Rune of the Trapper is terrible gameplay

[Avatar.3568]

55 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I campaigned to get that rune removed for like 5 years. Guess what they removed 2/3rd of all available amulets, a bunch of other runes and sigils... but Trappers Rune is still here. So careful what you ask for, they might remove something random again.

That they removed Menders Amulett was my fault, i Made a Post and anet Made IT With the following Patch, it was the lazyiest way to Nerf scourge and they did, and it worked for 2 weeks but than they Changed Something and it was back

Edited June 10, 2023 by Avatar.3568

[Kuma.1503]

12 minutes ago, Avatar.3568 said:

That they removed Menders Amulett was my fault, i Made a Post and anet Made IT With the following Patch, it was the lazyiest way to Nerf scourge and they did, and it worked for 2 weeks but than they Changed Something and it was back

It was competing with your Namesake. I fully understand. 

[Khalisto.5780]

14 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Absolutely, than they can add sigil of unblockable allowing people to ignore blocks and aegis for first attack after swapping weapons, seems like good idea to.

that  would be nice, after years of removing options

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 6/10/2023 at 3:03 AM, Frequency.6407 said:

Rune isn't the problem, the real problem is how stealth is implemented.

Stealth instantly nullifies any counterplay because you can't target or detect any stealthy player, all the while they can run away or prepare to attack you with no movement penalty. Compare how stealth is implemented in wow; you can detect stealthy players (and target them) if they move too close or in front of you and can pop out of stealth if damaged. Also, stealth reduces movement speed.

I play reaper and tbh this isn’t 100% true. I often times just auto attack the air (as doing so will trigger effects I can see on my character or UI) and often times I will clap their booty cheeks for a nasty 9k from reaper 1’s.

not every class can do attacks like that (the attacks must be AOE) but the counter play is there.

There’s other counter strategies…specifically trappers are easy to shut down because you can negate all of their work by dodging in and out of their traps, or LoSing and attacking from a distance. When it comes to stealth trappers, most of what they do relies on the fact that your doesn’t take the precautions or have the defenses to check for traps…mainly that’s kinda the whole idea behind what a trap is supposed to fundamentally do is to punish people who wander around with little awareness of the environment

Back to stealth though, reveals also exist in the game, and AOE attacks, although not a counter can be an effective defense against a stealthed target. 

[Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259]

Still a few runes that have unique impacts on builds unlike others. Trapper is one of them. Rune of speed is another. Runes like these either get heavily nerfed or deleted from PvP. Remember thieves running around with rock dogs in PvP? It got deleted, just like sigil of air and fire, quickness sigil, etc. Both these above noted runes (trapper, speed) have been nerfed yet the overall utility they provide is still game changing (but not game breaking). If anything, they should have never made superspeed stack in duration in 2021 like swiftness does (which impacted this rune in a positive way given it gives 3 seconds of superspeed per trap used... so you ended up with racecar rangers and dragon hunters). Still, the viability of trapper builds are of little concern given how some basic techniques are all it takes to render them fairly ineffective. You said it is not about being overpowered (mostly objective and defined by measurements and evidence), rather it is just "terrible gameplay" (mostly subjective and measured by personal experience and opinion which varies depending on the person). The variable in this case seems to be a learn-to-play issue (not an insult and obviously just one opinion). Good luck. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Rune of the Trapper is objectively overpowered compared to other runes. No other runes in the game provides that degree of value (stealth and super speed are the strongest effects in the game) on every single utility skill. Most runes provide their benefit on heal skill use, OR elite skill use, OR have a lengthy CD. And that's for effects like "gain resistance (4s) on elite skill use--45sCD.". For RoT to provide stealth and super speed with no CD on every utility is simply unparalleled.

It's also the case that Dragon Hunter would probably lose all viability without RoT.  That, I suspect, is the real reason RoT remains in the game. If so, that probably is a pretty strong indicator that DH needs some serious reworks... It can't be good for a class to be completely dependent on one Rune, right??

Edited June 12, 2023 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Serephen.3420]

On 6/10/2023 at 4:03 PM, Frequency.6407 said:

Rune isn't the problem, the real problem is how stealth is implemented.

Stealth instantly nullifies any counterplay because you can't target or detect any stealthy player, all the while they can run away or prepare to attack you with no movement penalty. Compare how stealth is implemented in wow; you can detect stealthy players (and target them) if they move too close or in front of you and can pop out of stealth if damaged. Also, stealth reduces movement speed.

Honestly stealth would be better if it worked similar to wow or even aion. 

[Nightcore.5621]

I agree. This rune should not be a thing for sure. It does to much in 1 thing. Super speed and stealth..plz

[SevlisBavles.3059]

Out of anything in terms of balancing in the past 2 years or so, I have never seen this forum agree on any of it except this. Unreal that this kitten is still in the game.

Edited June 13, 2023 by SevlisBavles.3059

[Sonork.2916]

On 6/9/2023 at 3:15 AM, SevlisBavles.3059 said:

It doesn't matter whether it's OP or not, whether it actually has an impact on games or not.

It's absolutely terrible gameplay and it needs to be removed.

Just say it as it is.  Stealth in this game is broken as a mechanic.  Doesn't matter what gives it, there is next to no counter play and it provides a huge advantage to the user.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Sonork.2916 said:

Just say it as it is.  Stealth in this game is broken as a mechanic.  Doesn't matter what gives it, there is next to no counter play and it provides a huge advantage to the user.

I'm so proud of this community, after 10 years they start to notice a forest in front of their faces.😭

[Burnfall.9573]

6 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm so proud of this community, after 10 years they start to notice a forest in front of their faces.😭

I'm Extremely proud of the Community as well. Anet no longer can't get away with ignoring our concerns for 10 years

[Fueki.4753]

10 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm so proud of this community, after 10 years they start to notice a forest in front of their faces.

I'm pretty sure people were already complaining during the earlier betas.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Burnfall.9573]

2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I'm pretty sure people were already complaining during the earlier betas.

In Memory of Guild Wars 2 Beta players

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Don't u guys get tired of whining about stealth, man o man, it's in every mmo on every rogue and to lesser degree ranger class in some iteration or another and they have all the same complaints from players who dislike playing as stealth classes and who dislike fighting them, it's not gonna change as it's a staple in the genre so just get over it. We get it u guys don't like it, so what? Others do so.. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Don't u guys get tired of whining about stealth, man o man, it's in every mmo on every rogue and to lesser degree ranger class in some iteration or another and they have all the same complaints from players who dislike playing as stealth classes and who dislike fighting them, it's not gonna change as it's a staple in the genre so just get over it. We get it u guys don't like it, so what? Others do so.. 

If people complain that means they care about the game, if they would stop complaining then game is as good as dead.
If in other mmo people complain about stealth, it means the stealth is garbage there.
Bullies also enjoy beating other people for funnies, is it fun for the one getting beaten though?

[Kuma.1503]

I'm also on board with reworking stealth. It's implimentation is toxic, and it canibalizes any build that gains access to it. 

There's so many ways to make it healthier. A player shouldn't need clairvoyance in order to play around a player who stealthed off screen. I shouldn't need to play the 50/50 guessing game of whether I randomly blow a dodge or not just because soemone went invis in combat. 

In a game about reading and dodging important tells, the ability to hide them is simply too powerful. 

Reveal on cast is something I've been asking for for years. Ever since I first started playing Holo in PoF and realized I could hide the tell for Prime Light beam with Toss Elixir S. 

This was back when PLB had a 3.0 Coefficient or something rediculous and could one shot you. 

 

At the same time. Because builds with stealth have been tweaked so heavily around it, changes will also need to be made to ensure these builds don't become unplayable once Stealth is nerfed. Thief being the elephant in the room here. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Psycoprophet.8107]

U guys are seriously confused on what's actually toxic and what's just annoying almost to the point of cluelessness. Gw2 has thee lost toxic stealth of any mmo I've played and I've almost played all of em literally.

In gw2 for thief to have any extended duration of stealth they must use their very same resources they use to attack, and must continually do so. Yeah they can have short duration stealth via utility but big deal. If thief had nightblades stealth like in eso he could run around conquest and wvw hitting stealth button every 3 secs staying perma stealthed and still have full resources to attack, and would have a condi clear and be invuln to condis while in stealth, though the perma condi clear may have been changed as haven't played eso for over a yr now. Or wow thief could hit one button and perma stealth around conquest or wvw till thwy find a victim and and cc chain u and burst u and have a 1 perma stealth in combat skill for disengaging, lmao u guys seriously don't know how good u guys have it here in ggw2 and it's stealth iteration, but keep blaming stealth for ur inability to learn to deal with one of thee most fair implications of stealth in any mmo and keep spamming threads for it to be reworked into uselessness because u find it annoying lol, keep wasting ur time 🙂

[Greyrat.2378]

7 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

...

Why are you argumenting with thief when the topic is about rune of trapper and problem with stealth in GW2?
Thief is designed around stealth with it's own drawbacks, that's for sure, but that's not the point of this topic.

Since you've mentioned WoW, it would be nice if you would mention some of the differences as well.
Rogue can't just reset the fight by going invis multiple times throughout the fight and dictate the pace (you have Vanish and Sprint to get out of combat but that's it), general flow of combat is also very different (having access to healing skills etc.)
You get revealed if you get hit or someone uses skills like Flare, which is one of the major drawbacks for stealth in WoW (you can more or less predict when they are going to open at you if you are aware of their presence and easily push them out of stealth with AoE, e.g. spam Arcane Explosion or catch them with Frost Nova - worked pretty well most of the time, unless they shadowstep etc.).
Afaik any skill that deals damage will reveal you if you are stealthed. GW has multiple skills that will not break the stealth if you use them (e.g. gyro scrapper) and you don't get revealed if you get hit.

And even with all these drawbacks, rogues are still considered one of the best PvP classes in WoW ever since release.
Now I wonder why. Is it perhaps because stealth itself is very strong tool in general even if there are multiple trade offs involved? 🤔

Edited June 14, 2023 by Greyrat.2378

[Psycoprophet.8107]

56 minutes ago, Greyrat.2378 said:

Why are you argumenting with thief when the topic is about rune of trapper and problem with stealth in GW2?
Thief is designed around stealth with it's own drawbacks, that's for sure, but that's not the point of this topic.

Since you've mentioned WoW, it would be nice if you would mention some of the differences as well.
Rogue can't just reset the fight by going invis multiple times throughout the fight and dictate the pace (you have Vanish and Sprint to get out of combat but that's it), general flow of combat is also very different (having access to healing skills etc.)
You get revealed if you get hit or someone uses skills like Flare, which is one of the major drawbacks for stealth in WoW (you can more or less predict when they are going to open at you if you aware of their presence and easily push them out of stealth with AoE, e.g. spam Arcane Explosion or catch them with Frost Nova - worked pretty well most of the time).
Afaik any skill that deals damage will reveal you if you are stealthed. GW has multiple skills that will not break the stealth if you use them (e.g. gyro scrapper) and you don't get revealed if you get hit.

And even with all these drawbacks, rogues are still considered one of the best PvP classes in WoW ever since release.
Now I wonder why. Is it perhaps because stealth itself is very strong tool in general even if there are multiple trade offs involved? 🤔

Because topics as always in these forums shift into stealth in general , always happens. Thos is pvp subforum not wvw, in pvp trappers gives 1 sec of stealth which which literally makes all of stealth benefits other than a quick detarget moot, yet ^^^^ this thread exists.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

U guys are seriously confused on what's actually toxic and what's just annoying almost to the point of cluelessness. Gw2 has thee lost toxic stealth of any mmo I've played and I've almost played all of em literally.

In gw2 for thief to have any extended duration of stealth they must use their very same resources they use to attack, and must continually do so. Yeah they can have short duration stealth via utility but big deal. If thief had nightblades stealth like in eso he could run around conquest and wvw hitting stealth button every 3 secs staying perma stealthed and still have full resources to attack, and would have a condi clear and be invuln to condis while in stealth, though the perma condi clear may have been changed as haven't played eso for over a yr now. Or wow thief could hit one button and perma stealth around conquest or wvw till thwy find a victim and and cc chain u and burst u and have a 1 perma stealth in combat skill for disengaging, lmao u guys seriously don't know how good u guys have it here in ggw2 and it's stealth iteration, but keep blaming stealth for ur inability to learn to deal with one of thee most fair implications of stealth in any mmo and keep spamming threads for it to be reworked into uselessness because u find it annoying lol, keep wasting ur time 🙂

Comparing ESO Nightblade to GW2 teef is meme. In ESO you heavily invest into either Magicka, Health or Stamina, there's no between "hybrid builds" because they succ. On top of that that hyper invested resource is utilized by whole skill bar, not 1-5, but both weapons, all skills because of that heavy investment. Forgot to mention, have you now? 
Now then WoW, how many skills grant stealth? How that stealth behaves compared to GW2? How the combat is in WoW?
1 ability? "Stealth is a level 3 rogue ability that prevents other creatures from detecting the stealthed player unless particularly close. Attacking and most actions such as looting will cancel Stealth. Taking any damage will cancel Stealth, including direct, AoE and DoT damage, and environmental damage such as fires. However, Stealth does not break from falling damage, unless of course it kills the stealthed unit. You cannot enter Stealth while in combat."? Combat in WoW is wood simulator on top of that.
I have played ESO a lot, it's completely different to GW2 combat, stealth is bad, but better in it's own way with forced resources management. I haven't played WoW, because professionals have standards and if I desired to play wood oriented game I'd go for Woodcutter Simulator 2013 than install WoW.
Then you go to gw2 and see stealth without restrictions, you spam 2 skills and just sit invisible and watch how enemy wastes resources while your utility skills are untouched. Regen of ini is quite high. So what are the drawbacks? None.

[Peter.3901]

Invulnerability/block spam is also a terrible gameplay and should be removed.

But here we are.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Peter.3901

[Morwath.9817]

17 minutes ago, Peter.3901 said:

Invulnerability/block spam is also a terrible gameplay and should be removed.

But here we are.

I've advocated once turning blocks into pulsing barriers, to make game more interactive.