Scorched Earth Meta is Bad

[Cael.3960]

In the Arms tratiline Sundering Burst can apply (on a crit) 10 stacks of vulnerability per target struck. Scorched Earth has the potential to hit 75 different targets given perfect conditions, but a more accurate possibility is around 30-40 with quality aim and timing. That means ~35/50 of an enemy squad get 10 stacks of vulnerability. With multiple berserkers casting Scorched Earth on the same target pool, you easily hit the vulnerability cap with only three Scorched Earths. That means you're now dealing 25% more damage on top of all the traited damage increases to a full squad. Now double that.  I've seen single casts of this skill do over  60k damage with a single button press. 

My problem isn't with the CC bomb or the stun-train (though that's also something that's happening in high-level play), it's 1 skill providing the overwhelming majority of damage in a fight. Competitive modes should encourage a diverse use of skills to suit a range of engagements. This skill is sufficiently overtuned that it's defining the meta around a single skill application and the engagements which favor it. I'm fine with it stacking vulnerability. I'm fine with it dealing as much damage per tick as it does. But the potential to hit 25 targets at a time and then tick twice more for a potential 75 packets of damage is far too much for one button press. Competitive play should be more skillful than this. 

 

Boost the individual damage and knock the target cap down to 10 per tick and I'm fine with it. You still have a meta-leading skill that combines well with other squad compositions, only now it presents players with a wider range of effective choices for the class. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Cael.3960

[XenesisII.1540]

Skills that remove conditions

🤷‍♂️🍦

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 6/30/2023 at 10:56 PM, Cael.3960 said:

Seriously. When 6 Berserkers can deal 70% of full squad's total damage with one skill, it needs to be addressed. This skill is so overtuned it's literally dominating every large-scale engagement in WvW right now

Pile on Chrono Grav Well bombs and The Warrior Hammer train  the game is now about who can CC and Scorched Earth burn first. Terrible meta. 

Meta? Boon ball is meta, that includes cleanse.

[Johje Holan.4607]

Woah hammer trains are back?  After reading all the crying about the patch, especially on the profession forum (man they make the WvW forum look like rainbows and unicorns) I was worried. But if it brought back hammer trains; best patch ever!

[Lighter.5631]

haha you know why it's not nerfed? because it's all tickling damage and paddings

you just seem big DPM on arcdps, because it hits a lot people with tickling damage and it adds up, but in the end it's just ineffective tickling damage.

it's not effective DPS.

the effective DPS are the big hits like wells etc that can actually down people.

like doesn't matter if you hit 75 people with 1k per person and get a 75k DPS, nobody will ever down to that.

or you hit 5 people with 10k damage, you will down someone that's for sure.

you are like those spvp noobs who just play bunker and teamfight all game without killing anybody but your tickling damage adds up because you did like 10 minutes of team fight on enemy node and got top damage and think you did something.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Lighter.5631

[RisenHowl.2419]

5 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

haha you know why it's not nerfed? because it's all tickling damage and paddings

you just seem big DPM on arcdps, because it hits a lot people with tickling damage and it adds up, but in the end it's just ineffective tickling damage.

it's not effective DPS.

the effective DPS are the big hits like wells etc that can actually down people.

like doesn't matter if you hit 75 people with 1k per person and get a 75k DPS, nobody will ever down to that.

or you hit 5 people with 10k damage, you will down someone that's for sure.

you are like those spvp noobs who just play bunker and teamfight all game without killing anybody but your tickling damage adds up because you did like 10 minutes of team fight on enemy node and got top damage and think you did something.

kitten if only there were some way to coordinate multiple berserkers and have them use it twice in a row...

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, Johje Holan.4607 said:

Woah hammer trains are back?  After reading all the crying about the patch, especially on the profession forum (man they make the WvW forum look like rainbows and unicorns) I was worried. But if it brought back hammer trains; best patch ever!

Not sure if serious, are you seeing melee trains? Not seeing any difference so far. Watching for their expected output but so far, not so much. 

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

On 7/1/2023 at 2:41 PM, Zevelon.6512 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scorched_Earth

 

Read 

Notes

• Enemies are able to be struck by this skill only once every 0.5 seconds.
• Can hit 5 enemies per burning section for a total of 25 targets.

 

The reason why the DPS appears to be so high is that it is hitting up to 25 enemies for decent damage. I think the point being made was that wells deal more damage to 5 targets than scorched earth does (to 5 targets) because scorched earth hits 25 targets. Under optimal conditions you need to divide the damage done by scorched earth by 5 in order to compare it to other skills that hit fewer targets. In large fights almost killing 25 people is less effective than actually downing 5 people.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Warriors? Usefull in Wvw? 

Hammer? Arms traitline? 

Is it 2012 again? Am I dreaming? 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Give us more high target cap skills.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

So... nerf scrapper superspeed and rework firebrand mantras? Got it.

[TheGrimm.5624]

14 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

So... nerf scrapper superspeed and rework firebrand mantras? Got it.

Reduce all boon application target caps, reduce all AoE ranged damage target caps, increase all melee target caps, leave healing alone. Test, re-evaluate. Adjust, test again.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

7 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

reduce all AoE ranged damage target caps, increase all melee target caps,

You mean increase all AoE target caps?

[TheGrimm.5624]

58 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

You mean increase all AoE target caps?

No. So in the balance review ANet stated they think that the reason melee doesn't close ranks is due to all the pressure they face before making it in melee range due to lack of boons to move thru the red rings to get to the target. So they decide to try doubling down on boons by boosting boons and cutting the anti-boons. Which when we look back to the hammer train days the complaint was melee would dominate if they closed range so the idea then was to cut stability and increase in range pressure. Which lead to the pirate ship meta. So instead this time around they decide to cut anti-boon asnd increase boon versus addressing ranged pressure. But by increasing boons without addressing ranged pressure all they do is create more boonball pressure which sounds good on paper. It means that a small boon ball can bust a larger group that doesn't have boons. But that also means that a large boonball can't be busted in turn. Which when you look at it from a range to melee perspective you encourage even less melee to range because the melee range has even more risk to it where as the ranged can fire into the ball safely but the melee needs to dive in. Again the assumption they made was melee doesn't engage without boons but they went with the idea that melee didn't dive in since they feared their lack of boons without considering that melee didn't dive in considering all the boons the other side has after the get thru the red rings.

So again the issue wasn't addressed of the amount of ranged pressure that would be faced in closing the distance and then the boons waiting on the other side. So if that balance doesn't change, then again a test week in reducing boons, reducing ranged AoE caps and increasing melee target caps would be an interesting test. The question is would you see a change in only a week long test since it takes months for people to change their mindsets and playstyles so that is questionable. To me we already had too many boons, by further cutting anti-boon we are seeing more boon balls of various sizes and less counters. So we are further out of balance in play scale and options to counter. That also applies to attacking and defending since quite often you will start with less defenders and when they have less options to counter massive boonball attackers it just leads to more paper structures. So we may need to re-up siege AoEs as well and add more anti-boon options to it.

 

[Ferus.3165]

Scorched Earth Meta is Good

[blp.3489]

How about skills like the Rev one that lays down a road but the road allows your players to cross without triggering red circles or that gives invulnerability or protection or something like that that, with coordination,  would allow melee players to reach the enemy. It seems like there must be a simpler more direct way to address the red circles than going crazy with giving out permanent boons.  More skills that clear out red circles would be another more direct approach. Using boons for this purpose really seems like bad design, it seems like using a screwdriver to pound nails.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

On 7/2/2023 at 10:42 AM, Lighter.5631 said:

haha you know why it's not nerfed? because it's all tickling damage and paddings

you just seem big DPM on arcdps, because it hits a lot people with tickling damage and it adds up, but in the end it's just ineffective tickling damage.

it's not effective DPS.

the effective DPS are the big hits like wells etc that can actually down people.

like doesn't matter if you hit 75 people with 1k per person and get a 75k DPS, nobody will ever down to that.

or you hit 5 people with 10k damage, you will down someone that's for sure.

you are like those spvp noobs who just play bunker and teamfight all game without killing anybody but your tickling damage adds up because you did like 10 minutes of team fight on enemy node and got top damage and think you did something.

exactly, and i find it funny how ppl use the 25 target cap in their calculations like thats in any way realistic. at most the last 3 squares will hit ~12 ppl per tic usually and the same person will only get hit once maybe twice cuz of how small the squares are. the only time someone would hit target cap is if the zerg had a tail and you used it when they were coming at you which wouldn't happen often. most times scorched earth is used for pirate shipping anyways so its effectiveness is reduced

Edited July 6, 2023 by Stand The Wall.6987

[GutsHero.2049]

Bro just walk out of it lmfao.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Honestly if it wasn't a ranged condition damage source (so Trailblazer) it'd be great.

Melee power based damage hitting 20+ people on an otherwise pretty slow class to encourage charges?  Fantastic meta.

[enkidu.5937]

Imagine someone that plays [insert_whatever_PvP_teamgame_outthere] to just read this thread and thinking:

„WTF are these guys stupid? They want to stack 50 people on one spot, getting bombed all the time, trying to tank all that damage, instead of spreading and evading!?! And now they complain about the damage output of a skill that hits 25 people because they stack in a small area instead of evading???“ 🤣

 

Seriously guys, just spread and evade. Its not that hard. Stacking will never become the Meta. People did that in 2013 to counter the massive lags with stack-on-tag, thats all. 😏

[Widebody.5071]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:22 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

Skills that remove conditions

🤷‍♂️🍦

We need skills that prevent conditions just like we have skills that prevent damage or remove some of the invulnerability in the game and replace them with damage reduction skills.  The condi reduction skills are bogus.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Widebody.5071

[Kal Durak.2830]

4 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said:

like we have skills that prevent damage

Which all your armor is negated with one cast to give you vulnerability .... So all that gear you put on other than offense is really ...junk, doesn't mean anything.  Need to get rid of invuln IMHO or change it. 

[Kal Durak.2830]

On 7/9/2023 at 2:58 PM, Areoh.7495 said:

Which all your armor is negated with one cast to give you vulnerability .... So all that gear you put on other than offense is really ...junk, doesn't mean anything.  Need to get rid of invuln IMHO or change it. 

^^^^