Story content its not newbie friendly

[Tora.7214]

I invited a couple of friends to play snd they are loving the game so far and want to keep playing it they are also loving the story too much and i don't know how to explain to them that if they want to experience it all they have to cash in approximately 125$ minimun for all the expansions and LS content available.

I know the game being f2p Anet has to make income somehow, but doesn't seem fair having to pay the price of 2 expansions to obtain content that was originally free when it released. 

People are engaged when they tell you x game is very good and f2p, but then feel betrayed and leave when realizing that more than half the game is blocked behind a paywall. Most people might start playing knowing that there have expansions. But have no idea that there is a lot more of very important story locked behind LS wich is also locked behind a not too humble paywall.

Imo LS seasons should be included alongside the expansion content they are related to, not as individual paid content. Other f2p mmo offer similar deals for their in between content. Like SWTOR only asking you to pay once in order to unlock all story released to that point. Or ESO offering you just to buy the latest expansion will will then include all the previous released expansions and episodes.

Not saying gw2 should gift their previous expansions, WoW and FFXIV do that but they are p2p games. But at the very least each expansion should include the whole story package that comes with it, the LS related to that expansion.

[ilMasa.2546]

2 minutes ago, Tora.7214 said:

I invited a couple of friends to play snd they are loving the game so far and want to keep playing it they are also loving the story too much and i don't know how to explain to them that if they want to experience it all they have to cash in approximately 125$ minimun for all the expansions and LS content available.

I know the game being f2p Anet has to make income somehow, but doesn't seem fair having to pay the price of 2 expansions to obtain content that was originally free when it released. 

Yea, tell your friends to wait for sales or holiday bundles

Last year Anet had a Living World Rerun: all the chapters were free to unlock for everyone
Where were you uh? Why didnt you invite your friends when it was the most convenient for them uh?!  

[Tora.7214]

10 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

Yea, tell your friends to wait for sales or holiday bundles

Last year Anet had a Living World Rerun: all the chapters were free to unlock for everyone
Where were you uh? Why didnt you invite your friends when it was the most convenient for them uh?!  

I was not aware of the rerun, even if i did it would not have helped them because they didn't had their gaming pc ready until early this year though and it was i who convinced then to play but they could only just start recently. Im up to date with the story I don't have problems with that, I'm just trying to help "them" stay. Hopefully they do another rerun some day as you said.

Doesn't change the initial issue tho that the more the game expands, they more expensive it becomes for new players to get up to date with everyone else and there is not much consideration for these new players. Mmos that have reached this far in into their runtime usually offer some kind of permanent help for new players to catch up, like the previous mentioned mmos, GW2 offers altmost none besides the ocational festive discounts.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Tora.7214

[Randulf.7614]

It has been mentioned a large number of times over the years. I mean it's fairly standard mmo practice to be honest and much of the content can be bought with in game currency.

Having said that, I don't really disagree it could be streamlined at this point for accessibility. It depends on how much it would affectthem financially at this point

[Luthan.5236]

You got the wrong forums. Should be moved 1 step up into the normal discussions - not the one for SotO. As for the newbie friendliness: I don't think the game is less friendly than others. Regarding to gameplay and how you play the content. Sure: A ton of stuff and you need to use a bit external resources (Wiki) - but I guess that is the same for other MMORPG. Also nice community to ask ingame in the chat.

Access to the paid content: Not a big deal. The HoT + PoF should be not that expensive. And they offer a lot of content. Playing with a subscription would be more expensive. (Unless you really play a lot and get that stuff done sooo fast that with a subscription you might end up cheaper - finishing quickly then canceling the subscription. Or if you only want to play certain parts and omitting a lot.)

The EoD is recent. And they are trying to make more frequent expansions (now SotO) - could get more costly. But players wanted this. They wanted more frequent expansions not only every few years. Subscription-based games usually also have paid expansions where - afaik - you  still have to buy them. (No auto unlocking everything by subscribing.)

The living world story seems to be your main issue? That is where I also see the most room for improvement. Since it is badly advertised. People that know the game a lot - obviously know about this. Newbies that have not done a lot of research befor buying ... might make mistakes. Instead of bundling HoT with PoF I'd have preferred if they had bundled all the living world story after an expansion (or the core game) with the next following expansion. (S2 with HoT, S3 with PoF) ... so you would not have any "gaps" in between when buying all expansions. (Where a new player might then only later notice that he misses something.)

That they had them for free on release: Seems okay. As a bonus to keep the current (then when they were released) playerbase happy. On the other hand for new players adjustments get made - so it gets easier to catch up on older content. (Where older players had to put in more effort to complete everything.)

Personally I'd recomment to get the HoT and PoF bundle. Playing core story and hoping for a discount on season 2. Then progressing to S2 and HoT and waiting for S3 on sale. If you want the raptor you also can get it then with HoT. (Some guides recommend to get the Raptor early.) Works if you want to play in release order. For people that generally are not afraid of skipping stuff - mainly being focused on gameplay - it also might be okay to get EoD if they want the elite specs from there first. I think I got stuff pretty cheap. Even HoT+PoF bundle is on sale sometimes.

[Omega.6801]

1) No one forces them to pay it all at once.
2) Isn't it common practice that you buy a game for the full price and then pay an additional full price for DLC?
3) Mr. and Mrs. ANet have to save the farm.
4) Stuff costs money, I know, it's unfair and getting stuff for free is way better. /s

[kharmin.7683]

14 minutes ago, Omega.6801 said:

1) No one forces them to pay it all at once.

And they can even be bought with gems which would mean not having to pay at all.

[ilMasa.2546]

39 minutes ago, Tora.7214 said:

Doesn't change the initial issue tho that the more the game expands, they more expensive it becomes for new players to get up to date with everyone else and there is not much consideration for these new players. Mmos that have reached this far in into their runtime usually offer some kind of permanent help for new players to catch up, like the previous mentioned mmos, GW2 offers altmost none besides the ocational festive discounts.

What do you even mean?!

- You have the entire basic game FREE,you have litterally things to do for months
- If you liked the basic game then you can invest even more and buy the xpack,and we are talking about years of content

In your opening post you mention other mmorpgs like:

• Swtor?! Where you have to pay for extra skillbars or unlock the ability to hide your head slot
• ESO? Where it's far better to pay for the monthly sub instead of paying up front for each individual thing

Sorry but,imo those are the worst examples for " helping new players catching up"

In addition, I believe that new players pay less than those who bought the expansions on day 1 as the contents age, the price also decreases (bundles)
Then Again "All THE LIVING WORLD SEASON" are FREE content,they become paid content if you miss them.But then again there are SALES,as i told you last year there was a Living World Rerun free for everyone: if you miss a year long event or a sale you gotta wait for the next one or pay for the full price

I dont see any problem here.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[Tora.7214]

15 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

And they can even be bought with gems which would mean not having to pay at all.

You know how much the LS episodes cost with gems?. A single season cost about half the price of a legendary weapon in gold.

The bundles should at least be much more streamlined.: Take the HoT+PoF bundle for example. The bundle doesn't include the LS related to HoT. Imagine a the new player confusion when one moment they are defeating Mordremorth, and the next one they are taking an airship to go fight the literal god of war in the desert.

At the very least they should do like they did when LS1 still wasn't available that they added an npc that retelled with cinematics what happened. That way if new players want to buy the expansions, but are not ready to pay for the LS yet, atleast they have npcs telling them what happened in those LS so they don't go blind to them. Then, if they want to experience that content for themselves, they can save and buy the LS later

Edited August 14, 2023 by Tora.7214

[Crono.4197]

Expansions are already cheaper VS when we bought them. Base game that is now free, costed 60 euros, HoT costed 60 euros, Path of Fire costed 30 euros, End of Dragons costed 30 euros.

From the start by buying HoT + PoF bundle, you skip a lot of money that a lot of us had to pay, plus unlock all the base game features. So you pay 30 euros instead of 150. That's already a huge deal.

You want 30 euro game and everything else for free too? Living Story 1 and 2 are free now, so they can your friends can play base game + 2 seasons + HoT in order, while playing they can also spare some time to get some gold to unlock at least a seasons. Best balance would be a part of it unlocked with real money, a part of it with gold.

9 minutes ago, Tora.7214 said:

You know how much the LS episodes cost with gems?. A single season cost about half the price of a legendary weapon in gold

Do they wanna enjoy the story or do they wanna get legendaries? Legendaries don't even matter unless you wanna show off/you're a hardcore farmer. Most people are fine with Ascended.

A comparison with something that isn't mandatory in the game, doesn't prove anything.

[Shuzuru.3651]

30 minutes ago, Tora.7214 said:

You know how much the LS episodes cost with gems?. A single season cost about half the price of a legendary weapon in gold.

Well, actually, that's wrong. You need 4160 gems to unlock all living world (4 season, assuming no discount), it costs 1454g right now, so about the price of single legendary. While this seems like a lot, you don't have to buy every thing in one go, so you have plenty of time to actually gain that money before you actually need it. 

[XenesisII.1540]

The living story separation cost has always been a complaint, it's just weird how anet handles it. They release it for free to any current players, you just need to log on once in 3 months, and don't even need to own the expansion it's attached to, you can unlock it for whenever you do. But then they want to pass the buck and charge new late coming players to the game, why is the cost being shoved to new players instead of current players? lol. Why isn't the price for living stories included in the expansion cost.

On top of which they've already basically given HoT away for free now combo'd with PoF, or $15/15 if you want to do it evenly, why not just offer an expansion/living story combo too. The weird separation is why there's always complaints, but of course the current players don't care, they get them for free so why would they want to change the system. 🤭

[Ashen.2907]

With very few exceptions ANet has always required players to pay for living world chapters. They did, however, allow plqyers to choose between three payment methods.

A player could choose to pay with time by logging into the game during a specific time period.

A player could choose tons spend real world money.

A player could choose to spend in game currency.

All three require something of a player, it is up to you to choose which suits you.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Crono.4197 said:

Expansions are already cheaper VS when we bought them. Base game that is now free, costed 60 euros, HoT costed 60 euros, Path of Fire costed 30 euros, End of Dragons costed 30 euros.

From the start by buying HoT + PoF bundle, you skip a lot of money that a lot of us had to pay, plus unlock all the base game features. So you pay 30 euros instead of 150. That's already a huge deal.

You want 30 euro game and everything else for free too? Living Story 1 and 2 are free now, so they can your friends can play base game + 2 seasons + HoT in order, while playing they can also spare some time to get some gold to unlock at least a seasons. Best balance would be a part of it unlocked with real money, a part of it with gold.

Do they wanna enjoy the story or do they wanna get legendaries? Legendaries don't even matter unless you wanna show off/you're a hardcore farmer. Most people are fine with Ascended.

A comparison with something that isn't mandatory in the game, doesn't prove anything.

Living story season 2 is not free apart from that you are correct.

59 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

The living story separation cost has always been a complaint, it's just weird how anet handles it. They release it for free to any current players, you just need to log on once in 3 months, and don't even need to own the expansion it's attached to, you can unlock it for whenever you do. But then they want to pass the buck and charge new late coming players to the game, why is the cost being shoved to new players instead of current players? lol. Why isn't the price for living stories included in the expansion cost.

On top of which they've already basically given HoT away for free now combo'd with PoF, or $15/15 if you want to do it evenly, why not just offer an expansion/living story combo too. The weird separation is why there's always complaints, but of course the current players don't care, they get them for free so why would they want to change the system. 🤭

They do offer this its call the complete collection maybe you missed it here it is.

https://buy.guildwars2.com/en-us/complete-collection

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Linken.6345

[leila.7962]

6 hours ago, Tora.7214 said:

i don't know how to explain to them that if they want to experience it all they have to cash in approximately 125$ minimun for all the expansions and LS content available.

It's easy! Tell them it's a 11 years old game, that had many DLC's (living world seasons) and 3 expansions. That should be enough information for them to understand that buying the base game will only grant access to part of the content that was released all these years.

6 hours ago, Tora.7214 said:

I know the game being f2p Anet has to make income somehow, but doesn't seem fair having to pay the price of 2 expansions to obtain content that was originally free when it released.

People had to pay for the core game and each expansion SEPARATELY back when they were released, and no one is complaining that they paid for that. Now, the core game is free , HoT and PoF are sold together and it's cheaper. LSW episodes were free for anyone who logged in when they were released, but everyone else who missed it (by 1 day, by a year or even more time) had to pay for it. That is how they still make some money nowadays. As weird as it sounds, free to play games aren't really free, part of it is free.. maybe they should start using PF2P instead.. partially free to play.

6 hours ago, Tora.7214 said:

Not saying gw2 should gift their previous expansions, WoW and FFXIV do that but they are p2p games. But at the very least each expansion should include the whole story package that comes with it, the LS related to that expansion.

That's their plan for now on with SoTO and future releases.

Edited August 14, 2023 by leila.7962

[Parasite.5389]

honestly i can't agree with this sentiment; I have friend who are new to the game, that have played the entire story so far, and only paid for expansions, everything else has been purchased with gold to gem conversion.
each episode is around 60-75 gold(less if you save enough gold to purchase the season packs), if you're careful about how much you're spending, converting currencies, and take the time to go do meta events, dailies, and world bosses, it all adds up.

[XenesisII.1540]

47 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

They do offer this its call the complete collection maybe you missed it here it is.

https://buy.guildwars2.com/en-us/complete-collection

Yes I know, I meant individually tied, not one fat package.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 hours ago, Tora.7214 said:

Not saying gw2 should gift their previous expansions, WoW and FFXIV do that but they are p2p games. But at the very least each expansion should include the whole story package that comes with it, the LS related to that expansion.

You're comparing a base free to play game with one time payments for expansions to games that require you to buy the latest expansions and pay each month. WoW does give you all the previous expansions for "free", but if you actively play you need to buy each expansion.

[Hsanrb.1570]

I think this conversation has been repeated, but the issues are complicated and there is no simple answer.

1) New players see the massive cost and get turned away, not knowing there are other (sometimes free) options. ANet made LWS free for those who played when they were current, and are charging for those who came late. I think the bigger flag new players want is to have the LWS bundles available on a platform like steam, like the website, where I can spend $10 and get the whole season in a bundle. It's not "I don't want to pay for content" its, "Why do I have to take an extra step with gems and go through the gem store?" and the answer is "We offered this content for free, so we provide a system in which if you like the game you COULD buy this for free and get the same offer we gave older players." The gem conversion system is designed to accommodate both, but it's not articulated in a way that reaches newer players.

2) Does GW2 support skipping content until they can afford OR want to play content? GW2 is one of the few franchises where old content is still RELEVANT content. People still do HoT or PoF content and that content still has valid use in the current ecosystem. Some want to farm the loot to sell to get gold to buy the cosmetics, some actually run the content to use the weapons or to craft ascended/legendary gear. Looking at other MMO's, they drape older content into legacy mode almost from the moment the next expansions gets released, and systems are created to just steamroll the content making the challenge and design turn into an inconvenience. It does enable them to roll older content into the latest expansion, but that is the flaw by making the content outdated that people no longer wish to play through it. GW2 is designed that you can SKIP content you do not want to play, don't want to play something, just don't buy it. The story flow falls apart when you do this, but there are reasons people are complaining about things like Skyscale coming to SotO, or the changes to the rune system... ANet is saying "We are doing a flight expansion, so we need a flight-based mount and Skyscale is the answer... so we need to accommodate another path to getting one." Nothing in GW2 goes "You MUST own the previous expansions to play the current one, we even let you boost a character immediately to 80 when you buy an expansion so you can play it DAY ONE."

3) IF we start offering LWS for free, would our player base be ok with paying money on an annual basis when one story arc closes and another opens? GW2 might be moving to where the players who want to keep up with the story will now be required to go from one payment every few years, to a $30 payment every single year. This does open a can of worms "We used to get so much for free, why are they charging us more for the same experience?" but I think it does mean the issues with previous LWS today will not happen again. ANet understands that frustration, and wants to remove that barrier going forward, without knocking down the ones already in place. Maybe they might be able to afford to, or that the older expansion stories still make money and want to pay for the work that HAS been completed. Maybe this means the quality of post expansion content declines and the player base decides this wasn't worth the effort. Since this change is technically Work-in-progress we have no idea until a full cycle or two whether it was worth charging for. This also might expedite the work because development can continue with structure instead of "We can finish whenever and people will be happy" to "We need to produce solid content worth paying for."

The problem is Guild Wars 2 is a complicated game, with a complicated payment system, for a complicated structure that most other games do not bother attempting to do. Every game (including GW2) has a problem, and they have all tried a different method to resolve the issue of making old content still relevant, without charging for content that the community has moved on from.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Tora.7214 said:

 

Not saying gw2 should gift their previous expansions, WoW and FFXIV do that but they are p2p games. But at the very least each expansion should include the whole story package that comes with it, the LS related to that expansion.

LW story involves areas within LW maps. How do you want to open up stories for free without granting free access to the maps they are played in? You pay for the contenet you want to play, that's about it. I'm not sure there's any hard concept to explain here.

"But hey, anet, pls, I don't want to play your game [longterm] or pay for it, just be a nice charity, let me quickly play through the story and I'm uninstalling right after I'm done with it, deal?" -is this the plan here?

Edited August 14, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Danikat.8537]

I think if I was a new player I'd buy things a bit at a time when I got to them rather than getting everything in one go (unless there was a really good sale on the Elder Dragon Saga Complete Collection).

I'd get HoT + PoF first because I'd want to remove the free account restrictions, but after that I'd buy it in order. Play the personal story and season 1 then convert gold to gems and use real money for any additional gems I need to get Season 2, play through that and HoT then buy Season 3 (again using a mix of gold and gems) and so on. It works out slightly more expensive than buying the Complete Collection - £96.18 vs £86.99 (although that cost is based on not using gold for gems) but it'd take me a very long time to get through all of that (when I was new it took me about 7 months just to get to level 80) so it spreads the cost out and avoids the risk of buying stuff I never actually get around to playing.
 

6 hours ago, Tora.7214 said:

 Or ESO offering you just to buy the latest expansion will will then include all the previous released expansions and episodes.

It doesn't though. If you buy the latest ESO chapter (for almost double the price of a GW2 expansion - £49.99 compared to £25.99) you get all the previous chapters but you do not get the story and dungeon DLC which goes in between, like GW2's Living World.

You get the base game, Morrowind, Summerset, Elseweyr, Greymoor, BlackWood, High Isle and Necrom.
You don't get Orsinium, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Shadows of the Hist, Horns of the Reach, Clockwork City, Dragon Bones, Wolfhunter, Murkmire, Wrathstone, Scalebreaker, Dragonhold, Harrowstorm, Stonethorn, Markarth, Flames of Ambition, Waking Flame, Deadlands, Ascending Tide, Lost Depths, Firesong or Scribes of Fate.

To buy everything would either require a subscription (and that only gets you it as long as you keep on paying) or would cost an additional 26,800 crowns (and yes that's buying the bundles) - £139.98. So to get the entire game is £189.97, compared to £108.98 for GW2.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I think if I was a new player I'd buy things a bit at a time when I got to them rather than getting everything in one go (unless there was a really good sale on the Elder Dragon Saga Complete Collection).

I'd get HoT + PoF first because I'd want to remove the free account restrictions, but after that I'd buy it in order. Play the personal story and season 1 then convert gold to gems and use real money for any additional gems I need to get Season 2, play through that and HoT then buy Season 3 (again using a mix of gold and gems) and so on. It works out slightly more expensive than buying the Complete Collection - £96.18 vs £86.99 (although that cost is based on not using gold for gems) but it'd take me a very long time to get through all of that (when I was new it took me about 7 months just to get to level 80) so it spreads the cost out and avoids the risk of buying stuff I never actually get around to playing.
 

It doesn't though. If you buy the latest ESO chapter (for almost double the price of a GW2 expansion - £49.99 compared to £25.99) you get all the previous chapters but you do not get the story and dungeon DLC which goes in between, like GW2's Living World.

You get the base game, Morrowind, Summerset, Elseweyr, Greymoor, BlackWood, High Isle and Necrom.
You don't get Orsinium, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Shadows of the Hist, Horns of the Reach, Clockwork City, Dragon Bones, Wolfhunter, Murkmire, Wrathstone, Scalebreaker, Dragonhold, Harrowstorm, Stonethorn, Markarth, Flames of Ambition, Waking Flame, Deadlands, Ascending Tide, Lost Depths, Firesong or Scribes of Fate.

To buy everything would either require a subscription (and that only gets you it as long as you keep on paying) or would cost an additional 26,800 crowns (and yes that's buying the bundles) - £139.98. So to get the entire game is £189.97, compared to £108.98 for GW2.

With the new character adventure guide there is no  way getting to 80 take you 7 months nowdays so alot less time to gather gold.

[Danikat.8537]

15 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

With the new character adventure guide there is no  way getting to 80 take you 7 months nowdays so alot less time to gather gold.

It depends on the player. It didn't take everyone that long 11 years ago (I think someone got to level 80 within the first 2 days) and part of the reason it took me so long is by then I had 5 permanent characters and I was splitting my time between them. I agree it can be quicker in terms of hours now, but I don't know it would have taken me that many fewer days, or months.

Also bear in mind that's just the milestone I remember (mainly because it was right before the first Super Adventure Box release and I found it amusing that I got to level 80, got a full set of exotics - best-in-slot at the time - and then spent nearly a month doing something where level and equipment are irrelevant). If your motivation is to play the whole story in order as the OP described you don't need to buy anything until you've finished the personal story and Season 1, and that will be long after getting to level 80.

[babana.7521]

Wait for it, sometime the living story are unlock for free.  

If I am earning USD, I'd pay 125 in a heart beat for the whole deal. 

this latest expansion alone cost me 300 my money. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by babana.7521

[Lunarwolf.5698]

Now that GW2 has been free to play so many years if anyone likes it at the core base game they should honestly look for sales on DLC content with Secrets of the Obscure around the corner maybe might become the goto expansion to get, since it unlocks the skyscale if what I read on it so far is true. It also maybe less spoiler of story content to go through out of sequential order.

I loved core guilds 2 even bought physical copies for friends to enjoy before the base game went free to play. Sadly none of those friends bothered with the game after a week having other interests in either a different genre or other mmo. I tried frantically to get guildies from a dying mmo that was shuttering its doors to migrate over and only 1 among them still plays. Long story short I suck at promoting gw2 as its been like herding free roaming cats and no shortage of evergreen trees for them to climb.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Lunarwolf.5698