Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Mesmer

[Roadkizzle.2157]

12 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

There are two traits at the end that boost the shield.......

No there are not.

The 3 Grandmaster traits grant Alac or Quickness while unleashing Phantasms or Shatters. The other one has Phantasms occur twice.

Shield is the worst phantasm generation tool the Chrono has and it stays that way with the Traits selected.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

6 hours ago, Hightop.8294 said:

Dazes overwrite each other and do not stack. With Dagger being ranged and with fast projectile speed you barely can create daze chains with clones, they all hit around the same time and together with the Mesmer. All it does is stacking vulnerability if that would not bug currently. 

The problem is more, that we already have one weapon with daze where it fits well.  Anet should do a bit more effort and be more creative with the Dagger ambush and give it something else than daze. 

But there is a delay from when your character uses the ambush skill and when the clones use the ambush skill. 

 

So the dazes from the clones can easily come after the original daze ended and the target is trying to use a new skill.

 

But even then I think it is poor design for a class to be able to spam out a Daze attack every 2 seconds or so.

[Curunen.8729]

Messing around on beta and noticed mirage dodge just reverted to normal dodge for no reason. Unsure of specifics, but seems to break very often using dagger on mirage.

Dagger ambush is ridiculous as expected - I'm not sure if having 1200 piercing daze with IH+DE is a good idea, especially with MH sword on the off set - some disgusting cc potential. Trident at least has a range limit for the stun ambush, and sword misses often enough to not bother people, but dagger ambush is going to be moaned about a lot.

 

Edit - yes it seems dodge bugging a lot on mirage - reverts back to normal, clones don't gain cloak with IH and don't ambush unless using a utility or mirror for cloak.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Curunen.8729

[katte nici.9483]

@Panda.1967 did you really just ask me why it would be harder to balance a game when you add more build combinations and options? Are you working for Arenanet by any chance?

[ruinedEclipse.7896]

I think the major issue with the weaponmaster training is that many classes rely on having the specific weapon that goes with the elite spec. If you play Virtuoso, you can't not run dagger, because dagger skills play into the Virtuoso's gimmick. The same thing goes for other classes like Engi Scrapper and Ranger Druid.

When an elite spec is *meant* to be played a certain way (like Virtuoso can be a great condi), you can't really utilize weapons outside of what they're meant to play like...
So for a spec like Druid- You're not going to be utilizing anything BUT the staff, and outside of Druid, you can't utilize the staff because good luck doing damage.

I think this is the main issue with the concept in of itself. Not just for Mesmers.
If weapons had different skills for different elite specs that played into the gimmick of the specific specs, it might work. But otherwise, I don't see people going for combos aside... like I could see Harbinger benefiting from torch? But then you have issues with like, classes where the weapon is a two-handed weapon can't really mix and match at all. So for Necro and Mes it might work better since one-handed weapons can be swapped around, but with a spec like druid or scrapper, you can't really do anything else?

I feel like If the weapons changed their skills to play into the elite spec-specific gimmick, it'd work a bit better.
Unfortunately balancing something like that would definitely take a lot of time, as well as programming and animations. Is it something I'd gladly wait for? absolutely! But judging by ANET's recent claim that they want to push out as much content as fast as possible (and the way the crunch culture is in the video game industry) I doubt they would take the time to do something like this.

[Aerulight.7250]

It's undeserved feedback at this point, but here's something for the AI scraping the forums and collecting our feedback for Anet which I didn't see mentioned yet, maybe Anet will actually read what it tries to tell them we've said; with their history of deterioration over the last 2 decades, probably not.
 

Dagger #2
1. When reflected this skill gives the clone on hit to the reflecting opponent. 
Appropriate and tactically interesting.

2. If the reflecting opponent is NOT a mesmer, the clones are uncapped, whereas a mesmer is capped at 3 clones (original attacker or reflecting opponent). 
Not appropriate. 
(In testing we managed to get a non mesmer up to at least 6 clones before my hp ran out.)

3. Though an enemy mesmer can shatter the clones produced in this way, the clones will persist for other classes until slain so long as they make contact their target every so often (it does not have to successfully deal damage).
It may merit a decay built in to clones produced via reflection for non-mesmer classes which have no shatter capacity to dismiss the clones. 
However, in actual regular combat their lower hit points may even out their lifespan making this not a concern in the larger picture.

4. The clone can be produced from reflection of the blade going out OR coming back in - a very long window + 3 blades thrown ensures a hit - but does not produce 2 or more clones if all blades and/or both passes of a blade projectile are reflected. 
The window here may merit tweaking, and/or the number of projectiles may merit reduction.

[Gesbo.6420]

So, dagger feels really weak as it doesnt bring any utility to the board as a mainhand. This has been an issue from the very beginingwhen it was implemented and it shows even more with the weapon mastery, not to mention that it has been nerferd into the ground with the previous patch. Also, for some reason bladecall doent hoam to the target anymore which is odd... It also interacts really oddly with reflects? On top of that we dont seem to have any other traitline that interacts with Blade type skills. Unless you are playing virtuoso you are stuck in playing a power build and the scaling of that is not even great anymore... dagger clones dont seem to trigger the aa flurry which is also dissapointing as you cant take advantage of the Sharper Images in any way...

Dagger Ambush, Phantom rasor is also underwhelming. Daze and a little bit of cinditions brings notihng of value to the table really... its a cool concept but the cast time is ridiculous and if someone moves a little they whif.

Axe feels nice on its own - if it worked properly that is, I have noticed that clones just dont get teleported at all and I cant work out why - mainly because it brings the said utility. Breaking targeting is such a powerful tool its amazing to dodge someone. But it being broken sucks. 

Shield as many others have already noted bring requiem back into the mix and requim is just a useless skill... There is a glimmer of idea in everything but it feels scuffed and dissapointing

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

59 minutes ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

So, dagger feels really weak as it doesnt bring any utility to the board as a mainhand. This has been an issue from the very beginingwhen it was implemented and it shows even more with the weapon mastery, not to mention that it has been nerferd into the ground with the previous patch. Also, for some reason bladecall doent hoam to the target anymore which is odd... It also interacts really oddly with reflects? On top of that we dont seem to have any other traitline that interacts with Blade type skills. Unless you are playing virtuoso you are stuck in playing a power build and the scaling of that is not even great anymore... dagger clones dont seem to trigger the aa flurry which is also dissapointing as you cant take advantage of the Sharper Images in any way...

Dagger Ambush, Phantom rasor is also underwhelming. Daze and a little bit of cinditions brings notihng of value to the table really... its a cool concept but the cast time is ridiculous and if someone moves a little they whif.

Axe feels nice on its own - if it worked properly that is, I have noticed that clones just dont get teleported at all and I cant work out why - mainly because it brings the said utility. Breaking targeting is such a powerful tool its amazing to dodge someone. But it being broken sucks. 

Shield as many others have already noted bring requiem back into the mix and requim is just a useless skill... There is a glimmer of idea in everything but it feels scuffed and dissapointing

Dagger only homes on Virtuoso, on other specs dagger 2 is still the old version

[LadyKitty.6120]

Kitty's thoughts:

-Make mirage's dagger ambush into power skill. Currently it has very little synergy with rest of dagger skills since they only inflict Bleeding through Virtuoso traits. Also, introduce "+150 Power" to Nomad's Endurance and "Clones deal 25% more strike damage when they ambush" to Infinite Horizons. 

-Axe (and scepter) need some buffing.

[Budo.6839]

I tested virtuoso dagger + shield. I do not play much raids/strikes/etc. - most open world, and I have a lot of fun with this combination. Every time I blog and evade I get a blade. I think for solo open world its a good combination 🙂

[Jaden.1420]

14 hours ago, Aerulight.7250 said:

1. When reflected this skill gives the clone on hit to the reflecting opponent. 

Appropriate and tactically interesting.

2. If the reflecting opponent is NOT a mesmer, the clones are uncapped, whereas a mesmer is capped at 3 clones (original attacker or reflecting opponent).

Just tested it, absolutely hilarious to see an army of your non Mesmer friend.

[Roogon.6970]

With..
..just learning there WAS a beta!
..time needed to set up a character with equipment and stats.
..learn what is "beta" stuff to look at (as compared to eye candy)
..against real life, finding time to get in game..

.. this BETA was TOO short to a feeling for making comments.
Could you have given us a few more days??

[Montysan.1807]

I tried the beta for awhile....I thought is was a fail..  This is just a lazy way of expanding the game. 

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

Axe Chrono is S-tier fun in PvP. Good god is it awesome. 

[Levetty.1279]

If you make dagger clones trigger their own multi hit thing from auto attacks then you could make discount version of Condi Virtuoso on Mirage and the ambush would make sense.

If not then you should probably make clone dagger ambushes do actual power damage like the GS.

[Varis.5467]

On 7/2/2023 at 5:06 AM, katte nici.9483 said:

@Panda.1967 did you really just ask me why it would be harder to balance a game when you add more build combinations and options? Are you working for Arenanet by any chance?

From what we have seen, I doubt the current balance team staff have the capacity to even ask such question. 🤣

[Leonidrex.5649]

20 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

If you make dagger clones trigger their own multi hit thing from auto attacks then you could make discount version of Condi Virtuoso on Mirage and the ambush would make sense.

If not then you should probably make clone dagger ambushes do actual power damage like the GS.

brotherman, dagger in pvp does no damage and applies no conditions.
and if you think taking entirely useless weapon only to have OK ambush then I dont even know what to tell you xd

[Gesbo.6420]

On 7/2/2023 at 12:09 AM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Dagger only homes on Virtuoso, on other specs dagger 2 is still the old version

Would you look at that, so it does.... as if the weapon was useful enough on its own to have an even scuffed version on the normal specs....

[Exciton.8942]

On 7/2/2023 at 5:07 AM, Jaden.1420 said:

Just tested it, absolutely hilarious to see an army of your non Mesmer friend.

You could do this before with scepter already when it was projectile. Even funnier, try do this against a necro lich. Your friend will get a powerful lich clone!

Edited July 3, 2023 by Exciton.8942

[Sorasnobody.9350]

Dropping a few of my notes here. I want to preface, I did not practice any instance content builds. These are all from a solo-play perspective.

 

The new weapons are fairly nice! I tried dagger first, and was totally thrown back by dagger 2 summoning a dagger throwing clone. After playing Virtuoso for quite a while, I never expected this! It is rather cool though, and I enjoyed to see it! I swapped around to axe/shield as I overlooked dagger. Shield was feeling sluggish, and I'm gonna mention this later on again. I returned to dagger and found a comfortable build that I was really enjoying!

Chronomancer:

Probably to no ones surprise, solo Chronomancer builds are still not that strong. Even using axe I couldn't push that much damage. Axe is still a nice addition don't get me wrong, but Chronomancer is only shines as a power spec I feel so I didn't make use of axe. I think dagger is going to be a nice power main-hand weapon so I do want to eventually try quickness and alacrity power chronomancer.

• Dagger will be nice for instanced content. I've not really jelled with sword main-hand so this will be a nice addition.
• None of the weapons have really changed the effectiveness of a solo chronomancer build so nothing to report there.

 

Virtuoso:

Dagger/shield & dagger/sword -

I tried to figure something out with Virtuoso in a solo sense. I was hoping shield might give you some prowess but it just isn't enough. Virtuoso needs too many things to function and you can achieve them all solo. More of a general Virtuoso issue, but again, this makes me realize how sluggish and underwhelming shield can be. With dagger being a pivotal part of Virtuoso, I didn't even try to consider axe. I know it won't be that useful.

• Shield gives this access to a few extra boons, but shield 4 just feels underwhelming at best.

 

Mirage:

Staff & dagger/focus -

I am absolutely in love with this build! Staff/staff was getting monotonous, same thing over and over again, but this second set breaks the cycle and it also adds a few extra things that I was missing. You can cast Chaos Storm and then weapon swap and use focus 5 and dagger 3 to get a load of confusing bolts off. Something about this is very satisfying for me! Dagger gives me the crowd control I was missing on staff/staff.

• Still has all the great survivability of a solo Mirage build.
• Breaks the cycle of just staff/staff with a weapon combo that pairs well together and enables me to stay mid-ranged.
• It gives me some much needed crowd control for this build that I was heavily lacking for my own taste.
• Has a nice burst of damage, smooth rotation and is pulling more damage than my current live solo build, even with scuffed gear so I'm excited to give it a go once Secrets of the Obscure comes around!

 

Issue(s):

Not really anything specifically from beta, but shield is something I've picked up on. As it is being shipped into every spec, I think shield needs a looking at. Shield 4 is what I am struggling with. It is very slow, it can easily interrupt itself at the end so you don't get a clone and the protection it gives is very minimal. With the new introduction of alacrity and quickness entirely from phantasms and clone shattering. This ability is really not hitting for me on actually being useful. Its meant to be a defensive ability but it feels so restrictive to use. I feel all mesmer specs, playstyle wise and to give boons have a very active one, and shield stops you from being active for a decent amount of time if you consider the flip over skill. I had this thought of turning it into more of an Arcane Shield kind of system?

It would not be a channeled block anymore, but you'd get a buff where you can block three attacks. If you block an attack you get the clone, then you can use the flip over to activate it again to block three more hits. This would turn the ability into something you can press while still using other weapon skills. You could get the phantasm from it to give protection (increase the duration of protection granted as well!) while you summon more clones to give boons, heal, do damage, etc. etc.

As I say, this isn't really feedback pertaining to specifically the beta, but seeing these weapons on other elite specs/core makes me realize how sluggish shield will be. I also accept is this probably won't get looked at, and that is okay, I just wanted to offer my input just in case!

 

That aside, the new Mirage build I found was really fun and I can't wait to play with it!

[Ghostkat.9580]

Shield is going to make Virtuoso very broken because it can basically get infinite blocks, with Shield recharging blades and bladesongs giving Aegis.

When it comes to instanced PvE like strikes and raids, good players might wind up breaking your encounter design by way of being pretty much immortal. Furthermore, unkillable Mesmers in PvP/WvW are going to be a balance nightmare.

It seems Shield from Chronomancer is the reason why the final bladesong lost its damage shielding ability, but what it got instead with off-hand shield is so much more broken. I'd honestly put the bladesong back the way it was and rethink blocks giving blade stacks. This will solve the problem of unkillable Mesmers in PvP/WvW automatically. As it stands, the fifth bladesong isn't terribly useful without its shield if faster-firing abilities just give Aegis quicker.

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 hours ago, Ghostkat.9580 said:

Shield is going to make Virtuoso very broken because it can basically get infinite blocks, with Shield recharging blades and bladesongs giving Aegis.

When it comes to instanced PvE like strikes and raids, good players might wind up breaking your encounter design by way of being pretty much immortal. Furthermore, unkillable Mesmers in PvP/WvW are going to be a balance nightmare.

It seems Shield from Chronomancer is the reason why the final bladesong lost its damage shielding ability, but what it got instead with off-hand shield is so much more broken. I'd honestly put the bladesong back the way it was and rethink blocks giving blade stacks. This will solve the problem of unkillable Mesmers in PvP/WvW automatically. As it stands, the fifth bladesong isn't terribly useful without its shield if faster-firing abilities just give Aegis quicker.

reminder that virtuoso is the only EOD spec that didnt win MAT.
despite that you are frothing at your mouth thinking virtuoso is " balance nightmare " somehow.
and that was before virtuoso got 18 different nerfs 😄
and no, new medicore weapon that doesnt even work properly wont make it good

[Ghostkat.9580]

9 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

reminder that virtuoso is the only EOD spec that didnt win MAT.
despite that you are frothing at your mouth thinking virtuoso is " balance nightmare " somehow.
and that was before virtuoso got 18 different nerfs 😄
and no, new medicore weapon that doesnt even work properly wont make it good

Wait, so you think just because something got nerfs, that somehow makes it okay for it to be literally unkillable with infinite Aegis and blocks?

Clearly you missed the entire point of my post. I wasn't "frothing at the mouth," in spite of whatever you seem to think. I was calmly pointing out that this is an issue the devs should look into because having an unkillable class with infinite blocks by definition defeats the point of a PvP mode.

Your entire response was a series of excuses. "Reminder that it didn't win MAT,". "It got 18 nerfs,". "New weapon is mediocre,".

Again, that affects it being unkillable due to getting infinite blocks how exactly? Just because something has shortcomings in damage output doesn't justify giving it a God Mode. Maybe think a little bit before rushing in to be contrarian so you can keep your response on-topic.

[Dante.1508]

What is the point when no one listens.

[Artyport.2084]

I think shield 5: should go back to cast in front of you instead of ground target.
 

I love dagger shield but I think the two ground targeted skills on  a fast moving/ reactive spec is not the best