  I wonder why people don't respect that?

And let's not talk about one pushing because charging ahead before anyone else can react and thus blame everyone but them.

Plus most of the fights is just blindsliding orange swords or farming the same 10 defenders over and over again. It's very rare where you see the traditional fight guilds that break into keeps and will take on anyone. Most of these have left.

Now they just stroll in and wait in spawn asking people "where are the fights?" and then tell the scouts to get off once they've had no use for them.

Considering many can't even get their own fight, you have to wonder who the leechers really are.

The best is those that rage at people for not helping/joining when their tag is invisible.

I mean I don't really care if people don't want to defend, but they're not really fighting either. And let's not forget the irony of accusing people of being selfish in a team game mode when they're literally ignoring everyone else's priorities.

Edited May 1, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Lorendyl Azoradaelas.5203]

On 4/30/2023 at 12:30 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

You tell us, you brought up zerk rangers. You are also the one misquoting people? Not sure where you are going. Want to clarify?

I quoted by selecting the text then clicking on quote selection.  I guess it didn't get the correct name from embedded quotes.

I was talking about zerk rangers as an example of stacking unprotected glass.  There is no benefit to stacking where aoe spikes are going to be aimed.  They would be better served clouding separately from the boonball.

Btw, Mag is getting crushed currently.  They are going to T2 next week.

[Ya Ya Yeah.7381]

If I die, it's my fault. I don't blame other players builds for me dying. Sounds like a boon baby crying that everyone else isn't in the boon squad and running the builds to help support their weak builds. And you want others to play the game the way you say, and you are calling them selfish. LOL

Hello Pot  🙂

Now, if I'm in a group with a comm and I die, I still don't blame other players builds and call them selfish. You might want to make sure it isn't your builds that are the problem and not blame others. My experience with squirrel players is this. They mostly survive to see the zerglets die. 

If you want to comp up, go ahead and comp up, but don't start putting off your own deaths on random players and calling them selfish. It's a team. Remember? You think it is wise to insult your teammates?  I see why they don't squad up with you!

 

On 5/1/2023 at 8:56 AM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

yeah i wish casuals would comp up but gw2 is a casual game and anything that goes against that will get push back. when theres too many squirrel builds then those ppl are just griefing your team and making the squad wipe so they can do some dps before they die. selfish ppl in a team setting are the worst, they waste everyones time when they could change a few things and still enjoy the game while actually benefitting their team

 

[Riba.3271]

1 hour ago, Crazy.6029 said:

Now, if I'm in a group with a comm and I die, I still don't blame other players builds and call them selfish. You might want to make sure it isn't your builds that are the problem and not blame others. My experience with squirrel players is this. They mostly survive to see the zerglets die. 

 

If you want to comp up, go ahead and comp up, but don't start putting off your own deaths on random players and calling them selfish. It's a team. Remember? You think it is wise to insult your teammates?  I see why they don't squad up with you!

So what you're saying is that being part of team is about everyone playing however they want and not communicating possible improvements that might lead to better results.

It seems you confuse being competitive with not being nice. I guess everyone has some bad experiences but toxicity has nothing to do with trying to win or wanting a better challenge.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Riba.3271

[RisingDawn.5796]

On 4/30/2023 at 9:50 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I think the biggest problem with WvW is how many guilds have transformed into fight guilds, and how many commanders are running these guilds instead of helping their server flourish.

 

As a game mode, its fun to have large, epic battles in WvW, but its also not how the game is "won" and does very little for any players not involved in these fights. Anyone outside of your group basically gets nothing from it, and often has to watch their maps slowly turn into enemy colors while getting farmed at every turn.

 

True WvW guilds and commanders are those that know how to guide PUGs, who know how to split their forces up across multiple maps and address multiple goals and objectives at the same time and ensure the players on their server aren't suffering and quitting the game mode while they throw themselves over and over at a 50man enemy zerg for the thrill of it or spending several hours at a three-way fight in Stonemist.

We are where we are because the game mode has devolved into "what I want" instead of "what's good for everyone". This is made worse by most of the best tags playing on multiple servers now so they don't even have any loyalty and no one can trust them since they're clearly just there for the fights.

 

The truth is, squads have become mostly meaningless, and outside of the late night PPT k-train,  most of the work is done by PUGs these days anyway. If not for all those "useless" out-of-squad players, you'd never see your own objectives in your color ever again because fight guilds (which have become the majority at this point) simply don't care what color your stuff is.

 

At least from what I've experienced,  these fights guilds you complain about, open tags more often than not for everyone wanting to join an organised group, with no limit besides the squad limit and will help other people to find the right builds if they ask, looking to fight open field against similar numbers. The only thing they ask, is for people to join their discord channel to listen to the commander, that is leading.

This is especially since, PPT (points per tick) these days is meaningless, unless you want to climb up from certain tiers for a better match up or to do dailies, rank up etc

While you see PUGs, usually queuing EBG running around aimlessly,  many asking if there is a tag, when they don't even join their own Servers community discord.

I played when we didn't have these tools apart from community websites and Teamspeak. So honestly ,there's not much excuse for these kind of players to actually help themselves and their community, while being social in that way, not just by queuing maps and trying to cloud around.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[CafPow.1542]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:36 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

The better comms that I have run with over time would break their groups off into various tasks to balance needs versus numbers and hit multiple targets at the same time. The others that knew how to work with havocs and roamers would ask which havocs were on map and would have them strike in tandem at multiple goals or act as blocking forces to slow responses. But that was pre-linking so its been a while. After linking it seemed to get more chaotic and random. Not saying it's linking at a fault here, just more to paint a time frame on the remark.

i mean yeah. I guess when you hit Teamspeak / Discord together, you can get it done even if linked or not. If you join a zerg, join a Voicechannel aswell to optimize.

And splitting up can work out very well but sometimes, you shouldn't do that ofc. It depends on the Situation and i guess, a good commander knows what situation aquires what tactic.

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

i mean yeah. I guess when you hit Teamspeak / Discord together, you can get it done even if linked or not. If you join a zerg, join a Voicechannel aswell to optimize.

And splitting up can work out very well but sometimes, you shouldn't do that ofc. It depends on the Situation and i guess, a good commander knows what situation aquires what tactic.

🙂 This was all just in /m chat. Voice does lead to better/faster communication but wasn't needed. WvW/RvR has been around for quite a while and reading the map is not so complex since its not a fog of war aspect with OJs and conflicted objectives. Squads can both help and hinder depending out what is going on. If you have your entire map moving together you may end up worse off by losing more objectives to havocs and roamers since one mass group can't be everywhere, don't have enough in squad and you may end up losing to more numbers. Its a matter of balance. 

[Junkpile.7439]

Pointless join squad. Years ago it was good idea join squad because fights were blob guild vs pugs. Nowadays fights are 2 blob guilds + 2 smaller guilds + pugs vs pugs.

[Mihile.7609]

I would more often but I see way too many tags go up and close their party for their Guild and wait super late, or never open it for us, and or if they do, they demand us to be on Discord. This game mode isn't that hard that we need to be on Discord for one lol. It's just moving and fighting at the right times as a group. Honestly, I don't even read the chat. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and I got music going lol. I'm not tryna hear someone screech "gogogogogogo moomoomomoovemoove" for hours haha. Just open squad and let me heal ya friends lol.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Mihile.7609

[enkidu.5937]

9 hours ago, Mihile.7609 said:

This game mode isn't that hard that we need to be on Discord for one lol. It's just moving and fighting

hehe, I usually find com calls very distracting in fights

but when I'm roaming, flipping boring camps, I like to listen 🤡

 

 

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, enkidu.5937 said:

hehe, I usually find com calls very distracting in fights

but when I'm roaming, flipping boring camps, I like to listen

Maybe a little too intense?

With this game you can also get hurt quite a bit. You should add ''handle with care'' every time you go online.🤭

[solemn.9670]

14 hours ago, Mihile.7609 said:

I would more often but I see way too many tags go up and close their party for their Guild and wait super late, or never open it for us, and or if they do, they demand us to be on Discord. This game mode isn't that hard that we need to be on Discord for one lol. It's just moving and fighting at the right times as a group. Honestly, I don't even read the chat. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and I got music going lol. I'm not tryna hear someone screech "gogogogogogo moomoomomoovemoove" for hours haha. Just open squad and let me heal ya friends lol.

I wish I could like react this post 10 times over.

The amount of times I've just decided to not participate on a map in need of help because the comm/group INSISTS that I MUST be in voice comms is uncountable, over the years at least.

I know what I'm doing, have known what I'm doing for a long time, as mihile said I really do not need someone shouting in my ear to get my jobs done. I main staff weaver which, nerfed as it is, still consistently gets top DPS and makes a world of difference in generating downs vs boonblobs especially when you have a couple good ones in squad. And they just miss out on that because they think I need a crutch to play an easy game lol

Edit: while I'm here, let me echo this sentiment when it comes to closed squads in general. Your guild is too cool for the rest of us, ok enjoy negative 30k dps because I could've literally won fights for you and now I'll just solo roam somewhere else.

Edited May 28, 2023 by solemn.9670

[RisingDawn.5796]

16 hours ago, Mihile.7609 said:

I would more often but I see way too many tags go up and close their party for their Guild and wait super late, or never open it for us, and or if they do, they demand us to be on Discord. This game mode isn't that hard that we need to be on Discord for one lol. It's just moving and fighting at the right times as a group. Honestly, I don't even read the chat. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and I got music going lol. I'm not tryna hear someone screech "gogogogogogo moomoomomoovemoove" for hours haha. Just open squad and let me heal ya friends lol.

Comms call out precise movements, dodges and skills, which require coordination against organized groups, like PVE Raids which require some skill, coordination and knowledge, except it's a Large Scale PvP.  It can help new and less experienced players too you know, besides feeling like you are part of the group socially in an MMO. You do have a choice though, you can solo roam or join a chatmander; but even the latter isn't fun if you keep wiping.

Closed guild raids aren't about being too 'cool' either, it's Raids ;where a guild is trying to learn and improve with a smaller set limit of players, rather than a full fat 50 player squad, which can make it too easy to run over smaller groups, basically want you think every WvW fight ends up being, but it's not fun being wiped,  because you can't listen to calls by who is leading the squad..

Edited May 28, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[enkidu.5937]

5 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Maybe a little too intense?

With this game you can also get hurt quite a bit. You should add ''handle with care'' every time you go online.🤭

I checked, when listening to fight com while I'm roaming, I kill dollies and sentries 40% faster

just by the motivation flash 💪😁

"!!!!!momomomove!!!!!bombombombombombom!!!"

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, CrimsonOneThree.5682 said:

Comms call out precise movements, dodges and skills, which require coordination against organized groups. It can help new and less experienced players too you know, besides feeling like you are part of the group socially.

Sure, that works when they also doesn't stand in red poopoo all day long getting one pushed bombed to death, which most of them do anyways. 🤷‍♂️🍿

1 hour ago, CrimsonOneThree.5682 said:

Closed guild raids aren't about being too 'cool' either, it's like raids where a guild is trying to learn and improve with a limited quantity of players, rather than a full fat 50 playee squad.

That is until the too cool one guild finds another too cool guild two that has 50 in their squad, then too cool guild one needs to put up their tag and suddenly requires everyone on the map to log on the metas to match too cool guild two, or they run away to another map. 🤭🍿

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, enkidu.5937 said:

hehe, I usually find com calls very distracting in fights

but when I'm roaming, flipping boring camps, I like to listen 🤡

 

 

lol, that's a great example of old school style of comms that feels they need to keep talking else comms will fill with others providing details and they will lose peoples' focus. Nice morning laugh. 

[TheIceman.1039]

On 5/28/2023 at 1:57 AM, Mihile.7609 said:

I would more often but I see way too many tags go up and close their party for their Guild and wait super late, or never open it for us, and or if they do, they demand us to be on Discord. This game mode isn't that hard that we need to be on Discord for one lol. It's just moving and fighting at the right times as a group. Honestly, I don't even read the chat. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and I got music going lol. I'm not tryna hear someone screech "gogogogogogo moomoomomoovemoove" for hours haha. Just open squad and let me heal ya friends lol.

Don't forget the moments of rage. When things don't go well. In addition, some strange stand-up comedian show with hours of mumbling over competing commanders. But for those who are used to following scream manders, it is difficult to teach anything more..