CC kills this game

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

19 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

A lot of trash mobs have 1 sec animation for their CC abilities. Deciphering that animation when 5 of them are on the screen is no easy task. The only one I can name right now are the Leopard/raven/wolf Fallen shamans in Bojar march, but there a lot of these kind of mobs. In fairness in Isolation they are no danger at all, but in some location/Events they just pile up on you. For example North/east Bojarch march has a Patrol event. If the Patrol, who rngs out of a mob pool, spawns with a lot of shamans on top of shamans who are already on the map, CC just flys at you. If the patrol spawns instead with mostly kodans it does literally nothing. If you roam maps of the beaten trail, you get such encounter every now and then.

I asked for examples on enemies that have near instant CC, not one that takes 4 business days to hit. 1 second is perfectly enough time for you to go "maybe I shouldn't be hit by that" and step or dodge away. 

As I said, other than the Forged pull(the doggo thing with the hook) or the Awakened Canid's knockdown you have plenty of time to just not get hit.

[Astralporing.1957]

43 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I asked for examples on enemies that have near instant CC, not one that takes 4 business days to hit. 1 second is perfectly enough time for you to go "maybe I shouldn't be hit by that" and step or dodge away. 

As I said, other than the Forged pull(the doggo thing with the hook) or the Awakened Canid's knockdown you have plenty of time to just not get hit.

We're not talking about one on one situations. We're talking about zerg vs trash mob crowd. In such a situation good luck noticing that one of the many mobs around is activating a specific skill, and is aiming it at you. And btw, 1 second is understatement. Lot of mobs have ccs that are near instant, because with trash mobs Anet often does not bother with paying attention to whether they have "sufficient" visual cues. And you don't have to go far to look for those, because it starts relatively early (for example kraits and orrian risen)

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

We're not talking about one on one situations. We're talking about zerg vs trash mob crowd. In such a situation good luck noticing that one of the many mobs around is activating a specific skill, and is aiming it at you. And btw, 1 second is understatement. Lot of mobs have ccs that are near instant, because with trash mobs Anet often does not bother with paying attention to whether they have "sufficient" visual cues. And you don't have to go far to look for those, because it starts relatively early (for example kraits and orrian risen)

Zerg vs trash mob crowd, which is... a situation where often you're just splattered by stability from random sources and the players kill the mobs anyways? Are you saying it should be even easier for the zergs to fight trash mobs (since as you just said, that's the situations you have in mind here)? Can't say I agree with that at all. Zergs of players already mow through trash mob crowds like it's nothing.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Zerg vs trash mob crowd, which is... a situation where often you're just splattered by stability from random sources and the players kill the mobs anyways? Are you saying it should be even easier for the zergs to fight trash mobs (since as you just said, that's the situations you have in mind here)? Can't say I agree with that at all. Zergs of players already mow through trash mob crowds like it's nothing.

Yep, yep, success is all that matters, never the means. To you headbutting into a wall would be of no concern if with enough hits from enough people the wall would cave in. Meanwhile someone's head is still hurting.

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yep, yep, success is all that matters, never the means.

Who said the means don't matter? Players have group utility, if someone's "soloing" stuff and uses "grant 5 players stability", that skill has lower power than when they use it within the group or even with a single other person. There's no need to nerf mobs because some players refuse to use deliberately powerful effects to counter the skills and effects ai is using.

12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

To you headbutting into a wall would be of no concern if with enough hits from enough people the wall would cave in. Meanwhile someone's head is still hurting.

This has nothing to do with what is being said here nor is this remotely true.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

We're not talking about one on one situations. We're talking about zerg vs trash mob crowd. In such a situation good luck noticing that one of the many mobs around is activating a specific skill, and is aiming it at you.

What happens in a zerg?
* You're pumped full of boons
* If you go down, generally, people will rez you instantly if you're with the group.
* If you go full dead, people will still waste the 40 seconds to rez your butt.
* There's so much healing that it's almost impossible to die in a zerg on core maps.

Yeah, no, I'm inclined to believe that the random aegis & other boons gifted to you by the [insert boon spec here] is going to block & mitigate most of the crowd, and the random heals you get are going to keep you alive through it.

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And btw, 1 second is understatement. Lot of mobs have ccs that are near instant, because with trash mobs Anet often does not bother with paying attention to whether they have "sufficient" visual cues. And you don't have to go far to look for those, because it starts relatively early (for example kraits and orrian risen)

Almost all NPCs that use CC either have a long telegraph or use a CC skill that's a copy/paste of a class skill.  In the case of the telegraph, the CC lasts a while because that's your punishment for getting hit by it.  In the case of the class skill, they tend to not last that long.  Maybe a second at most.

[Caitmonster.9036]

There's this super OP secret boon found in GW2 that you can use to mitigate being CC'd... It's called Stability. There's also these other cool abilities called Stun Breaks that get you out of CC instantly when you pop them. When I'm wandering around in the openworld I tend to bring at least one of these and unless I've overestimated my ability to nuke them down quickly it serves me well. I'd suggest you look at your class and find your skills/traits that provide the same.

If you don't want to alter your build or loadout to bring either of those to compensate for mobs that can CC you, then I'm afraid to say that's a you problem. :V

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

9 minutes ago, Caitmonster.9036 said:

There's this super OP secret boon found in GW2 that you can use to mitigate being CC'd... It's called Stability. There's also these other cool abilities called Stun Breaks that get you out of CC instantly when you pop them. When I'm wandering around in the openworld I tend to bring at least one of these and unless I've overestimated my ability to nuke them down quickly it serves me well. I'd suggest you look at your class and find your skills/traits that provide the same.

If you don't want to alter your build or loadout to bring either of those to compensate for mobs that can CC you, then I'm afraid to say that's a you problem. :V

Anet should force people to sit through some little tutorial about CC, stunbreaks, dodging and whatnot before allowing you outside of the starter zone, like they did with CC and combo in EoD.. maybe even throw on a little questionnaire you must pass, so that we'd get less complaints about the game not explaining it after just blindly going through it.
 

[SinisterSeven.2781]

so did we use a lvl 80 boost and it's not going very well?

[Leger.3724]

When Arena Net looks at Guild Wars 3 they need to take this advice to heart. Guild Wars 2 succeeds in its pve and it succeeds despite a poorly constructed combat system.

You can see the failure in WvW and sPvP and the quantity of players who participate in that. 

The combat in pve is manageable. But even Arena Net subconsciously recognizes their GW2 combat system is bad... which is why bosses become invulnerable usually at 75%, 50% and 25% because the fights would be way too easy. That or the fight is extremely oppressive like the Claw of Jormag where they put a special freezing condition on you as you approach the boss' ice wall.

I think there were some key fumbles moving from Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars 2 in no particular order.

1. Removing the monk class and turning to boons and players self-healing.

2. Increasing the size of AOE and AOE conditions.

3. The addition of an unprecedented level of stealth and teleportation.

4. The addition of an unprecedented amount of crowd control/knock down/knockback.

5. Going from a skill bar of 8 to 20+. I'm on my Guardian/Firebrand right now for example. 10 weapon skills. 3 tomes with 5 skills each for another 15. That's 25. And then I have my heal skill, 3 utility skills and an ultimate. That is 30 fairly unique skills without getting into how for example the third auto attack on an axe procs burning so you might want to make sure you swing 3 times with your axe.

The above leads to pvp which is extremely uninviting. It leads to raids content being relatively uninviting too. 

Guild Wars 2 did a lot right but the combat system is not fun which is why almost all of the playerbase is casual. They don't want raids, they don't want pvp. They just want casual open world boss content and cosmetics. There is nothing wrong with that but if the game had a better combat system it could attract casual players and way more hardcore or serious players too.

Guild Wars 2 figured out how to help communities develop organically with open world bossing, the event system. This isn't an "I hate Guild Wars 2" post. But this is a "what can we improve on for next time to bring back people who have left" and one of the top priorities should be a streamlined combat system that is much simpler. 

When I think back to the pvp games I've played - Runescape, GunZ, Guild Wars 1, League of Legends, DOTA 2, Counterstrike, Call of Duty... skill/ability bar options were always very simple and this allowed for player skill to shine. The goal was not to get a rotation out. It was to make decisions and respond to the decisions of others as individual players. Guild Wars 2 is like jack of all trades, master of none only worse because most people don't even qualify as a jack of all trades with their preferred class. I mean hell - even RTS games like Age of Empires and Starcraft were simpler. That's what Guild Wars 2 feels like. An overly complex RTS where you have a set build pattern memorized and you follow it almost exclusively come hell or high water.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Leger.3724

[Nephalem.8921]

On 5/29/2023 at 5:56 AM, Ashlin.3708 said:

Suu won. The game isnt just a DPS race already? the stun bar isnt bad, but I do think the scaling on it needs work, as i said, going back onto more inactive maps, some of the fights the bar is just so hard to break even with EMP you cant break it. I play herald and have like 6 moves that break the bar, add EMP for 7, and even with all that there are fights that there are 2-3 of us and we cant break that bar, even with EMPS.

But the complaint is more towards PvE enemies using CC against you. Its fine if they want it as a mechanic so you cant just face roll, I get it. Thats not bad.
But as I said before there are some fights Specially in POF now that its more dead, that you spend the whole fight unable to fight back because you are getting cc'd so much.

Emp does 300 breakbar damage. It is really not that great like everyone claims. Multiple specs can do 2k+ with their own skills or you could get:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Termite_Shovel

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Metal_Rod

Unscaled breakbars have a standard size of 1500. But first red flag was you playing tank.... in this game in open world...

You play herald. Look closely at what https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspiring_Reinforcement does. seriously read your own skills. Also https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forced_Engagement does 500 defiant bar dmg over 4sec. Staff 5 does tons too.

 

[Noah Salazar.5430]

you can call hfb, or hqs to spam stability on you or aoe stun breaks, thers nothink that friendship can't defeat

in group/squad content you usualy have 2 supports and 3dps per party, it's posible to organize thinks like in soo-won meta as commander/officer, if your not liking mixed squad

Edited June 5, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Avatar.3568]

There is a Thing called stunbreak, every class has IT and you can Slot IT into your utility skills

[Astralporing.1957]

11 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Emp does 300 breakbar damage. It is really not that great like everyone claims. Multiple specs can do 2k+ with their own skills or you could get:

Actually, it does 300 instant breakbar damage, and 8 seconds of slow (which is additional 400 breakbar damage). At instant cast, 900 range, 1000 radius area effect. On a 12sec cooldown. As an additional skill you can use on top of your normal cc abilities, even on builds that usually have next to none. So, yeah, it is that great. It's real strength however is that it significantly increases the average cc use all over the whole zerg, because it gives a very good, easily useable cc skill to everyone. Instead of requiring people to build for it (which most people won't).

Edited June 5, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

I think Season 2 content has the worst of it. Episode 6 has a boss that just ignores CC even though it has a break bar. Episode 1 final boss for some reason wasn't spawning aspects fast enough so you had to deal vine knocking and crippling.

Going through Season 3 with friends, some mechanics have a chance to just break in instances. Imagine trying to do the bloodstone tether mechanic of hitting the veteran or boss with the line, only the special action breaks the tether instead of giving you free movement. Then having mobs that spam knock and spawn adds endlessly adds onto it

[SnackParty.3178]

No CC, would make the game boring. It could get a little bit tone down, in some situations. Utility skills, do a lot, to counter and survive.

[Luthan.5236]

Imo it is mostly fine. Like the new version better than the very old system at the release back then in 2012/13. (Afaik you had to remove a lot of stacks of a buff to stun an enemy champ.) Now in core maps it is easily possible to 1-shot (or almost 1-shot) the CC bar with some of the better abilities. (Love rifle 4 of my engineer that even got buffed by removing the self-knockback.)

For big fightes the scaling: Yeah there it is annoying when you have tons of people and only some of them using CC. Then again: Nowadays most stuff can be done by just using raw dps and even ignoring the bar. Or the waystation is used and the CC skill from there.

For PvP-like environments (PvP and WvW) ... it can be annoying. Then again: WvW you can just zerg and it does not really matter that much (zerg can have guys bringing tons of stability as well) ... and PvP has a small scale environment with the 5 vs. 5. It is all about the team composition there. And they tried to make adjustments by removing damage from CC skills in PvP that used to have the CC effect + also a lot of damage combined into one skill.

For PvE mobs that spam a lot of CC at you: I do not think there are a lot that are not easy to dodge or kite. And every class has ranged options for attacking.

[Nephalem.8921]

11 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Actually, it does 300 instant breakbar damage, and 8 seconds of slow (which is additional 400 breakbar damage). At instant cast, 900 range, 1000 radius area effect. On a 12sec cooldown. As an additional skill you can use on top of your normal cc abilities, even on builds that usually have next to none. So, yeah, it is that great. It's real strength however is that it significantly increases the average cc use all over the whole zerg, because it gives a very good, easily useable cc skill to everyone. Instead of requiring people to build for it (which most people won't).

It is far from instant. The casttime is fairly long even under quickness. Slow does not stack in intensity so while it will do 700 over 8sec for one player it will do only 300 for the rest.

Only very few meta builds have 0cc. On some specs it is better to use your normal cc skills because they are just way faster. The problem lies in too many players not reading their skill descriptions. Even in raids you encounter these 0cc folks. Especially low cc hmechs are annoying because they could do tons but chose to play triple signet.

It's real strength is that its the same button for cc on every class and independent from weapon. No reason to read skills anymore.

[vicky.9751]

No, cc wins the game lol.

try playing molten fractal with some people who don't stun the bosses, 😕

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, vicky.9751 said:

No, cc wins the game lol.

try playing molten fractal with some people who don't stun the bosses, 😕

So, like it was originally, before the defiance rework?

[MonsterTeddy.6135]

Most recent place where I can think of this situation happening is during Kaineng meta or Gyala Delves.

For Kaineng, the north lab can get pretty frustrating when getting chain pulled by several jade mechs who suddenly decide to use their skills in tandem. With all the visual clutter and aoes showing up, it's hard to decide what to dodge and what to tank. Same with the Aspenwood meta really.

For Gyala, the Yao escort comes to mind where 6-8 jade mechs spawn together. You'd get pulled in several different directions if you get caught.

Seems to be a scaling issue though. It really isn't much of a problem with enough players, but the way that it hits harder when there's less players around really deters ppl from returning to older content. Even recent content like Aspenwood meta struggles to get enough people to clear it. Barely anyone shows up even if you're tagged up, LFG'd and spamming on map. PoF especially suffers from this.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 6/6/2023 at 2:09 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

So, like it was originally, before the defiance rework?

Before the rework you stunned with icebow5 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Before the rework you stunned with icebow5 

Nah, before the rework you depleted the defiance stacks and then someone used a random cc to reset them before you managed to apply something sensible anyway, so most players didn't even bother.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:05 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nah, before the rework you depleted the defiance stacks and then someone used a random cc to reset them before you managed to apply something sensible anyway, so most players didn't even bother.

Well yes, in instances or solo that's how it was done.  In open world, though, it was always a ranger with longbow 5 to knock the champion 4 miles backwards before the icebow attack could go off.

[Linken.6345]

51 minutes ago, Epsilon Indi.2031 said:

Well yes, in instances or solo that's how it was done.  In open world, though, it was always a ranger with longbow 5 to knock the champion 4 miles backwards before the icebow attack could go off.

longbow 5 is the big aoe from above so no they never did that.

And even then it might have been someone leveling up pushing mobs back or a mesmer with greatsword but the poor rangers always got the blame even if they ran gs+dual axes.