RIP Antitoxin

[solemn.9670]

The age of the 11111111 cele harbinger is upon us, and there is now no solace to be found. RIP ability to fight back against semi-competent condi mains. Inb4 dawdler says "but power is broken too" 🙄

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, solemn.9670 said:

Inb4 dawdler says "but power is broken too" 🙄

Only replies are allowed to say that. And everybody failed because power is still meta even with cele, condi is a bonus.

[solemn.9670]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Only replies are allowed to say that. And everybody failed because power is still meta even with cele, condi is a bonus.

Other way around. Do you run ArcDPS? See for yourself if you don't believe me, watch your outgoing damage sources weighted by % after each fight. You'll find condi is always the #1 damage source when running celestial :)) power is just a bonus.

Edit- unless youre running a build that isn't well suited for cele, in which case you'd be better off with a mix of other power dominant stats anyway. Thankfully protection boon is everywhere, power damage is instant and consistent and usually much less spammable/doesn't have an entire game mechanic required to negate it's damage ))cleansing((, so your opponents will have a fighting chance...

Edited August 23, 2023 by solemn.9670

[Zyreva.1078]

1 minute ago, solemn.9670 said:

Other way around. Do you run ArcDPS? See for yourself if you don't believe me, watch your outgoing damage sources weighted by % after each fight. You'll find condi is always the #1 damage source when running celestial :)) power is just a bonus.

That's because condi dmg of the same type is all added up, while power dmg is displayed separately for each skill. If you compare total condi output and total power output, it's usually somewhere inbetween a 60-40 (occasionally up to 30-70) split, with either dmg type potentially on top depending on the build and matchup. But even when condi output ends up higher in a sustained fight, it doesn't neccessarly mean condi is what was contributing to a kill the most, because dmg over time tends to get outhealed more often that burstier power dmg.

[Dawdler.8521]

15 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

Edit- unless youre running a build that isn't well suited for cele, in which case you'd be better off with a mix of other power dominant stats anyway.

🤷‍♂️

So you're saying power is meta unless you happen to run specific elites (ie the three top dogs of cata, willbender and harbinger).

Edited August 23, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[solemn.9670]

3 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

That's because condi dmg of the same type is all added up, while power dmg is displayed separately for each skill. If you compare total condi output and total power output, it's usually somewhere inbetween a 60-40 (occasionally up to 30-70) split, with either dmg type potentially on top depending on the build and matchup. But even when condi output ends up higher in a sustained fight, it doesn't neccessarly mean condi is what was contributing to a kill the most, because dmg over time tends to get outhealed more often that burstier power dmg.

Can attest that condi is usually what breaks people - if it wasn't, fire attunement scepter 1 would've never been nerfed; you get them weak and then finish them with something cheesy that they can't out-sustain because it requires an additional game mechanic (cleanse) which, even on builds with a lot of it, may not be available regardless of if you "did everything right" or not. It's never felt like something I should be proud of for doing against someone else and always felt cheap/unfair when on the other (receiving) end of it, whereas power at least is consistent, direct, can be negated by toughness+protection (resolution: don't make me laugh, there is hardly any uptime for it), usually has easy to notice precast animations, etc ... condi is usually faceroll the keyboard and watch things die because there isn't enough cleanse in the game to deal with i.e. condi mirage (have a blast with that one if you think I'm wrong about it).

In my original post, I mentioned that dawdler would spout off about his usual "unbalanced power skills that we can all agree are unbalanced ARE UNBALANCED, but rolling face on keyboard to get condi kills is skillful and balanced in comparison for some reason" rhetoric. I didn't intend to start a power vs condi conversation, so, yeah I guess in the case of celestial elementalist for example, burn is only doing ~25% of the damage but it's not like celestial condi mirage (celestial condi)   (read it again: celestial condi mirage) isn't dealing primarily condi damage while still taking advantage of the bloated stats. Just one example.

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

🤷‍♂️

So you're saying power is meta unless you happen to run specific elites (ie the three top dogs of cata, willbender and harbinger).

Power should be meta, it's the most fair and fun way to play the game. Condi only exists for bads. Yes, unbalanced power skills are equally unbalanced as unbalanced condi skills ... this is a non-point.

[Junkpile.7439]

Core should be meta. Elite specs only exists for bads.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Junkpile.7439

[RazieL.5684]

9 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

Can attest that condi is usually what breaks people - if it wasn't, fire attunement scepter 1 would've never been nerfed; you get them weak and then finish them with something cheesy that they can't out-sustain because it requires an additional game mechanic (cleanse) which, even on builds with a lot of it, may not be available regardless of if you "did everything right" or not. It's never felt like something I should be proud of for doing against someone else and always felt cheap/unfair when on the other (receiving) end of it, whereas power at least is consistent, direct, can be negated by toughness+protection (resolution: don't make me laugh, there is hardly any uptime for it), usually has easy to notice precast animations, etc ... condi is usually faceroll the keyboard and watch things die because there isn't enough cleanse in the game to deal with i.e. condi mirage (have a blast with that one if you think I'm wrong about it).

In my original post, I mentioned that dawdler would spout off about his usual "unbalanced power skills that we can all agree are unbalanced ARE UNBALANCED, but rolling face on keyboard to get condi kills is skillful and balanced in comparison for some reason" rhetoric. I didn't intend to start a power vs condi conversation, so, yeah I guess in the case of celestial elementalist for example, burn is only doing ~25% of the damage but it's not like celestial condi mirage (celestial condi)   (read it again: celestial condi mirage) isn't dealing primarily condi damage while still taking advantage of the bloated stats. Just one example.

Power should be meta, it's the most fair and fun way to play the game. Condi only exists for bads. Yes, unbalanced power skills are equally unbalanced as unbalanced condi skills ... this is a non-point.

usually i agree with you on most things but this time you said some things that are flat out wrong...

for example: "it requires an additional game mechanic (cleanse)" condi doesn't "require" an additional game mechanic... the same way you can block, evade and invuln a power ability you can also block, evade and invuln a condi ability avoiding it's full damage... the "additional game mechanic" is a weakness to condi abilities which allows you , if you got hit because you didn't dodge, to completely remove the rest of the abilities damage... so your representation of this is absolutely misleading... if you hit me with an ability that does 1000 power damage and i hit you with an ability that does 200-300 power damage and 700-800 condi damage like most condi abilities and you have passive cleanse like many builds in the game do guess who is gonna die first... 

also: "Power should be meta, it's the most fair and fun way to play the game." uh yeah... no... that's simply a no...

[Absurd.2947]

Yes, you can dodge, or block or whatever the application, but you can't dodge a condi tick which, in many cases, can tick harder than a hit from a power skill. 
Then there's the issue of effortless reapplication of condi skills on builds that literally only need to auto attack. 

I mean, does anyone even roam without a sigil of cleansing these days?

[Sahne.6950]

What if i told you that you are supposed to dodge the skill, instead of the conditick? 👀

Edited August 24, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Absurd.2947]

Very smart.

[Dawdler.8521]

14 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Core should be meta. Elite specs only exists for bads.

Since my main is a core condi engineer, I can only conclude I am the best of the worst.

[ArchonWing.9480]

19 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

Other way around. Do you run ArcDPS? See for yourself if you don't believe me, watch your outgoing damage sources weighted by % after each fight.

Yea I see that, but usually only against NPCs.

[Sansar.1302]

Condi is so over the top op in smal scale wvw fights that it almost have ended it. 

On many servers now there is mostly mono blobbing 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

I wouldn't mind having two relics, one being Relic of Anti-Toxin for Outgoing allies, and then another called "Relic of Remedy" for providing additional incoming condition cleansing

Has nothing to do with balance or cele whatever, just that i think both skills had meaningful and interesting design to them, and i'd like to see them both exist.

Edited August 24, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Jski.6180]

Seems much stronger then it was before.

[Polar.8634]

Antitoxin relic gives same cleanse as old rune gave plus it cleanses allies now why rip

[Zephyrus.9680]

15 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Antitoxin relic gives same cleanse as old rune gave plus it cleanses allies now why rip

5s ICD. Not terrible but it doesn't compare at all to the rune effect. 

[Polar.8634]

Just now, Zephyrus.9680 said:

5s ICD. Not terrible but it doesn't compare at all to the rune effect

It is 5 ICD only on allies. You cleanse yourself as usual

[Arheundel.6451]

18 hours ago, Absurd.2947 said:

Yes, you can dodge, or block or whatever the application, but you can't dodge a condi tick which, in many cases, can tick harder than a hit from a power skill. 
Then there's the issue of effortless reapplication of condi skills on builds that literally only need to auto attack. 

I mean, does anyone even roam without a sigil of cleansing these days?

I thought the sigil of cleansing was like a part of the build template itself, every build I make has the sigil automatically so..can it be called sigil if it's literally part of every build?

[Dawdler.8521]

12 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I thought the sigil of cleansing was like a part of the build template itself, every build I make has the sigil automatically so..can it be called sigil if it's literally part of every build?

Stacking sigils was part of every build before cleansing even existed, so sure why not.

[Creativity.3816]

rock paper scissors game.

cele speed runes ele cant die to power build. dies to cele speed rune harbinger. cele harbinger loses to decent player on power build.

circle of life

[solemn.9670]

17 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

It is 5 ICD only on allies. You cleanse yourself as usual

You would think so, but no. 5s ICD on self cleanse antitoxin effect

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

4 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

You would think so, but no. 5s ICD on self cleanse antitoxin effect

Yup. If only people would test the relics out for themselves instead of repeating false “tested” information that was knee jerk posted hours into the expac launch by one individual. 
 

it’s playable, but underwhelming like many of the current relics. Out going cleanse was already the issue in the past in an older iteration of the rune so I’m unsure of the “buff” and then “nerf” to it at the same time when they could have just kept the old incoming tag on it. Or if even that’s too strong make it your cleanses only. 
 

at the very least, in its current form, can we get a visual or UI element that lets me know when the relic is off icd and will trigger next…. This goes for a lot of relics too, like all the 30s cd elite ones when playing, say rev, with shorter than 30s cd elites.

[Polar.8634]

5 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

You would think so, but no. 5s ICD on self cleanse antitoxin effect

Oh that is not cool.