Ranger is new signet cata - it gotta be balanced/nerfed next.

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

Few points to be made for conjecture:

1. If Grimjack beats you with a Weaver, does that mean Weaver is overperforming?
2. Boyce had advantage with the build during first time use. Any time someone comes in with a new build structure, especially when played by a good player, they have an advantage mechanically because other players are not yet sure how to deal with it, There is a phase that must occur of figuring out how it moves, what it does, and how to shut it down.
3. As I explained in the video, when the full melee Soulbeast is part of a team who is the stronger team, his team mates can apply a greater pressure in the match that alleviates focus from the melee Soulbeast and allows him to ride the pressure and land the gimmick. When I reviewed Teapot's stream, this is what I seen in the EU final of r55 vs. worms, a highly dominant r55 team. Now if you were to clone r55 players and make them fight each other with the same comps only difference being Boyce on RED is melee Soulbeast but Boyce on BLUE is something else, let's say a Condi Herald, what would happen in an equal pressure game like that, is the melee Soulbeast wouldn't have enough pressure to ride to successfully work his gimmick. The BLUE team with a Condi Herald for the counter would win.

Melee Soulbeast is a great build for riding pressure, and in games where it has pressure to ride, it makes the Melee Soulbeast look more effective than it actually is. But in games where the Soulbeast is on the team who has less pressure who is being pressured, it has a very difficult time finding moments to successfully land its gimmick without being caught/focused and immediately exploding on impact. In other words, it is not a carry build in the same way that a strong side noder or support is, or something like a good team fighter that can push a hard offense while staying on the node and having enough defenses to draw aggro while allowing its team to regroup around it. The Melee Soulbeast has to stay away from 1v2ish type situations and wait for the team fighter or the side noder to push a successful hold moment so it can get in with that big DPS. If the team mates around the Melee Soulbeast cannot push a successful hold moment for the Soulbeast to have opportunity to land all that DPS without threat of being targeted/focused into immediate downstate, the Soulbeast ends up kiting around the map and not really being able to get anything done at all.

It'll be gone in a couple of weeks when everyone starts running Condiserks & Condi Heralds ect ect to counter it. 100% guarantee.

I wasn't arguing he's not great.  Just someone said there were only two rangers in MAT, and they didn't mention him.... and my point was... there was definitely Boyce who did quite well with it.  Simply pointing out his existence.

Now in terms of it not being a great 5 man pre-made team choice?? well sure I can buy that.  But I play ranked... and in v1's there it does pretty kitten well...   So the question is .. what do you balance around and is this the type of play that is something you want to encourage... or is it something you don't really want to see a lot of in your game.   

There have been many builds that were never at all competitive or even good that they have realised were toxic and done something about.  Take the silly turret engi... I could stomp that thing all day long cause I had AOE damage.  It never played in plat.. or any tournament... but they nerfed the crap out of it all the same cause it wasn't a playstyle they wanted to introduce for game healthiness.

Did you ever see 5 man teams running FT gyro engi??? nope, but nerfed cause of its effect on ranked intermediate players because of the playstyle it engendered.

Edited July 26, 2023 by shion.2084

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

36 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

So the question is .. what do you balance around and is this the type of play that is something you want to encourage.

Nah it'll get nerfed for sure. Ranger always does when it pumps too much damage cause it pisses so many people off.

The issue here isn't if it will or won't get nerfed, it's encouraging arenanet to nerf the right things rather than things that will effect every other ranger build.

38 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

or is it something you don't really want to see a lot of in your game.

I personally think they are farmable. I have absolutely no problem when players try to play this into me.

39 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Did you ever see 5 man teams running FT gyro engi??? nope, but nerfed cause of its effect on ranked intermediate players because of the playstyle it engendered

It didn't have time to turn into 5 man stacks in ATs. They nerfed it like immediately when it was apparent that the moving stealth pulse on Sneak Gyro + its smoke field + the super speed was too good. And no, laying a smoke field from a smoke scale in a stationary position that slows down your team's entire rotation where they have to burn half their CDs to leap & blast everyone is of no comparison to old Sneak Gyro allowing a team to move while stealthing for free while not even utilizing the smoke field while also benefitting super speed to actually speed up rotations.

People need to lay off the comparison of old Sneak Gyro to smoke field. Not saying you're doing that, but I have seen like 3x people coin this reference as if to encourage the idea that a single misc smoke field were as problematic as old Sneak Gyro, which is a ridiculous notion. If the community wants to go down that route, then we'll be needing to tend to all smoke fields and all leaps & blasts in those smoke fields. Which I mean, if they want to climb up that tree go for it, but don't single out Soulbeast smoke field. It's no different than any other smoke field.

If anything, it's that the Soulbeast ITSELF not including its team, now has access to 2x sword leaps, 1x greatsword leap, 1x leap WI, and blast on Warhorn. The amount of finishers that it can use through smoke fields or even a water field for heal, is extremely bloated. There is a discussion in this, but the smoke field itself shouldn't be targeted, as it is the same exact smoke field that has been present since HoT release and has never been a problem until now, when full melee comes into play with buffed sword & favorable warhorn use.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Nah it'll get nerfed for sure. Ranger always does when it pumps too much damage cause it pisses so many people off.

The issue here isn't if it will or won't get nerfed, it's encouraging arenanet to nerf the right things rather than things that will effect every other ranger build.

I personally think they are farmable. I have absolutely no problem when players try to play this into me.

It didn't have time to turn into 5 man stacks in ATs. They nerfed it like immediately when it was apparent that the moving stealth pulse on Sneak Gyro + its smoke field + the super speed was too good. And no, laying a smoke field from a smoke scale in a stationary position that slows down your team's entire rotation where they have to burn half their CDs to leap & blast everyone is of no comparison to old Sneak Gyro allowing a team to move while stealthing for free while not even utilizing the smoke field while also benefitting super speed to actually speed up rotations.

People need to lay off the comparison of old Sneak Gyro to smoke field. Not saying you're doing that, but I have seen like 3x people coin this reference as if to encourage the idea that a single misc smoke field were as problematic as old Sneak Gyro, which is a ridiculous notion. If the community wants to go down that route, then we'll be needing to tend to all smoke fields and all leaps & blasts in those smoke fields. Which I mean, if they want to climb up that tree go for it, but don't single out Soulbeast smoke field. It's no different than any other smoke field.

If anything, it's that the Soulbeast ITSELF not including its team, now has access to 2x sword leaps, 1x greatsword leap, 1x leap WI, and blast on Warhorn. The amount of finishers that it can use through smoke fields or even a water field for heal, is extremely bloated. There is a discussion in this, but the smoke field itself shouldn't be targeted, as it is the same exact smoke field that has been present since HoT release and has never been a problem until now, when full melee comes into play with buffed sword & favorable warhorn use.

Ah.. so now that ranger is on chopping board we want sensible nerfs 😜

 

I rememeber suggesting to remove the stability procs from signets, reduce/remove the -20% condi passive, remove condi from auto and spread it over other fire abilitys. Instead we got a 70% nerf to auto damage, a 50% nerf to dragontooth condi, a 50?% nerf to churn condi, a wrecked master trait from ICDs, and a massive CD increase on signets, along with power co nerfs across scepter, which has pretty much killed 3/4 of ele specs that had nothing to do with condi cata.

 

For the sake of not holding a grudge, I hope they do a bette job with SB, or else the game will soon be nothing but warriors and necros.. nothing else will be worth the effort.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Nah it'll get nerfed for sure. Ranger always does when it pumps too much damage cause it pisses so many people off.

The issue here isn't if it will or won't get nerfed, it's encouraging arenanet to nerf the right things rather than things that will effect every other ranger build.

I personally think they are farmable. I have absolutely no problem when players try to play this into me.

It didn't have time to turn into 5 man stacks in ATs. They nerfed it like immediately when it was apparent that the moving stealth pulse on Sneak Gyro + its smoke field + the super speed was too good. And no, laying a smoke field from a smoke scale in a stationary position that slows down your team's entire rotation where they have to burn half their CDs to leap & blast everyone is of no comparison to old Sneak Gyro allowing a team to move while stealthing for free while not even utilizing the smoke field while also benefitting super speed to actually speed up rotations.

People need to lay off the comparison of old Sneak Gyro to smoke field. Not saying you're doing that, but I have seen like 3x people coin this reference as if to encourage the idea that a single misc smoke field were as problematic as old Sneak Gyro, which is a ridiculous notion. If the community wants to go down that route, then we'll be needing to tend to all smoke fields and all leaps & blasts in those smoke fields. Which I mean, if they want to climb up that tree go for it, but don't single out Soulbeast smoke field. It's no different than any other smoke field.

If anything, it's that the Soulbeast ITSELF not including its team, now has access to 2x sword leaps, 1x greatsword leap, 1x leap WI, and blast on Warhorn. The amount of finishers that it can use through smoke fields or even a water field for heal, is extremely bloated. There is a discussion in this, but the smoke field itself shouldn't be targeted, as it is the same exact smoke field that has been present since HoT release and has never been a problem until now, when full melee comes into play with buffed sword & favorable warhorn use.

The issue is the length of stealth I think.   15 seconds or so... it's impossible to mentally track that or account for it in actions an opponent takes.   Somewhat because it can be done completely out of sight and still have enough time to get to you.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

57 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

The issue is the length of stealth I think.   15 seconds or so...

It's more like 8-9 seconds after you stand still for 4+ seconds to prime all of it, while blowing all of your weapon CDs to do it. The only thing it's coming at you with after such a stealth prebuff is warhorn 4, maul, and pig maul.

The bigger issue is the ease of access to how frequently it can pop the smoke field, in conjunction with how every other thing it does is a leap finisher. The smoke field is on a 16s CD with beast mastery, which means every 16s it surely has a leap to use to just disengage and run. The biggest factor that ensures it can access stealth like this anytime it wants, is that when you leave merge mode, the CD for pet swap is completely separate from the actual pet swap. So you can be in merge and swapping in between pets while merged which triggers the merge CD, but as soon as you leave merge, the pet swap can immediately with no CD be used to swap to Smokescale for the smoke field.

Every 16s he gets a short stealth disengage worth 3s. I guarantee you no Soulbeast is stopping in the middle of a combat to try and stack stealth in a stationary position as it would get him killed. What they do is they pop the smoke field and quick single leap through just to get a lead on a disengage, or a quick detarget reposition if they plan to stay in combat. I was being 100% accurate when I compared fighting this build to fighting a DP Daredevil. Only difference is DP Daredevil has less damage, but more cleanse & disengage/mobility.

Eternal Bond and pet swapping should work exactly the way they do now, as Soulbeast needs it and these changes allowed Soulbeast to keep up with the ever-power-creeping areas of other classes. None of this was even in question until sword was buffed, which also enabled warhorn viability, which equated to a new viable weapon side with +2 leap finishers and +1 blast finisher.

Its stealth strength is coming from newfound leaps & blasts. IF the community were to deem this as truly problematic, they can pick & choose what they want to see stay a leap or lose its leap, but that stealth potential is coming from newfound leaps. People should not be pointing at the smokescale smoke field.

But in my honest opinion, I think we'll see a steep drop off in this build's representation within the next week, when players realize it isn't as strong as they currently think it is.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[dead.7638]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 will you do a write up for Mesmer next?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Just now, dead.7638 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 will you do a write up for Mesmer next?

I'll leave that luxury for an actual Mesmer main, tyvm.

[RedAvenged.5217]

idk if the comparison is fair tbh.

cata had 2 seasons at least as god teir. ranger has had a week as one of a few good builds.

chances are this build will be gutted before anyone can play it for a single season.

how is that fair? ele mains of mediocre skill could climb to top 10 with ease and ranger will not be capable of any such climbing

[Arheundel.6451]

15 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i wonder where the Ranger mains are at....

Nowhere?...this build is just another Pvp gimmick not played anywhere else and subsequent nerfs nobody also would care about....the whole ranger class atm is like..."meh", I play it now because I had for years now but...I am a multi-main player and ranger right now is not something I would recommend to anyone..not even my worst enemy. Investing in a ranger in 2023 is truly a waste of precious time, the classes to play moving forward are:

1) Guardian

2) Revenant

3) Necromancer

4) Engineer

 

[Mell.4873]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:20 AM, bq pd.2148 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prelude_Lash

Who uses that....? What build, what youtuber.... Cheese builds don't really count.

Seriously even in PvE no one takes that, Versatile is probably one of the worst Merge stats.
It's really only used for Open World or casual Pugs.

Edit: this comment was right at the start where I never saw the build in PvP

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Terrorhuz.4695]

18 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's a nab smasher. It's a very strong build to play against opponents who have l2p issues that can be exploited. It's a great option to play in solo/duo ranked where there is plenty of silver & low gold to target for fast downstates.

It literally won the last MAT

[Myror.7521]

@Aaron.1294 i would not call this Build op but it surely get too many hard hit skills. Just nerf like the Sword skills dmg wise would be enough to bring it in line with other Builds. How ever i still think GW2 PvP actually do not struggle cause of builds like this soulbeast one. It does cause there is too many AoE spam plus alot blind Spam around rn. This is what the Balance Team realy should look at. But also they should look at the one Mechanic that outlines everything else. For example bladesworns healing Spam plus Aegis Spam and Berserker been able to use full Defence line and still does tons of condition dmg

Edited July 27, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Mell.4873]

Yeah, this seems to be a sword issue. Nerfing that will fix the build.

[Burnfall.9573]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:42 PM, Babylon.8972 said:

Ranger has become new OP FotM, after signet cata is now gone. It can deal ridiculous amount of damage with very few skills invested.

 

Pull + immob + 10k dmg from pig pet combo is not healthy for the game. I think this gotta be taken look at next.

Balance ideas for Anet, how we get ranger in line with other specs?

 

-Guardian Profession one shotting multiple targets-

 

Guardian Profession is Not a DPS Role

 

"When hands are joined, no one can point fingers"

 

Ranger Profession: Role

"Their roles vary as they can set traps to ambush unsuspecting foes, spam a variety of interrupts to neutralize casters, bring in a pet to add additional melee damage, spread conditions with numerous bow attacks and preparations, or simply focus on ranged damage per second with either their bow or reduced cost attack and touch-based skills. Rangers have great survivability, using a bow as their primary weapon will not only keep them at a safe distance"

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide_to_playing_as_a_ranger#:~:text=Their roles vary as they can set traps,bow or reduced cost attack and touch-based skills.

 

Guardian Profession: Role--Support/Healer

"The guardian has a reputation for being the most durable profession in the game—despite their lower initial vitality—due to their virtues and many utility and elite skills that focus on the application of boons, pro-active defense and protection of allies in general."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guardian

 

Power Creep, Bad Design, Toxic Stealth Mechanic, Loss of Profession Identity/Role "it gotta be balanced/nerfed/removed/rework next."

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Who uses that....? What build, what youtuber.... Cheese builds don't really count.

Seriously even in PvE no one takes that, Versatile is probably one of the worst Merge stats.
It's really only used for Open World or casual Pugs.

as you would notice if you did read what i quoted, i was merely answering what the 'pig pull' is, i did not comment on its viability or my personal feelings toward it.

[Mell.4873]

Just now, bq pd.2148 said:

as you would notice if you did read what i quoted, i was merely answering what the 'pig pull' is, i did not comment on its viability or my personal feelings toward it.

Still the source seems to be one streamer and is not very well known. He even admits its not that strong so meh.

[bq pd.2148]

Just now, Mell.4873 said:

Still the source seems to be one streamer and is not very well known. He even admits its not that strong so meh.

one does not need to watch a stream to see that this skill is the only one that would make sense to be called a 'pig pull' , so no i don't even know which streamer you are talking about as i do not watch streams regularly

[Mell.4873]

7 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

one does not need to watch a stream to see that this skill is the only one that would make sense to be called a 'pig pull' , so no i don't even know which streamer you are talking about as i do not watch streams regularly

Again, I have never ever heard of this before today and it seems like a lot of people are in this camp.

[Sandzibar.5134]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

It literally won the last MAT

5 SLB's won the last MAT?

or was it that Boyce hard carried the rest of R55? 

I dont recall ever seeing a 5 ranger comp. Ever.

Do you think we will see that in the next MAT? like we've seen 3-5 ele's in comps for the last year+

 

[Burnfall.9573]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:42 PM, Babylon.8972 said:

Ranger has become new OP FotM, after signet cata is now gone. It can deal ridiculous amount of damage with very few skills invested.

 

Pull + immob + 10k dmg from pig pet combo is not healthy for the game. I think this gotta be taken look at next.

Balance ideas for Anet, how we get ranger in line with other specs?

 

All control effects including mechanic, boons which are Toxic for health of Guild Wars 2 which are to be removed are; 

1. Pull

2, Stun

3. Launch

4. Immobilize

5. Blinded

6. Stealth Mechanic

7. Knockback

8. Alcricity

9. Quickness

10. Effect Stacking

 

As for the remaining....Power Creep is to be blamed for the over increase of damages amongst the  Professions

Edited July 27, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Sandzibar.5134 said:

or was it that Boyce hard carried the rest of R55? 

Other way around actually. R55 cumulatively is able to provide enough pressure to allow Boyce to be able to play a build like that.

That's the truth of it.

1 hour ago, Sandzibar.5134 said:

I dont recall ever seeing a 5 ranger comp. Ever.

Do you think we will see that in the next MAT? like we've seen 3-5 ele's in comps for the last year+

No. It would get instantly ultra-countered when an opposing team logged into a bunch of condi tanks, like Condiserk or Condi Heralds.

Unlike the God Tier 5 OP Signet Catalyst, these Soulbeast builds have plenty of counters. They are like an alternative DP Daredevil. Running 1x in your comp can work, but running 2x or more would be throwing.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, Sandzibar.5134 said:

5 SLB's won the last MAT?

or was it that Boyce hard carried the rest of R55? 

I dont recall ever seeing a 5 ranger comp. Ever.

Do you think we will see that in the next MAT? like we've seen 3-5 ele's in comps for the last year+

Not what I said, not relevant to the topic at hand. The claim was "the build is a noob stomper, it doesn't work against experienced players"; it was played against the best of the best and did wonderfully. Boyce is indeed exceptional, and the build does have a modicum of counterability (we're downplaying the value of stealth, but whatever), but it can be played at the highest level and was played at the highest level.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Sahne.6950]

Noobstomper build....  -> wins the MAT.

Boyce got carried! thats why this build worked!

 

I am getting unlimited giggles right now.

 

Once a day i log into these forums... just to have a little laugh....    Forums never cease to amaze me.....  

see you tomorrow.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Other way around actually. R55 cumulatively is able to provide enough pressure to allow Boyce to be able to play a build like that.

That's the truth of it.

No. It would get instantly ultra-countered when an opposing team logged into a bunch of condi tanks, like Condiserk or Condi Heralds.

Unlike the God Tier 5 OP Signet Catalyst, these Soulbeast builds have plenty of counters. They are like an alternative DP Daredevil. Running 1x in your comp can work, but running 2x or more would be throwing.

Easily countered by who?.. sounds like you are using top 10% arguments to me. Fact is, countering SB has a much higher skill floor than playing SB.. stop excusing this bs. Its FAR worse than power cata in all places but top level (I'll take your word on that)... I killed avg power catas frequently, this SB is not the same at all, far easier to apply its damage+target drops, which are in their own right a free multiplier in making an avg SB far more difficult to counter than an avg power cata.

 

Target drops+high damage is only second to stunlocking, in how obnoxious and low skill floor it is to play, while its way harder to play around it. Can we get into effort vs reward in any of these topics?... rather than just meta status?

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

23 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Easily countered by who?.. sounds like you are using top 10% arguments to me.

And you are using super casual barely play the game arguments. Literally anyone who's played this game avidly for any time frame at all, would inarguably understand why condi tanks hard counter no cleanse power rangers. A team of 5 melee Soulbeasts vs. a bunch of Condiserks & Condi Heralds would get tripled capped so fast, game would be over before it started. If you don't understand why this is, you don't know the game as well as you think you do.

 

23 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

stop excusing this bs. Its FAR worse than power cata in all places

No.

This is all hyperbole agenda to try and forum war ranger into big nerfs because vengeful over ele nerfs.

You know what? I'm not the guy who devised, programmed, and uploaded the patch to nerf your signets. Get over it man.

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524