June 27 Balance Update Preview

[loregnum.3619]

3 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I have considered it yes, but you're not being entirely honest here. Mecha loses toolbelt skills for jade mech + signets, and jade mech alone more than makes up for lack of toolbelt skills sorry. It's essentially another party member with how strong it is, and I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I think it's a fair trade off to lose tool belt skills in favor of a near unstoppable AI pet that can solo any veteran mob and below, and even solo some open world champ mobs by itself, or with very very little help from the mechanist itself.

 

Mecha straight up allows engi to coast through soloing nearly all open world champs, including HoT hero point champs with their Jade Mech both taking the brunt of aggro and damage, while still dishing out plenty of dps on it's own AND mecha is AFAIK the easiest alac class in the game by miles atm. I could be wrong on this last bit but I don't think so. Off the top of my head I can't think of another class that dumps out Alac with such ease.

Again though, there are other design avenues IMO besides overloading signets to the point that players feel forced into taking them because they offer so much.

This is outright gaslighting. You can't solo all these champs you speak of by basically just sitting there and letting the jade mech do its thing. If you wish to double down on this lie then please, post videos of you doing this against all these champs you speak of and I mean REAL videos, not tests on a stationary golem that doesn't hit back and saying "see, look at that dps figure!" The way people constantly post golem videos to try and back up their points as though the golem is in ANY WAY representative of the actual game is so maddening at this forum.

Same with acting like the jade mech does so much damage like it is a secondary player which is not the case. It does decent damage if you have it all booned up in a group setting but solo it isn't anything amazing. Just go to your precious golem and only have the golem attack without a bunch of group based conditions on the golem and boons applied and see for yourself.

You seem to have some massive hate for the mechanist spec to where you are absolutely lying about it. I don't main mech but I do have one and I mainly like it (prefer scrapper) and I just have to roll my eyes at people like you that constantly go on and on about it as though it is some super spec when it is not.

[bruakumfd.4817]

I watched the stream after the fact so, I wasn't too worried at first. My only issue was one of the guys forgettng about Mesmers and trying to spin it as a joke. However, I'm rethinking that part of my stance after some of these pages. (I would have to loved to read all of them.) It's mainly just the lack of boon corruption. 

No more on my axe? Fine. I just expect it to rip and tear until I can switch back to my greatsword. Curse traits, though? No, that completely flies in the face of the description of the traitline. Oh, and don't get me started on the Scourge changes!

I was happy to hear that they are getting Alacrity. If I must run a Strike Mission or Fractal , I have to use the LFG group. Lo and behold, that boon is almost always in demand.

That was until they started explaining the trade-offs. The only one I remembered was the Sand Shades. 20 to 8? It'd be one thing, if it was a utility skill. A profession mechanic, though? I wouldn't be surprised if the endgame was to make Reaper the only viable elite spec, even though Condi Reapers would hurt by this.

Then again, I also wouldn't surprised if they secretly hired a fan who's more than happy to die on the hill of having never played one. That's even after being in muliple SMs with 3-4 reapers.

 

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:53 PM, loregnum.3619 said:

This is outright gaslighting. You can't solo all these champs you speak of by basically just sitting there and letting the jade mech do its thing. If you wish to double down on this lie then please, post videos of you doing this against all these champs you speak of and I mean REAL videos, not tests on a stationary golem that doesn't hit back and saying "see, look at that dps figure!" The way people constantly post golem videos to try and back up their points as though the golem is in ANY WAY representative of the actual game is so maddening at this forum.

Same with acting like the jade mech does so much damage like it is a secondary player which is not the case. It does decent damage if you have it all booned up in a group setting but solo it isn't anything amazing. Just go to your precious golem and only have the golem attack without a bunch of group based conditions on the golem and boons applied and see for yourself.

You seem to have some massive hate for the mechanist spec to where you are absolutely lying about it. I don't main mech but I do have one and I mainly like it (prefer scrapper) and I just have to roll my eyes at people like you that constantly go on and on about it as though it is some super spec when it is not.

@Bookah pls.9352

 😘

 

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/17/2023 at 4:50 PM, Batalix.2873 said:

Imo professions should have the option to balance quickness/alacrity in ways that make sense to them, and shouldn't be held to this espec-specific limitation.

Chronomancer is already bucking this trend with the option to trait into alacrity or quickness, on top of an alac well with Well of Action. It makes flavorful sense for the time mage espec, and frees up design space in Mirage and Virtuoso for other things. The only way it could be even more perfect would be if Well of Action also provided a smidge of Quickness. That way (1) Chrono could equally fill out phantasm gaps on both Alacrity and Quickness builds, (2) Well of Action would have condensed support slot utility into a single well that makes flavorful sense, and (3) Chrono's Well of Action providing a little bit of both Alac/Quickness would be a useful gap-filler for subgroup alac/quickness without being overpowered, kind of like the rez Scourge of boons.

So if Chronomancer is already breaking the rule, I think other professions deserve rethinking this particular paradigm shift. I already believe that Warrior's proposals are terrible for maintaining uptime and make little flavorful sense--banners would actually work better in this new paradigm if they put Alacrity on Banner of Defense and a parallel alac trait in Discipline. That way banners have a niche, and Warriors can modularly swap in alacrity/quickness--and won't be obligated to be bannerslaves now that more than two classes can provide either boon. The last piece of the puzzle would be to bring back a mini-game support to banners and make them less "well-like", so I would propose bringing back kits and allowing the Warrior to throw banners like spears.

The other profession on which alac/quickness really don't make sense to me is Thief. Thief is roguish, selfish, deceptive. Deadeye especially is a very selfish and malicious espec. And frankly alac Specter never made much sense to me either (or Specter as a whole, but that goes beyond this topic). On top of that the particular implementation just seems especially arbitrary, where all three thief specs have access to shadow magic and steals, yet only one espec can use them for boon support. Contrast with say Necro where only Scourge has sand barriers and only Harbinger has elixirs. Removing these proposals and putting alac/quickness on universal core Thief traits makes more sense for Thief I think. I would probably put them into Trickery since that is already a fairly niche traitline.

All the other especs mostly make sense to me, and I think it would be fairly balanced to have one of each weight class offer a different modular approach to alac/quickness where appropriate. Warrior, Thief, and Mesmer just make the most sense as the most selfish, DPS-forward identities.

But point being, I agree that Deadeye providing Quickness just...really stretches the job fantasy of a malicious, long-range assassin. Really poorly thought out concept overall. The devs are trying to whittle away all of the contours of specs so they will all fit neatly into round holes and I think that is precisely the opposite of what they should be doing.

I agree with this! On the Mesmer section a lot of us back when Mirage was given Alac were beyond annoyed because we felt that belonged to Chrono. Keep in mind history though! When Mirage first got staff ambush alac, it was given by Solar. Then the discord leaks came out and the quote I will never forget: "I buffed staff because I hated playing axe"

It was a mistake to ever give Alac to Mirage, and look at everything that one bad decision has caused for the class.

Every class is suffering now because of Alac/Quickness, but it has been Mesmers suffering the longest because historically speaking Chrono was the first Alac IIRC, although I forget which class was the first quickness. The ripples of bad design decisions have such strong effects, we are all seeing the results now with this patch.

I don't know exactly how to fix what I see as a huge problem, but I definitely know it is a huge problem, and it will only bring the game down even more if something isn't done about it.

[Cait Sith.4650]

On 6/8/2023 at 10:12 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

As always, the goal of previewing these changes is to gather your feedback before the live release. We'll be following the conversation and making further adjustments as needed.

 

On 6/9/2023 at 11:43 PM, Chazara.9075 said:

P.S. - Most of these changes are questionable and is in my honest opinion the second worst balance patch in a long time *cough cough* June 28th 2022 *cough cough* Even if the playerbase expected incoming nerfs
P.P.S - So uh, where is the Alacrity on Specter now if its not on the Wells?
P.P.P.S - If your team is "Listening to player feedback to make the game feel better" This patch doesn't show that intent and it feels that Grouch made a very empty promise

 

@Josh Davis.7865 @Cal Cohen.2358 @Rubi Bayer.8493

If the stance about listening to feedback is genuine, then the massive backlash in this topic and a poll with a current 82,59% disapproval of the balance patch preview should suffice.

Enough has been said already, the changes (total annihilation of the specialization) to Scourge and Necromancer's boon conversion make no sense. Alongside dozens of other equally egregious and pointless changes.
All we'll get from this balance patch is long months of course correction afterwards, which can instead be spent actually working on aspects of balance that need attention, like new animations for skills, fixes to bugged animations, underperforming weapons, etc.
Stop the homogenization and blatant bias, nurture and promote class identity.

If this goes forward, you'll have released two of the three worst patches in Guild Wars 2's history, in the space of 12 months. In case that happens, it won't bode well for you.

Still, I have prepared some memes ahead of time. Feel free to use them.
 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Cait Sith.4650

[Lord Voldemodem.4598]

meanwhile buggy weapons that require stowing to cancel the after cast to perform properly the benchmark rotations, which they're using to balance the game by the way, is still being ignored like it's an actual thing in the game that players are required to do. the hell? How does stowing your weapon in the middle of combat make sense?

[zeyeti.8347]

3 hours ago, Cait Sith.4650 said:

 

 

@Josh Davis.7865 @Cal Cohen.2358 @Rubi Bayer.8493

If the stance about listening to feedback is genuine, then the massive backlash in this topic and a poll with a current 82,59% disapproval of the balance patch preview should suffice.

Enough has been said already, the changes (total annihilation of the specialization) to Scourge and Necromancer's boon conversion make no sense. Alongside dozens of other equally egregious and pointless changes.
All we'll get from this balance patch is long months of course correction afterwards, which can instead be spent actually working on aspects of balance that need attention, like new animations for skills, fixes to bugged animations, underperforming weapons, etc.
Stop the homogenization and blatant bias, nurture and promote class identity.

If this goes forward, you'll have released two of the three worst patches in Guild Wars 2's history, in the space of 12 months. In case that happens, it won't bode well for you.

Still, I have prepared some memes ahead of time. Feel free to use them.
 

I hope like 100% of all the patch anet make , it will be bugged as usuall , the ele bug with sunspot was pretty funny .

I would love to see a bug on scourge where instead of having sand shades on a 8 secs duration the skill have no cd and last forever , a scourge with 1200 expertise and concentration for free , and -200% damage taken , and the possibilty to fear off the whole arena , plus a barrier spam , would be pretty funny !

I agree with you that a lot of ppl are complaining here (i too ) some changes show again that a big part of the devs don't have any clue how some classes works and are mostly leaded by own preferences , but sometimes the devs are reading , i personnaly think that they are not gonna let the sand shade change happen , this change is so stupid , they have to figure out how to give alacrity to scourge without giving him the 10 man alacrity , for me the answer is simple : Sand Savant should be the alacrity source , you trade off Demonic Lore in term off dps vs boon (maybe a too big deeps loss ?), or put sand savant in major master trait . Or esle make alacrity come from your character only , and not from sand shades .

Also why aren't some changes listed into the patchnote ? Septic Corruption nerf for harbringer and Manifest Sand Shade ? thats a real question  , if anybody can answer i would really be thankfull ? Are the devs making up their mind ?

Love the meme btw.

[kidbuu.4071]

@Josh Davis.7865 @Cal Cohen.2358 @Rubi Bayer.8493

Not sure if you're still looking at making any additional changes to the upcoming patch or taking additional feedback, but here goes.... 

Since we're moving alacrity, why not add  Aegis to  Traversing Dusk - Heal allies in the area around you when you shadowstep. Gain shadow force for each ally in the radius. Wells grant Ageis (.5s) on their initial impact.

1. This would help round out the support specialization that you're looking from Specter in competitive mode and PVE.

2. With a short duration it turns into a on "demand mode" play style which I think 🤔 that's what you're looking for as a development team.

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by kidbuu.4071

[kidbuu.4071]

58 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Also why aren't some changes listed into the patchnote ?

To answer your question. They said on their live stream that the live stream was the most up-to-date and that some of the information that's on the live stream would not be listed on the passion notes.....

[Juan.6124]

16 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

ANet, hire me. 

https://boards.greenhouse.io/arenanet/jobs/4972492

[Ashen.2907]

17 hours ago, Bookah pls.9352 said:

. I gave you the reason shift signet is stronger than blink,

No you did not. You expressed an opinion on the matter (one ncontradicted by the devs). We have been told that the Mech itself (and its F skills) was the tradeoff for the lack of toolbelt skills. 

[Juan.6124]

On 6/16/2023 at 4:09 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

IScourge is the absolute HERO of successful boneskinner strikes. When that boss flings his poo bombs and half the raid drops, it's the scourge who teleports everyone that's downed and then rezzes them. I CANNOT EXPRESS ENOUGH HOW IMPACTFUL THAT IS.

I have literally formed new friendships with necro players because of situations like that. They become HEROES, and I can only imagine how awesome they must feel when they are able to save the day like that.

Knowing that when you have a support necro in your party you're "safe" when downed, it's so satisfying, AND I DON'T EVEN PLAY NECRO. It is absolutely insane to me that Anet is even considering removing such a unique and fun playstyle, all for the sake of spreadsheet alac.

 

 

Anet nerfs it because it's one of the most broken builds in all of gaming and it will still be extremely strong, you just have to time f4 better.

Instead of relying on a rezz bot you could also not go down in the first place by moving away from aoes before they go off. Boneskinner raises one arm when he casts the claws.

Edited June 18, 2023 by DirtyDan.4759

[Juan.6124]

On 6/16/2023 at 6:28 AM, nucklepuckk.1805 said:

I'm still salty about alacrity on Celestial Avatar. Imagine if Firebrands had to put the majority of their healing on cooldown in order to maintain quickness. You want quickness? Get locked out of Bow of Truth and Tome 2 Nerd! 

I'm so salty.

If your playstyle is affected by this it means you never gave might on druid. Time to wake up.

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:54 AM, DirtyDan.4759 said:

Anet nerfs it because it's one of the most broken builds in all of gaming and it will still be extremely strong, you just have to time f4 better.

Instead of relying on a rezz bot you could also not go down in the first place by moving away from aoes before they go off. Boneskinner raises one arm when he casts the claws.

That logic is low grade and quickly falls apart the more you expand on it. Having lag? You can simply get better internet.

Your class isn't up to par? You can simply play another class.

Of course with perfect play no rezzing or healing is ever needed, but then again perfect play is not the standard, it is the exception. The fact of the matter is, people do go down, and GW2 was specifically designed to have a fulfilling downed interaction. You get xp when you rez people for instance, besides just feeling good about yourself.

Not only that but there's so many variables to every player, some are handicapped, some are old and have slow reflexes, some can't process the sheer amount of visual spam that is on screen anytime 5+ players get together, and some, no matter how perfect they play, simply make mistakes. It's not broken and nobody said anything about relying on it, it's called class fantasy and necro support fufills it's class fantasy near perfectly now. Plenty of evidence to suggest scourge was fine as is.

 

On 6/18/2023 at 9:16 AM, misterman.1530 said:

Sorry. It was someone else. Got confused with all the videos and posts on similar topics. My mistake.

Don't be sorry, they're intentionally being dishonest and confusing, that's the reason they used the same insult over and over and over.

The only reason I even brought up shift signet was as a clear case example of an overloaded skill, alongside willbender trait. I then said ALL EOD specs are overloaded and overbloated, so I wasn't singling out mecha by any means.

But they hyper focused on shift signet, then gaslighted and projected and then ultimately when faced with video evidence blocked me because they couldn't handle being proven wrong on their opinion.

Like Ashen said, signets aren't the trade off for toolbelt skills, even the wiki for mecha clearly states:

Quote

"Mech Command skills replace tool belt abilities and are determined by the currently selected mechanist's traits."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mechanist

Edit: They also think playing alac mirage is the same as playing alac mecha, as in since they both can do the same things, they're the same class. But anyone with eyes can clearly see alac mirage has to put in 90% more effort to reach similar results. There is no way I can just auto attack and stand there on alac mirage and accomplish the same things as alac mecha.

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Sjentra.3409]

I was really hoping for a 2 way communication; but it seems like it's only 1 way; and a hope and prayer on the players end to see if they even bothered to read their own forums.

For scourge they should also look at Sand Swell; its basically useless as is (no one is going to use it for barrier) and the short teleport/portal can be blocked by a pebble. Also I'm still now sure how Scourge was compensated for losing shroud. Harbinger atleast gets some healing via blight (although at the cost of max health) and a tiny bit of damage.

Honestly the more I think about it; I'd actually like to see scourge become more like a pet class where the shades move around (like elemental summons (i.e. also not permanent)).

[zealex.9410]

On 6/16/2023 at 7:28 AM, nucklepuckk.1805 said:

I'm still salty about alacrity on Celestial Avatar. Imagine if Firebrands had to put the majority of their healing on cooldown in order to maintain quickness. You want quickness? Get locked out of Bow of Truth and Tome 2 Nerd! 

I'm so salty.

So you didnt go on ca to give might?

[Player.2475]

Wow, you managed to push out an update that no one is looking forward to. This is a new accomplishment.

[zealex.9410]

8 minutes ago, Player.2475 said:

Wow, you managed to push out an update that no one is looking forward to. This is a new accomplishment.

Its not

[Yogurt Goblin.5934]

any chance we could get a better distribution of stability and aegis? currently Heal Firebrand is really the only build that can do both, which kinda makes all other heal classes a little lacking, especially when you party is expecting these boons.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

1 hour ago, Yogurt Goblin.5934 said:

any chance we could get a better distribution of stability and aegis? currently Heal Firebrand is really the only build that can do both, which kinda makes all other heal classes a little lacking, especially when you party is expecting these boons.

you clearly haven't been following a lot of patches, because druid can do both. Now if you're asking to have AS MUCH access to stab and aegis as firebrand, maybe learn what ham and druid do better than it and you'd realize you could let hfb at least keep this niche.

[Batalix.2873]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:16 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

@Bookah pls.9352

 😘

 

Is...is this true love?

Seriously Mech players are in denial at how little interaction the spec requires. It's not just an "easy" spec, it literally circumvents so many core combat principles and features that limit other especs--even after the attempts to nerf it. It is fundamentally poor design, and the only way to make the spec work and still feel anything like a specialized robot fantasy class is to remove the players' ability to autoattack at range and replace that with more commands that interact with the Mech. And because Mechanists only have access to three MH weapons anyway,  this pretty much means removing the players' access to weapons altogether and replacing them with Mech commands.

It is frankly the only solution, and the only reasons the devs haven't done it are (a) it would require some actual work to develop Rifle/Pistol/Mace commands for the Mech and (b) it would mean admitting to the players that Mech (and the other EoD especs) was fundamentally a bad, unfinished design at launch. But the game would be much better for it if they would just take a season to properly redo these especs instead of tearing down years of great design to make them fit in.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[RPGrenade.7365]

Have liked and thanked a bunch of people in the first bunch of pages saying things I agree with already, no need to beat a dead horse. But something I either missed or didn't see is that it is really weird that there is a lot of effort being put into support Warrior, but shout healer remains mutually exclusive with crucial support functionality. First it was decent quickness uptime, now it's going to be the stability. Please stop putting other support traits on the same row and let shout healer Warrior finally stop being a meme and actually be fun. It's something I've dreamed about since before healers were even necessary in this game. It's fun, but it is definitely not good--please let it be both!

[Yogurt Goblin.5934]

21 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

you clearly haven't been following a lot of patches, because druid can do both. Now if you're asking to have AS MUCH access to stab and aegis as firebrand, maybe learn what ham and druid do better than it and you'd realize you could let hfb at least keep this niche.

Druid can provide little aegis on a tiger that has mad AI positioning and their stability is alright, but really requires good timing.

But yes, I do believe other classes should have as much stab and aegis as firebrand, seeing as those 2 boons means you can skip certain mechanics.

Let me ask you this, why should hfb keep this niche, when no other class has a niche anymore? Firebrand is not special and shouldn't get any special treatment, its unfair.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Yogurt Goblin.5934

[Batalix.2873]

1 hour ago, Yogurt Goblin.5934 said:

Druid can provide little aegis on a tiger that has mad AI positioning and their stability is alright, but really requires good timing.

But yes, I do believe other classes should have as much stab and aegis as firebrand, seeing as those 2 boons means you can skip certain mechanics.

Let me as you this, why should hfb keep this niche, when no other class has a niche anymore? Firebrand is not special and shouldn't get any special treatment, its unfair.

Iunno, I'm torn. On one hand yes FB shouldn't be the only build with on demand stab and aegis. On the other hand, stab and aegis already threaten to break the game and obviate mechanics anyway, and I'm not even sure FB should have it, let alone every profession getting stab or aegis.

Imo, the best compromise would be to do what I've been advocating for for a long time: reduce FB's DPS and push it further into a support niche. I would not mind FB being the only stabby/aegisy build if it didn't contribute too many other things, the same way Rez Scourge holds a distinct but unnecessary niche for progging, and how I propose Chrono should have both quickness and alac on Well of Action as a niche boon-bolsterer. That way FB's niche would be useful for progging, but not particularly good or efficient and typically not used in experienced group content.

It's already been slowly approaching that over the past two balance patches anyway so it wouldn't be the most radical shift. And now that this patch has highlighted Scourge's unique support niche I really would like to see more especs designed with similar sensibilities: ways to help inexperienced players in various modes of content without breaking the game like Mech, Virt, and old FB do.

I think it is profoundly unhealthy for the game to be trying to make 27 specs all equally viable in PvP. And I think there is a lot of unexplored design space for healing/tanking/mezzing/support gameplay loops that could be just as engaging as DPS rotations and appeal to different swathes of players.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Skyve.6758]

Removing Specter's ability to revive allies with Siphon is going to seriously reduce the fun and uniqueness of the class for me personally. The game should strive to introduce more creative support abilities, not get rid of all of the existing ones!

Additionally, turning Deadeye's Binding Shadow into immobilize only seems like an unnecessary change that will only make players discard that ability altogether. As a Deadeye, it's possible to have continuous immobilize through the rifle, so why have that utility at all? If it's a PvP issue, then by all means, make the change PvP-only!