June 27 Balance Follow-Ups

[Zephire.8049]

1 hour ago, Crowface.3287 said:

One of my fears is that Anet will see videos like this, shrug, and say "See? Look - Druid is good! I don't know what they're all whining about. Druid is performing better than ever!"

Maybe I'm in the weird minority here, but I have absolutely zero interest in playing Condi Druid. Yes, fine, it's busted, it's strong - no argument there. I've got Condi Virtuoso if I want to pump damage.

I main my Druid to be a squad/party support, specifically Alac Heal Druid. The upcoming changes on July 17th are a step in the right direction, but they certainly aren't a comprehensive fix for all the changes that were made. Some kind of tweak so it was faster/easier to build up your CA form's bar would help significantly.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Alacrity generation bound to CA form, but if we're stuck with that, it still needs work.

That was pretty much their reasoning last June patch with why they nerfed catalyst into the ground. It was "meta-defining" for the top 0.5% of players and they balanced around that instead of looking at how the majority of players did with it or even how many people were using it in instanced content. The new team said they'd stop balancing around the top 1% but I'd say it's clear they're still balancing around factors that won't come up for the majority of players and/or balancing around an expansion that's over a month out.

 

[Maria Murtor.7253]

I quote myself from the Ranger section of the forum:

I miss Fervent Force. For me Untamed was not about Unleash to deal additional damage (if I want to achieve that, I go with Warrior). Untamed was all about this unique Fervent Force mechanic: Reduce your cooldowns by interrupting enemies. That was the gimmick of this class for me.  And Unleash was the frosting on top of that. But now it feels like the only thing this class has to offer is an adrenaline mechanic + Pet. 

[Drag You Down.2615]

12 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I generally agree with this sentiment.

I think abandoning actual specialization roles after HoT was actually a bad move. Some of the most unique especs in the game up until recently were those designed more heavily around support/heal/tank identities: Druid, Herald, Tempest, Scrapper, Chrono.

And while I like that finally broken all-rounders like FB, Scourge, and Mech have finally been pulled back into lower DPS support niches, the damage has already been done. Now every espec has a damage traitline, and unique support niches like rezScourge and burst healers like Herald and Druid have generally lost a lot of unique utility in service of everything homogenizing toward "DPS + alac/quickness".

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the idea of support barrier-Scourge and would like to see more fleshing out of that identity. But Scourge never needed to also be a high DPS class to begin with, and clearly the devs are prioritizing DPS too much in the restructuring. Instead of carving design space out of the DPS traits, they have decided to instead take a hacksaw to the heal/support traits to make room for alacrity, as if each class is only allowed one support line.

And I think that sucks and makes for really boring design, and largely why I am taking a break from the game. I was never lacking for DPS classes, but as someone who prefers mages, supports, healers, tanks, that design space is increasingly getting shoved out and giving me fewer and fewer options that satisfy those archetypal fantasies. More and more non-DPS identities are being transitioned into "DPS+" identities, and boons becoming even more passively traited to pure DPS builds, which is just boring for someone like me who would rather feel like I am making a deliberate decision in how I want to contribute to combat.

I don't think anyone really *wanted* DPS Druid or Tempest. And frankly I would have been playing FB, Scourge, and Mech a lot more from the beginning if they actually were pure support/technical classes instead of just lazy "unearned passive DPS" builds.

Agreed.

Like FF14, every class looks so similar. Yes all of them can do everything, so that's why playing an engi feels not so different with playing a necro. We need something more, we need to make engi like engi, necro like necro, not only their names and visuals, but their skill effects and playing styles.

Just like all I have in my wardrobe are shirts, they are light pink, light blue, light yellow. Ppl may say:"Hey! They look different." But ultimately, THEY ARE ALL SHIRTS!!!

[MLinni.6109]

A bit more alacrity on overload would be very appreciated on tempest as well. Even with boon extension the poor alac icon on your bar is nearly constantly flickering. One interrupt and it's gone. Even with concentration. Alac is highly fiddly to keep up. Perhaps adding 1s on each aura you provide might lessen the strain a bit.

[Redsnabba.9172]

On 6/29/2023 at 10:20 PM, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

• Shadestep: Reduced alacrity duration from 2 seconds to 1.25 seconds in PvE only. 
• Strength of Shadows: This trait no longer reduces incoming damage and no longer increases the duration of torment inflicted by Rot Wallow Venom, but instead increases torment damage by 25% in addition to converting vitality to expertise. 
• Larcenous Torment: This trait no longer increases torment damage, and instead steals health from an enemy when you apply torment to them. 
• Shadow Sap: Increased protection duration from 2.5 seconds to 4 seconds in PvE only. 
   

I'm not inherently opposed to any of these but please consider adding some additional concentration option for the "Consume Shadows" trait . i think the nerf to Shadestep is gonna make that one really, really difficult to play otherwise even with full ritualist gear.

Also i think you're still being too conservative on the alacrity on the druid.
Overall nice changes though imo
 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Redsnabba.9172

[Pie.2167]

For Mesmer, Escape Artist distortion does not last long enough for Phantasmal Warden to completely finish its attack and turn into a clone.  Please consider increasing the duration to 6 or 7 seconds, or better yet, just make phantasms spawn with distortion until they turn into clones as a core mechanic and not require a trait. 

From a WvW perspective, I appreciate the increase alacrity duration on Flow of Time.  That said, Chronomancer still very much underperforms in party alacrity compared to Tempest and Druid now.   It would be great if Chrono had a method to apply alacrity besides shatters that could be used out of combat, preferably tied to Wells and/or Shield.

Thank you!

Edited July 11, 2023 by Pie.2167

[Paroxzyme.6053]

Please revert signets of suffering change for Necromancer or at the least make signets still function when in shroud at their standard value

[Darklord Roy.2514]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:01 PM, TheRunningSquire.3621 said:

The scourge people are not providing anything useful in this thread besides "juice the numbers up",  "fix shade", really?

I see at most 2 people bringing up numbers with Scourge, and everyone else is talking about shade because they completely gutted it. They went against the entire design philosophy in this patch of "reducing spammy builds" by forcing Scourge to constantly spam shade AND barrier skills. All the people I've seen upset about it are offering reasonable solutions, bumping back up shade times and putting alacrity on sand savant (which was always supposed to be the support GM trait *from the beginning*).

From your other comments, you seem to be under the impression that Scourge players just want all the changes to be reverted and the class to not be touched again at all.

That's not what anyone's saying.

People want the changes reverted. Because right now the class feels terrible to play. AND THEN, they want different, better implementations to be put up on the drawing board.

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 7/9/2023 at 5:29 PM, doc.9162 said:

barh, they aren't listening. sucked the fun right out the game with this patch.

I have a feeling it was the entire new expansion and they built it into the future game they all ready sold and worked months on... how will they fix this mess of junk now?

[Burnfall.9573]

-Necromancer Profession has joined The Celestial Clown Party-

As a Necromancer Profession player; I am calling out again for the immediate removal of Celestial...alongside with Trapper rune 

Anet; Please WAKE UP!!

Edited July 12, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Bit late to this party and I don't wanna read 25 pages worth of comments, so I'll ask straight up:

Was there any explanation about the uber-cryptic description for scourge's new Sand Savant?
I mean it sounds like the already existing minor trait (Sand Sage).

So what's the deal here? Does it now add it's effect effectively doubling the value (15% durations from sand sage + 15% more from Sand Savant)?
Do the stat boosts replace the single larger shade functionality or are added on top?

Does the Sand Sage stay as is, or did it get shanked given how Sand Sage seems to be exactly the same trait ?

[Zephire.8049]

8 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Bit late to this party and I don't wanna read 25 pages worth of comments, so I'll ask straight up:

Was there any explanation about the uber-cryptic description for scourge's new Sand Savant?
I mean it sounds like the already existing minor trait (Sand Sage).

So what's the deal here? Does it now add it's effect effectively doubling the value (15% durations from sand sage + 15% more from Sand Savant)?
Do the stat boosts replace the single larger shade functionality or are added on top?

Does the Sand Sage stay as is, or did it get shanked given how Sand Sage seems to be exactly the same trait ?

Nope, none. The opening post is the most recent and comprehensive info we have to go on if the patch notes don't cover it. You can even check the Dev Tracker below the GW2 logo up top to see if anyone has posted in a random thread.

But a lot of skills/traits no longer have matching tooltips and they changed mechanist's mace auto attack without mentioning it so we're at a point where we have no idea what's happening, what the plan is, or if the right hand is talking to the left. So you'll have to find theorycrafters and people who have done extensive testing to see what's going on with Sand Savant, unless someone here knows.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

36 minutes ago, Zephire.8049 said:

Nope, none. The opening post is the most recent and comprehensive info we have to go on if the patch notes don't cover it. You can even check the Dev Tracker below the GW2 logo up top to see if anyone has posted in a random thread.

But a lot of skills/traits no longer have matching tooltips and they changed mechanist's mace auto attack without mentioning it so we're at a point where we have no idea what's happening, what the plan is, or if the right hand is talking to the left. So you'll have to find theorycrafters and people who have done extensive testing to see what's going on with Sand Savant, unless someone here knows.

Nvm it was mb. The trait they describe is Sand Sage (the minor one). It'll simply work at full power with even one shade.
Sand Savant remains untouched it seems.

[DemonCrypto.6792]

Hi

I have a question for warrior futur.

Ok you have given acces too alac and quick on berserker and bladesworn on this last patch.

this make them dps  support (for now).

The question: Are you going to twist ,break and rework one of them to make "heal support" warrior ?

This question come with the concern that off the 3 possibles choices to make for an alacheal or a quickheal these are mechanically wise, trait wise and utilitys skill wise, the worst options.

I don't say spellbreaker is better , just looking at his "utility skills nobody use" make you see why, but of the 3 this was at least the most coherente lore wise (Sunspear/dervish/parangon origines and traditions).

to compare:

-Bladesworn can't weapon burst, this is a problem if warrior get a heal weapon. bladesworn shouldn't stray away from his core "single big burst", it should stay the "DPS" e spec for warrior, his mecanic does not mixes well with sustain of boon and heals.

-Berserker has dps trait (condi and power) and survability traits (they are pretty good and would be a shame or build breaking to rework them to put a heal build in there) the only thing that could be interesting would be a heal primal burst, but then it would be bound to berserker mode and offer no reactive and adaptative gameplay.

-Spellbreaker, utilitys skill are the worst of warrior choices (they could be fundamentaly reworked), class mechanics aske to be in combat but are quick to access and can reset  CD's on weapons burst; traits  could be reworked to work for groups. the only real obstacle is the lack of "essential" boon giving.

 

If you think to add a heal war build in the futur, please don't put it on bladesworn.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by DemonCrypto.6792

[XECOR.2814]

15 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Bit late to this party and I don't wanna read 25 pages worth of comments, so I'll ask straight up:

Was there any explanation about the uber-cryptic description for scourge's new Sand Savant?
I mean it sounds like the already existing minor trait (Sand Sage).

So what's the deal here? Does it now add it's effect effectively doubling the value (15% durations from sand sage + 15% more from Sand Savant)?
Do the stat boosts replace the single larger shade functionality or are added on top?

Does the Sand Sage stay as is, or did it get shanked given how Sand Sage seems to be exactly the same trait ?

Sand Savant will work the same but its effect of acting like three will be useless as all the bonus is received from 1 shade baseline.
There are many things wrong with sand savant like increased cd and now its effect becoming irrelevant because of trait change. Add that with scuffed coded abilities like sandstorm shroud with different ranges for support vs damage to enemies and you have like 3 different aoe ranges to take care of while working with ally priorities acting differently on pulses vs detonation of sandstorm shroud.
Good luck with that

Edited July 13, 2023 by XECOR.2814

[humfrid.2615]

Please consider restoring the duration of Manifest Sandshade back to 20 sec.

The 8s duration makes it so unfun to play. I makes my scourge loving heart very very sad 🥺

If that means that scourge can’t give alacrity, so be it. ATM I’d much prefer that to the 8s solution. 

[Mike.7983]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:15 AM, humfrid.2615 said:

Please consider restoring the duration of Manifest Sandshade back to 20 sec.

The 8s duration makes it so unfun to play. I makes my scourge loving heart very very sad 🥺

If that means that scourge can’t give alacrity, so be it. ATM I’d much prefer that to the 8s solution. 

Ironic they wanted to move away from skill spam, but caused sand shade to be all spam.

[Acheron.1580]

Not to be the bad guy but I don't think they said they wanted to get away from skill spamming, they wanted to get away from forced utility spamming. Mostly because people thought forced utilities were stifling creative play and there's nothing interesting about spamming one skill that doesn't fit your kit to provide a buff.

They got the first part right, specs are no longer forced into specific utility skills, but they completely messed up the execution of the second half. They just transferred the spam to a class mechanic without considering that not all class mechanics are the same; in some cases it was already part of your rotation so no big deal, in others it forces you to use it off cooldown which brings back stifled unreactive and uncreative play.

In the case of druid they completely changed their utility spam spirits, I think people mostly just wanted them to be unkillable by stupid crap in PvE but they couldn't figure out how to do that so we got the new version, which some people I believe enjoy but I really do not. I think they are super clunky, and their buff durations are abysmal.

[bruakumfd.4817]

Massive W for the change on the Scourge's Shades. And of course, one for actually being able to find good feedback.

[Sjentra.3409]

So 3 days till patch day; what's the over/under on none of our feedback over the last 3 weeks mattered and the patch notes will be 99% the same as what they posted on 6/29.

[Zephire.8049]

9 minutes ago, Sjentra.3409 said:

So 3 days till patch day; what's the over/under on none of our feedback over the last 3 weeks mattered and the patch notes will be 99% the same as what they posted on 6/29.

I very much doubt we'll see any meaningful changes from what they posted already. The only question is what changes quickness deadeye will get as they said they were going to nerf the spec but didn't know how yet, everything else was set in stone on 6/29 with how this balance team operates.

[anna.5487]

I sincerely don't like the direction this game is going and consider rejoining FFXIV. It' a mess. Some classes have it easy, just because, and others have to go to lengths to do similar things. Plus the imbalance in traits and so on. Signet Cata should be considered an  exploit, sincerely. Plus the scepter 2, who hits no matter what and follows you?

[Master Ketsu.4569]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:28 PM, Zephire.8049 said:

That was pretty much their reasoning last June patch with why they nerfed catalyst into the ground. It was "meta-defining" for the top 0.5% of players and they balanced around that instead of looking at how the majority of players did with it or even how many people were using it in instanced content. The new team said they'd stop balancing around the top 1% but I'd say it's clear they're still balancing around factors that won't come up for the majority of players and/or balancing around an expansion that's over a month out.

 

It is logically impossible to balance around casual players as casual players are not equally unskilled in all aspects.

People who are demanding Cata remain broken OP just because they are bad and don't want to learn the spec is the height of entitlement.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Zephire.8049]

1 hour ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

It is logically impossible to balance around casual players as casual players are not equally unskilled in all aspects.

People who are demanding Cata remain broken OP just because they are bad and don't want to learn the spec is the height of entitlement.

Sure nothing can be balanced perfectly and no doubt Cata is absolutely broken in PvP, but it's not sustainable to only balance PvE around the top 5% of players. The majority of bills are paid and new players brought in via word of mouth by players who don't run CMs or push hard instanced content so it's horrible to ignore them when it comes to balancing. If a class isn't enjoyable to play, be it not doing damage, not being welcome in group content, or simply not feeling good—or if it was but was suddenly changed with no warning—people who aren't invested in GW2 already are far less likely to stick around, buy gems, or recommend the game to people. Player retention is incredibly important in MMOs and what many end up struggling with.

The bottom wrung of players shouldn't be balanced around but neither should the top. The top will excel no matter what. Finding the sweet spot to balance around where it's neither around the skill floor nor ceiling is what's important. I don't know enough about Cata to know why it's brokenly OP in PvP currently but last year it was explicitly stated by the balance lead at the time that they were balancing PvE Cata around the top 1%. That's just not an enjoyable experience for anyone.

Leaving balance broken instead of stepping in is also a huge issue. There will always be missteps and bugs in balancing but if something is destroying the meta or sees a large drop off of a spec being played, that should get a hotfix or rollback and the approach to balancing that class/spec reassessed. Not left broken for weeks/months/years.

[WipZedKay.5316]

Nothing on engineer, at all!? Been a very clear sentiment that mechanist feels terrible to play at the moment due mechanical genius having no grace period any more and the scrapper changes are also quite controversial and got many to go away from it! So we're going to be stuck in this state where support engineer either feels like crap or is fundamentally different from what many fell in love with? At least fix one of the problems that have been discussed on the forums for the past month!