Next Expansion, no Elite specs but?

[Lily.1935]

After reading the update I honestly have more questions than were really answered.

Quote

In the current design and implementation of elite specializations, we feel that with every new expansion there’s been increasingly limited “design space” left to add new and differentiated roles for each profession. In other words, most of the playstyles that we’d like to see supported for each profession already exist or should exist within their existing elite specialization options.

I'm not on board with this and the "Should exist" doesn't really tell us a whole lot. Should a Minion master exist on one of the elite specs for necromancer? SHOULD a Alacrity build exist for them somewhere? I'd say yes both of those should exist but does arena net agree with me? I'm not so sure. I don't agree that the design space is as limited as they say. But again that's super hard to speculate on. I'd like an Armorer for Engineer and I don't think any of the current elite specs really fit that.

So this statement doesn't really tell me too much, but lets see the next part.

Quote

With our next expansion, our goal is to further augment the combat options for each profession by adding new tools to their arsenal and by lifting constraints that will unlock an unprecedented number of playstyle customization options—while keeping the feel of Guild Wars 2 combat true to its origins. Theorycrafters are going to be very busy.

This one has me super curious. Like, what sort of augments? Are we talking about new Traits or weapons? Will Scourge for example get a trait which removes their shades and transforms them into Minions? Because that could be quite cool, although only having 3 would be a bit limiting. Are we going to see new Utility skills or even more than just a limit of 6 of a type? This is something I'd really like to know.

I personally could be happy with only getting new traits or something of similar value. Assuming we get 9-21 new traits per profession that could be quite interesting or a new weapon or two that are available to the core class. There's a lot they could add that would make me happy as a player. So although this statement still leaves me with a lot of questions, overall I'm cautiously optimistic.

Personally, as a Necromancer main coming over from GW1 and since I play a necromancer in every game I can I feel that necromancer is lacking most of the type of builds I enjoy and the fact we don't have a minimum of like 4 minion builds with very different play styles kinda bugs me. And the fact we don't have any weapons that summon minions bugs me as well. I'm sure other players with different professions as their mains have similar feelings for their profession. Like that we can't really effectively run mono element elementalist and a Cryomancer isn't a thing.

I don't know. I want to see more information. I'll continue to speculate. Hopefully they don't bury Elite specs entirely. But maybe their new tools will make me feel we don't need new ones, who knows.

[Dadnir.5038]

The usual words and sentences that only brought disappointment for years already.

That's basically all there is to comment on those quotes.

Edit: For the confused one(s), The devs like to sugar coat their word in such a way that it give a sugar rush (hype) their player base. And that's basically what we have here with even the fantastic superlatif: "Unprecedented"! But, hey! Maybe I shouldn't ruin your day and tell you that santa claus don't exist.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Infusion.7149]

My guess based on logic and part of the wiki players maintaining the balance notes for years:

• Necro gains alac on scourge in the future so it is actually used in average and higher end groups at the cost of DPS (think Sand Savant)
• Ranger can DPS on druid higher than the last observed 13K DPS with full boons making it more useful outside of alacrity output. This is likely low priority.
• Warrior should get some sort of improvement to sustained healing so it is not fully reliant on Soldiers Comfort and Vigorous Shouts. This is unlikely to be of highest priority at Arenanet since probably warrior is regarded only as a quickness DPS.

Current roles are already filled by guardian (quick/alac), revenant (quick/alac), thief (with stated deadeye quickness , specter alac), engi (quick/alac), ele (quick/alac), mesmer (quick/alac).
We are missing necro alacrity while warrior and ranger are unlikely to gain access to both boons due to core specs having access to a key boon. Arenanet only considers three things in PvE: quickness, alacrity, and healing. Minionmaster or armorer are not builds per say but theme.

I highly doubt that new traits will happen, it is far more likely we have trait reworks to underperforming traits and nerfs to traits that are used on nearly every build for a given spec.

[Lily.1935]

13 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

My guess based on logic and part of the wiki players maintaining the balance notes for years:

• Necro gains alac on scourge in the future so it is actually used in average and higher end groups at the cost of DPS (think Sand Savant)
• Ranger can DPS on druid higher than the last observed 13K DPS with full boons making it more useful outside of alacrity output. This is likely low priority.
• Warrior should get some sort of improvement to sustained healing so it is not fully reliant on Soldiers Comfort and Vigorous Shouts. This is unlikely to be of highest priority at Arenanet since probably warrior is regarded only as a quickness DPS.

Current roles are already filled by guardian (quick/alac), revenant (quick/alac), thief (with stated deadeye quickness , specter alac), engi (quick/alac), ele (quick/alac), mesmer (quick/alac).
We are missing necro alacrity while warrior and ranger are unlikely to gain access to both boons due to core specs having access to a key boon. Arenanet only considers three things in PvE: quickness, alacrity, and healing. Minionmaster or armorer are not builds per say but theme.

I highly doubt that new traits will happen, it is far more likely we have trait reworks to underperforming traits and nerfs to traits that are used on nearly every build for a given spec.

That's a really dire interpretation of this.

And Minion master is a category of builds. A Demon summoner is a theme... A Rat summoner is a theme. Both of those are themes and could both be minion masters... So I'm not sure what you're on about them being themes and not actual builds.. No, Minion Master is a category of builds, its not a theme.

Also You're looking at Updates coming in June, which is separate from the expansion. Which they did say they'll be adding new tools, not reworking old ones. Addition suggests something like new traits, Weapons, or utility skills. It could also just be power creep in the form of just extra abilities in combat like f6-8 abilities but that is an uncharitable interpretation and highly improbable. The "Add nothing" interpretation would suggest they're being dishonest.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Lily.1935

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Lily.1935 said:

This one has me super curious. Like, what sort of augments? Are we talking about new Traits or weapons? Will Scourge for example get a trait which removes their shades and transforms them into Minions? Because that could be quite cool, although only having 3 would be a bit limiting. Are we going to see new Utility skills or even more than just a limit of 6 of a type? This is something I'd really like to know.

   Probably just the spec weapons becaming available to core/all specs. Maybe spec skills becoming also available.

   Making new weapons, traits and skills for the expansion without releasing newer specs makes no sense, and since the game is now mostly in cruise mode/afk and they said 0 about new specs chances are that we won't get new specs at all.

  Think. for years ANet struggled to blend the developement of periodic content with the making of expansions. They finally achieved a way abandoning the living seasons and replacing raids with strikes based on the boss fights in the story mode...  But then seems that even doing mini expansions and seasonal content is too much work, despite they asign almost no work to PvP, WvW and instanced content.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

14 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Probably just the spec weapons becaming available to core/all specs.

That's my take as well. + more utilities skills.

Nothing to be excited about.

[Lily.1935]

Just now, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

That's my take as well. + more utilities skills.

Nothing to be excited about.

Then where are the "new tools" they're talking about? Because allowing access to elite spec weapons on core isn't adding new tools. Its increasing access to old tools which would be a lie on Arena net's part if that is what they meant.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Just now, Lily.1935 said:

Then where are the "new tools" they're talking about? Because allowing access to elite spec weapons on core isn't adding new tools. Its increasing access to old tools which would be a lie on Arena net's part if that is what they meant.

New utilites.

[Lily.1935]

4 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

New utilites.

I mean, it wouldn't be though. Giving access to elite spec utility skills to core isn't new utility. its old utility which can be used in a new way, which isn't new tools. It just isn't. And I kinda doubt that's the direction they are going in.

New utility skills would be nice, but I mentioned that. And To clarify I didn't say they'd add new traits, utility skills and weapons all at once. I honestly think it'd be more of a mix. New Weapon plus a few traits or new utility plus a few traits. But nothing too far beyond that unless they decide to revisit elite specs someday.

[Gibson.4036]

When the language is vague, it's best to keep expectations low.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

     I read it as giving the elite spec weapons to all elites and for them to fix old weapons that stink damage wise for them to rework to be good number wise. Example, P/P Thief again and other under used weapons in instanced content. Would give more variety to combat.

[Jungario.6485]

I really hope they unlock elite spec weapons for core or even other elites. And maybe mastery which allow us to unlock aditional slot for utility skill? Just two examples, but I hope they do something cool with professions if they don't want add more elites.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Jungario.6485

[Myror.7521]

I mean there are some ways to gain bladesworn and spell or also Berserkert he quickness or alac boon since there are some useless skills on them sooo we will see i gues ^^

Edited May 1, 2023 by Myror.7521

[mirage.8046]

I would hope elite spec weapons become detached from their elite specs. I know this is a gigantic pain for some classes more than others (revenants don't have a condition ranged weapon apart from shortbow and trident; necromancers don't have any cleave without greatsword).

[Eekasqueak.7850]

They might also just add new core weapons to classes. 

[Lily.1935]

The Number of people who think Arena net is lying in their post is astonishing. Clearly Arena net need to be clearer on what "New Tools" mean because my instinct says that it means new traits, utility skills and weapons/weapon skills. And if its "We made these elite specialization skills and weapons available to the core professions" that would be an unsustainable change long term since Arena net would run out of that after one expansion and what would these new tools be for the second expansion? or the third? or the fourth?

What some of y'all think is going to happen is unsustainable and ultimately a good way to really upset the player base.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

12 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

The Number of people who think Arena net is lying in their post is astonishing. Clearly Arena net need to be clearer on what "New Tools" mean because my instinct says that it means new traits, utility skills and weapons/weapon skills. And if its "We made these elite specialization skills and weapons available to the core professions" that would be an unsustainable change long term since Arena net would run out of that after one expansion and what would these new tools be for the second expansion? or the third? or the fourth?

What some of y'all think is going to happen is unsustainable and ultimately a good way to really upset the player base.

     Well, new weapons and traits usually meant new elites which is not the case now since they said no new elites. So I don't see them adding new traits at all because that is basically a new spec along with new weapons. That only really leaves fixing the old weapons to be good and traits along with the unlocked weapons. Because anything else really is just a rephrasing of new elites which they said they are not doing.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Doctor Hide.6345

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

After reading the update I honestly have more questions than were really answered.

I'm not on board with this and the "Should exist" doesn't really tell us a whole lot. Should a Minion master exist on one of the elite specs for necromancer? SHOULD a Alacrity build exist for them somewhere? I'd say yes both of those should exist but does arena net agree with me? I'm not so sure. I don't agree that the design space is as limited as they say. But again that's super hard to speculate on. I'd like an Armorer for Engineer and I don't think any of the current elite specs really fit that.

It's possible you're "left with more questions than were answered" because you simply want to disagree with what they said? They didn't somehow suggest that anything you'll want to do on an espec, you'll be able to do on the espec specifically designed for you to do it with. They said that "In other words, most of the playstyles that we’d like to see supported for each profession already exist or should exist within their existing elite specialization options.". It doesn't mean that a broken minion build should have its place in its own espec, it means that if you want to play minionmancer, you already can do it within any of the existing ones. And a little more broadly: same with dps and same with support.
As for "what with alac then?" -well, maybe they'll want to add every buff to every class or maybe they won't. When they talked about available playstyles, I doubt they somehow meant "having access to anything you want". It's probably more about not being entirely one-dimentional. Scourge already has both dps and support builds. So does Harbinger. So... if anything, maybe more likely something for Reaper, similarly how they're planning on adding a qdps role to de or dps role to druid? 🤷‍♂️ 

I don't even get why something like "but what if I wanted armorer engi" is being brought up here, since at no point they said you'll get any espec you want -if anything, they said quite the opposite.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Lily.1935]

45 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     Well, new weapons and traits usually meant new elites which is not the case now since they said no new elites. So I don't see them adding new traits at all because that is basically a new spec along with new weapons. That only really leaves fixing the old weapons to be good and traits along with the unlocked weapons. Because anything else really is just a rephrasing of new elites which they said they are not doing.

New traits were actually part of the original vision of Guild Wars 2. Back before the HoT was even a thing Arena net had talked about creating new traits for each attribute I think they were called back then so you could build into different things. Which to be fair to arena net, they did add new traits during that time. Necromancer didn't launch with Dhuumfire for example. And they had added a new heal to each profession. Signet of vampirism was added later as well. It wasn't until HoT that those things got locked into Elite specializations and it was a controversial decision at the time. Mind you, elite specs had a lot of positivity around them, but there were some problems the community had with the concept and locking new skills behind these elite specs was one of them.

Now, you say its rephrasing of an elite spec. Which it isn't and here's why. Elite specializations come with a new weapon, a completely new specialization with12 new traits, a new profession mechanic and 6 new utility. Any one of these parts does not equal a whole. New traits don't mean a new elite specialization. That's less than a 4th of an elite spec and the bulk of an elite specs work would be going into the new mechanics they bring. Overall even if they give us 12 new traits and a weapon that's less than half the work they'd do in a 2 to 3 year expansion cycle if they were to make a new Mechanic.

Personally, I'd Like to see new mechanics, but that's the last thing I think we'll be getting in the expansion. but new traits are the lowest hanging fruit possible and the absolute easiest to implement. Don't think that new traits means a new specialization, because it doesn't mean that. It means that Each specialization could potentially be getting a 4th trait line sometime down the road. Sure this changes how the UI needs to be displayed, but that's pretty minor for more options.

New weapons are similarly light on a work load. They have new animations and visuals, sure but that's at most 60 new skills across all professions and that's assuming every single profession got a two handed weapon. When you compare that to End of Dragons which added over 150 new skills with the utility, weapons, and mechanics its so much easier. And its likely the number of new skills would be closer to 30 if each profession got a new weapon.

So no, new skills and or utility doesn't come close to what a new elite spec brings but it is good enough to satisfy a lot of people with more frequent releases.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

10 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

New traits were actually part of the original vision of Guild Wars 2. Back before the HoT was even a thing Arena net had talked about creating new traits for each attribute I think they were called back then so you could build into different things. Which to be fair to arena net, they did add new traits during that time. Necromancer didn't launch with Dhuumfire for example. And they had added a new heal to each profession. Signet of vampirism was added later as well. It wasn't until HoT that those things got locked into Elite specializations and it was a controversial decision at the time. Mind you, elite specs had a lot of positivity around them, but there were some problems the community had with the concept and locking new skills behind these elite specs was one of them.

Now, you say its rephrasing of an elite spec. Which it isn't and here's why. Elite specializations come with a new weapon, a completely new specialization with12 new traits, a new profession mechanic and 6 new utility. Any one of these parts does not equal a whole. New traits don't mean a new elite specialization. That's less than a 4th of an elite spec and the bulk of an elite specs work would be going into the new mechanics they bring. Overall even if they give us 12 new traits and a weapon that's less than half the work they'd do in a 2 to 3 year expansion cycle if they were to make a new Mechanic.

Personally, I'd Like to see new mechanics, but that's the last thing I think we'll be getting in the expansion. but new traits are the lowest hanging fruit possible and the absolute easiest to implement. Don't think that new traits means a new specialization, because it doesn't mean that. It means that Each specialization could potentially be getting a 4th trait line sometime down the road. Sure this changes how the UI needs to be displayed, but that's pretty minor for more options.

New weapons are similarly light on a work load. They have new animations and visuals, sure but that's at most 60 new skills across all professions and that's assuming every single profession got a two handed weapon. When you compare that to End of Dragons which added over 150 new skills with the utility, weapons, and mechanics its so much easier. And its likely the number of new skills would be closer to 30 if each profession got a new weapon.

So no, new skills and or utility doesn't come close to what a new elite spec brings but it is good enough to satisfy a lot of people with more frequent releases.

Hmm. OK. I see what you are saying now, and it makes sense with what you presented. I don't personally see them adding a 4th trait line though to add. If people are already complaining about stuff being overpowered, imagine what a 4th line would bring to dps and boon numbers.

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

I don't personally see them adding a 4th trait line though to add. If people are already complaining about stuff being overpowered, imagine what a 4th line would bring to dps and boon numbers.

Yeah, I do hope when they talk about theorycrafters and lifting the constraints, it'll be about build versatility and not just some ridiculous power-creep by stacking of everything at the same time.

[zealex.9410]

What i imagine they could do when they say lift restrictions is allow elite spec weapons to be used freely for core builds and elite specs, think axe willybender or hammer druid.

[Lily.1935]

9 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

Hmm. OK. I see what you are saying now, and it makes sense with what you presented. I don't personally see them adding a 4th trait line though to add. If people are already complaining about stuff being overpowered, imagine what a 4th line would bring to dps and boon numbers.

Just to clarify, when I said 4th trait line, I meant within the specialization. Currently they have 3 trait lines in each specialization, so that's what I mean.

It is power creep in the sense it gives us more options, but its less power creep than what an elite spec would give us. And it wouldn't influence boons and DPS much if at all. They'd still have the same constraints. For example, say they added a GM trait in Blood magic that allowed your Shroud skill one to heal allies in its radius and changed its skill to target allies for core and harbinger with low but reliable healing scaling. Lets say Transfusion does stronger burst healing but this new trait is more reliable. It is power creep in a sense, but a trait like that doesn't buff something to being over powered.

I think that's the direction they'll be going. Side grade traits which change up options more than it just being a better option.

[Lily.1935]

11 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

What i imagine they could do when they say lift restrictions is allow elite spec weapons to be used freely for core builds and elite specs, think axe willybender or hammer druid.

You're like the 5th person to say this and the problem with it I've already explained would mean that they're lying in today's post. Not just that I also already explained that its unsustainable for future expansions.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

7 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

Just to clarify, when I said 4th trait line, I meant within the specialization. Currently they have 3 trait lines in each specialization, so that's what I mean.

It is power creep in the sense it gives us more options, but its less power creep than what an elite spec would give us. And it wouldn't influence boons and DPS much if at all. They'd still have the same constraints. For example, say they added a GM trait in Blood magic that allowed your Shroud skill one to heal allies in its radius and changed its skill to target allies for core and harbinger with low but reliable healing scaling. Lets say Transfusion does stronger burst healing but this new trait is more reliable. It is power creep in a sense, but a trait like that doesn't buff something to being over powered.

I think that's the direction they'll be going. Side grade traits which change up options more than it just being a better option.

     That makes much more sense. My brain went to an immediate 4th new line, so on Engi you would have Explosives, Firearms, Mechanists, and let's just say inventions. But if it is within the actual Explosives specialization with a 4th line, than yeah it would be more possible to balance.