How the new daily system in Wizards Vault reduced my enjoyment of GW2 [Merged]

[DeanBB.4268]

8 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

I just pointed out a worst outcome.. the over all objective of Wizard vault is to engage players in various maps, various events... thats it... I dont like to deviate from that... so u think thats a good idea to implement WV to give u dailies based on ur lvl1 character... queensdale crowded with bots or who knows what 10000 characters farming WV dailies?

Except on my core-only accounts (which I imagine most alt accounts are), the "breakbar, dodge, combo" pops about every other day. So if I do them, I'm in Queensdale and at a PvP golem. Almost all the dailies can be completed in Queensdale, so why go to Orr? Nothing has sent me to Silverwastes or Dry Top.

[DeanBB.4268]

8 hours ago, Aliblabla.3670 said:

Why do players feel the need to do alt parking in the first place? 

I only play one character at a time, typically. The rest are parked at JP chests. Why not?

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Being at level 80 isn't the same as uncovering the whole map or finishing the whole core story, so I don't see the logic of your response here.

Then perhaps you should have read the post i was responding to.

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Then perhaps you should have read the post i was responding to.

I did read it and that's why I responded with what I did.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

I did and that's why I responded with what I did.

Funny how you didn't notice how that post was about how people would stay at level 1 to make their dailies easier.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Funny how you didn't notice how that post was about how people would stay at level 1 to make their dailies easier.

I did notice that and it doesn't change antyhing about how your response to that is faulty. If the complaint is "I don't want to go to maps I didn't already unlock [because story, spoilers, rushing bad or whatever else]" then the exact same reasoning applies to your "well, you're lvl 80 so off you go to every corner of the map you can reach". What's "funny" about it exactly?

Hint: Well, you're lvl 80, so off you go to any expansion corner you can reach, by the exact same logic you used in your initial response I commented on. In other words:

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Being at level 80 isn't the same as uncovering the whole map or finishing the whole core story, so I don't see the logic of your response here.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

22 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Hint: Well, you're lvl 80, so off you go to any expansion corner you can reach, by the exact same logic you used in your initial response I commented on. In other words:

So, you see no difference between accessing areas that are locked behind story and/or masteries with accessing areas that aren't. In that case, forgive me for not responding further to that line of discussion, because it operates on some kind of "logic" that i apparently cannot even grasp.

 

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So, you see no difference between accessing areas that are locked behind story and/or masteries with accessing areas that aren't. In that case, forgive me for not responding further to that line of discussion, because it operates on some kind of "logic" that i apparently cannot even grasp.

I see what the complaint was about and it was about spoilers, characters -or accounts, w/e- not getting objectives in the areas they haven't reached yet. And then you claiming basically "since someone is level 80, they should be k with accessing any map/part of core". This is equally true for expansion content. I don't know what you're failing to understand here, other than your attempt to overfocus on "level 1", which wasn't exactly the complaint here if you read the thread, including the whole comment chain you're referring to. Yes, I don't see much of a difference, because you can also access expansion areas without going through the story. Somehow that wasn't a satisfactory answer to those other complaints though, because people literally complained that "they could overhear some npc saying something or see an event they didn't want to see". So, again, the exact same thing applies to what you wrote and if you cannot grasp that then oh well.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Infusion.7149]

The only FOMO in my opinion is if you did not buy the latest expansion, which means essentially the entire special tab is unavailable. This makes it far less likely for you to obtain the timegated items and skins.

A fully completed weekly is 450 astral acclaim yet the SotO special objectives range from 250 to 500.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The only FOMO in my opinion is if you did not buy the latest expansion, which means essentially the entire special tab is unavailable. This makes it far less likely for you to obtain the timegated items and skins.

Technically true. In practice those skins (all? most?) require you to have Soto (following wiki):
Griffon skin 1k
T6 mats 240 (well, this one surprised me, but I guess that kind of explains why t5 price is so ridiculous, t6 is meant to be a "special bound to soto")
Leggy starter kit 1k
16 weapon skins 2400
3 sanctified armor skins 1125

That summs up to 5765. Specials give 4375.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Hesione.9412]

6 hours ago, Gorani.7205 said:

Of course ANet is using marketing and psychological tricks you could describe as "creating a fear of missing out". With this expansion and the WV the pressure on the player has increased to play more for over all better rewards. But that isn't the problem I see. My biggest issue currently is ANet's unpredictability in what they add & remove from the game. That is very volatile and random and creates a bad feeling when it comes to the WV, AA and future updates.
(e.g. changing Legendary Runes by taking away effects then add those to Relics without any concrete statements on Legendary Relic and its aquisition; removing PvP & WvW potions from the game without a warning; randomly adding new AA rewards to the special tab in conjunction with saying nothing about the state of legacy rewards and changes to the Starter Kit in future seasons; shelving development of WvW Alliances)

Anet has the standard game user agreement:

"Except as otherwise provided in Section 7 or 8 below or prohibited by applicable law (e.g. by the DCD for residents of an EU Member State), we may modify, restrict, or delete any Services, Account, or Name.

We may provide subsequent versions, updates, or modifications, such as security patches, related to any part of the Services that you must accept or install before you will be able to continue to Use the Services. If you do not accept or install such updates, you will be responsible for any defects arising due to the missing update."

See 1.3.2 https://us.ncsoft.com/en-us/legal/ncsoft/user-agreement

By playing the game you are agreeing that they can do this. We may not like modifications, but the user agreement states that we will accept/install them.

[Vayne.8563]

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's both. It's something we do to ourselves, but it's also something devs intentionally aim at to get advantage over us.

Yeah, maybe that's so. But it IS a game. And at some people we have to take responsibility for our own actions. There are days I've skipped that daily before there was the extra option and that was it. I owned the problem. Maybe I'm older, maybe I'm wired differently, but I'm looking at it this way.

The old dailies pretty much gave me 2 gold a day. I don't worry about the achievement points, because eventually they cap out. So that gold is the main reason I did them. Now I get 1 gold, so I'm missing out on that, and the ability to buy stuff. But there's so much AA on offer in the time period, I can (and already have) bought all the gold I can except of course for the 30 AA gold, the mystic coins, the T6 mats, the experience, all the skins, and the laurels already. Even the kit. I'm down to pretty much nothing left except the 1000 gold 1% things and 30 gold. Already. And they've been adding more AA as I go.

What that means is that eventually that 2 gold that I can't get from one daily is worth a small progress toward the one guild I can buy for 30 AA. In other words about 30 silver. I just did the math. I will have everything at the end of the time, and all that will be left for me is that 1 gold for 30 AA. Probably for a couple of weeks. 

When you actually do the math, where does FOMO come in?

Edited September 30, 2023 by Vayne.8563
typo

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Anet has the standard game user agreement:

"Except as otherwise provided in Section 7 or 8 below or prohibited by applicable law (e.g. by the DCD for residents of an EU Member State), we may modify, restrict, or delete any Services, Account, or Name.

We may provide subsequent versions, updates, or modifications, such as security patches, related to any part of the Services that you must accept or install before you will be able to continue to Use the Services. If you do not accept or install such updates, you will be responsible for any defects arising due to the missing update."

See 1.3.2 https://us.ncsoft.com/en-us/legal/ncsoft/user-agreement

By playing the game you are agreeing that they can do this. We may not like modifications, but the user agreement states that we will accept/install them.

End user agreement, what they actually can/cannot do, and what they should/should not do are actually 3 separate things. (something being in EULA does not mean it is legally binding, nor does them being able to do something means doing it would be a good move).

[kiri.1467]

The only real significant fomo in this game is where Anet has removed achievements that have point value without any warning.

[ShadowCatz.8437]

14 minutes ago, kiri.1467 said:

The only real significant fomo in this game is where Anet has removed achievements that have point value without any warning.

How could that example be FOMO?

FOMO means that you are aware about something that you might miss out for some reason and because of this will act in such way to avoid it to happen- it is a way to control behaviour in a certain direction. When you can decide to wait to take an action or decision tomorrow instead of feeling forced to do it now, then you have full agency over your situation.

For games that means that you can leave and return when ever you would like and don't have any regrets about that. 

When ArenaNet have removed something like achievements or a way to get achievements points, then you are already past that stage and can not change your behaviour (as it have already happened). FOMO is about possible action, outcomes and what kind of behaviour that an individual can do, not something that already have happened and when that individual have no agency any more to change its outcome.

I hope you @kiri.1467 can see the difference here for when something is FOMO and when something have already been done like achievements that you can not any more access to work towards is not FOMO (but it leaves the impression that other achievements could also be removed when ever it is possible without any indication from ArenaNet which would be a reason to call it FOMO).

The main tipping point here is that when you have a certain limited knowledge about your options and what kind of impact it could have, how it will change your decision for taking action now or if it can wait which is why FOMO have become a term that have been used in gaming so often.

The main test here is: Can you wait until tomorrow to make your decision or do you have to do it right away (to avoid Fear of Mission Out - FOMO)? For your example about achievements that have been removed it wasn't possible to make such a decision.

[Vayne.8563]

5 hours ago, kiri.1467 said:

The only real significant fomo in this game is where Anet has removed achievements that have point value without any warning.

I don't know, the cash shop thing where they remove stuff you might want is fomo too. People will spend money due to the fear that the thing they want either won't come back, or will come back on at a time when they forget to check the cash shop.

[Imba.9451]

While I do think that the WV is designed in a very fair way, let's not act as if it wasn't created with certain interests in mind. Mainly player retention. Hence why I do get the "FOMO" argument. Acting as if there aren't any hooks that a game tried to catch you with is naive. And acting as if addiction doesn't exist or can be overcome by simply not being a "weak person", as some people in this thread semmed to suggest, is also incredibly far from reality.

Personally, I found myself logging in in the last week just for the dailies. And when I realized that I only did so out of a feeling of obligation, I actually felt bad. Daily login-routines form incredibly fast, without realizing that what you are doing might not even be "fun" anymore. Goes actually beyond gaming and can apply to many habits in life.

 

Quote

 

Fear of missing out isn't something games to do you, it's something we do to ourselves.

If you have FOMO from this, that's absolutely your problem, but FOMO always existed in this game. Always. From day one. This is not an evolution toward fomo.  Don't log in during Halloween, the goodies are gone till next year. Don't check the cash shop, the item that you wanted was on sale and gone, till some random time when it might or might not be available again. Don't participate in a bonus event, you miss the rewards from it.

 

 

 

By that logic, nothing anyone ever does that evokes a reaction from another person is his fault. Yes, on a biological and neural level, stuff happens within us. But let`s not pretend that knowing about the human psyche does not enable a person to get certain reactions out of them. Even if you believe in free will, this hardly matches reality.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Imba.9451

[Vayne.8563]

13 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

While I do think that the WV is designed in a very fair way, let's not act as if it wasn't created with certain interests in mind. Mainly player retention. Hence why I do get the "FOMO" argument. Acting as if there aren't any hooks that a game tried to catch you with is naive. And acting as if addiction doesn't exist or can be overcome by simply not being a "weak person", as some people in this thread semmed to suggest, is also incredibly far from reality.

Personally, I found myself logging in in the last week just for the dailies. And when I realized that I only did so out of a feeling of obligation, I actually felt bad. Daily login-routines form incredibly fast, without realizing that what you are doing might not even be "fun" anymore. Goes actually beyond gaming and can apply to many habits in life.

 

 

 

By that logic, nothing anyone ever does that evokes a reaction from another person is his fault. Yes, on a biological and neural level, stuff happens within us. But let`s not pretend that knowing about the human psyche does not enable a person to get certain reactions out of them. Even if you believe in free will, this hardly matches reality.

This doesn't change a word I've said. People try to manipulate people all the time. You can be aware of it and compensate. Getting angry is not an issue, because everyone gets angry. Not everyone strikes out on rage though. Taking responsibility for your actions is what we all should be aiming for. Blaming circumstance when we do the wrong thing is pretty prevalent, but it's not ideal.  

 

[Imba.9451]

6 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

This doesn't change a word I've said. People try to manipulate people all the time. You can be aware of it and compensate. Getting angry is not an issue, because everyone gets angry. Not everyone strikes out on rage though. Taking responsibility for your actions is what we all should be aiming for. Blaming circumstance when we do the wrong thing is pretty prevalent, but it's not ideal.  

 

Why not both?

Just because something happens "all the time" doesn't mean we have to accept that. Because the way I read this, it can also be interpreted as "Be stoic, don't give a kitten and move on." It`s possible to aknowledge my responsibility to look my doors, so I do not get robed, while also calling out the crooked morals of people who break into other peoples houses. And yes, I get it, what I just described is legally forbidden while Anet is in their right to implant even the worst mobile crap if they wanted to, I just wanted to illustrate the point.

Also, again, let's not act if our personal perception of the world matches that of everyone else. People are built different. Literally. Neurological differences make different people way more suceptible to certain things than others.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Imba.9451

[Hadi.2430]

On 9/28/2023 at 2:13 AM, Futeko.9405 said:

I feel the current direction spearheaded by the Wizard's Vault is making the game feel more and more like a mobile game experience, and I heavily dislike that.

Mobile games work by hooking you using (1) small reward cycles with daily/weekly resets so you feel compelled to log in and complete tasks every day to get your rewards, and (2) Fear Of Missing Out syndrome - "if you don't get it now, it'll be unavailable/more expensive later and/or everyone else will be ahead of you and you'll never catch up to them".

This is all based on addiction mechanisms and not on what makes a game fun or enjoyable. You're completing tasks because you "need" your rewards, not because the task and/or the rewards are fun. In other words, the fun over time invested ratio is very small and you're playing more because you feel you "have to" rather than because you want to.

That is my issue with the changed system:

• I feel forced to get as much Astral Acclaim as I can, because (1) there are exclusive rewards you can only get with AA, (2) those rewards will disappear or get more expensive later, and (3) you can only get so much AA per cycle.
  • It means I feel like I'll miss out on rewards I don't unlock in the current cycle and I'll never be able to catch up on them, because next cycle there will be new rewards, and the amount of AA one can get will still be limited.
• I feel forced to complete content I was not planning to complete (yet), because some dailies/weeklies/specials lead me to zones I have not yet reached in the story.
  • Most importantly, I feel forced to complete the current content in SOTO now, even though I'm not yet done with the story up to there, because of the Specials WV tab. Combined with my limited game time and the fact the WV tasks have me perform tasks e.g. in Cantha when I'm barely starting LW4, I'm spending most of my time rushing content out of order because of the time-limited nature of WV rewards.
• I feel channeled into a specific game mode as opposed to having the choice of how to spend my time for dailies.
  • Meaning, I can't choose to complete e.g. two dailies from the PvE list and one from the WvW list. I need to complete my whole list, meaning I can't take the risk of having a WvW daily I can't complete in reasonable time (or ever if I'm unlucky) so I'm stuck with a 100% PvE list that I don't necessarily enjoy, but know I can complete regardless of the time of the day I log in.

None of the above existed with the previous daily system:

• I could miss log-in rewards or dailies without feeling I was missing content to which I'd never be able to catch up.
  • Log-in rewards were basically gold in various forms. Not logging in meant missing on some gold, and you can always "catch up" on gold.
  • Dailies meant gold and AP, and that was it. And the AP was (and still is) capped to a certain amount, so even if you miss some days you'll still be able to get AP-capped someday.
  • With AA, you get time-limited rewards. Miss a log-in/daily/weekly/special = miss on AA = miss on rewards that are exclusive to AA and that you can't buy with gold.
    • (I know you can miss some AA and still get every exclusive reward, with the rest just being "gold" or resources you can get with gold. But with the extra step of getting AA -> buying rewards instead of getting fixed rewards, it's much less intuitive what you're going to miss if you miss a daily/weekly/special, because you miss out on an exclusive currency, not on a specific reward).
• There was nothing exclusive/time-limited forcing me to complete specific content.
  • I could complete the story at my leisure, in the order I meant to complete it. I could spend a year catching up on the story up to the new expansion and I would not be penalized for it by missing out on some exclusive rewards/currency.
  • Now I'm essentially forced to either complete the new content as it gets released or miss out on exclusive AA from the Special tab.
• I could choose which 3 dailies to complete out of a list of 12 across PvE, PvP and WvW.
  • Now, I need to complete 3 dailies out of 4, and I need to choose from which mode(s) they are taken. I can't log in and do what I feel like doing that day.
  • And the extra daily task/two weekly tasks still reward AA, so I still have an incentive to complete those even if I already got my daily/weekly meta reward. As such I don't feel I need to complete 3 dailies and 6 weeklies, but 4 dailies and 8 weeklies.
    • As a result, I'm spending much more time per week doing dailies/weeklies than before - tasks I feel "forced" to do lest I miss out on exclusive currency.

So I feel like the new system is moving towards those mobile games addiction-based systems that have you invest a good chunk of your daily time into the game by dangling the FOMO carrot in front of you, instead of just producing/encouraging fun gameplay and content.

Yes, the rewards from the WV are much better than the previous dailies/log-in system. But no, I'm not having fun with it. After over a month of living with that new system, I still miss the old one, which I felt matched the base design philosophy of GW2 for all the reasons above.

I feel those issues could be solved with limited changes:

• Dispel the FOMO-feeling by ensuring AA can get you exclusive rewards earlier/faster, with the legacy tab using other currencies so you never "get behind" on AA.
  • For example, have legacy rewards also offered for spirit shards, gold, materials, etc.
  • That way, even if you miss out on AA, you know you'll still be able to get the exclusive rewards through other means. You won't feel that if you miss on 1000 AA, that's 1000 AA you'll never get back, and a reward you'll never be able to buy because new rewards for AA are constantly getting added.
• Go back to offering all PvE, PvP and WvW dailies/weeklies to everyone, but only award AA for the first 4 dailies/6 weeklies.
  • Further tasks can be completed for non-AA rewards (like a chest with materials, unidentified gear, etc.) like the previous system.
  • That way, you actually have a choice in what you want to complete on a specific day/week, and you can more easily skip what you don't like and/or don't have access to.
• (Bonus) Gate the tasks behind what the account has unlocked so players do not feel forced to complete content they have not yet unlocked.
  • For instance, do not offer Cantha dailies if the account has not yet reached the story step giving access to that zone/mastery.
  • The impact of that issue would be much lessened by the above point though - if you have more choices to complete the meta daily/weekly, and further dailies/weeklies do not give you AA, you can more easily skip e.g. Cantha tasks if you aren't there yet in the story.
    • This however would not protect you from days/weeks where a high number of tasks take place in Cantha. Rarer and less of a problem, but still some good added value if that can be implemented.

Right now, I'm tiring out of the game at an extremely accelerated rate compared to before SOTO and the new system because of that increased daily/weekly involvement the game "requires". As such, I hope the next cycle in 40 days will address those issues.

You feel forced and im here capping points 3 times without even thinking of looking at the system and doing those achievements. Forced indeed

[Juan.6124]

Only gw2 players can manage to feel fomo in a system where special items are forever available in the legacy tab. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by DirtyDan.4759

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Why not both?

Just because something happens "all the time" doesn't mean we have to accept that. Because the way I read this, it can also be interpreted as "Be stoic, don't give a kitten and move on." It`s possible to aknowledge my responsibility to look my doors, so I do not get robed, while also calling out the crooked morals of people who break into other peoples houses. And yes, I get it, what I just described is legally forbidden while Anet is in their right to implant even the worst mobile crap if they wanted to, I just wanted to illustrate the point.

Also, again, let's not act if our personal perception of the world matches that of everyone else. People are built different. Literally. Neurological differences make different people way more suceptible to certain things than others.

They way you interpret it is wrong.  It's much simpler than that.

Unless you think you're going to overcome misinformation, advertising, psychology, change human nature, alter the people around you, and basically rewrite everything that exists, you're going to have to build up some defenses just to live your life. You're going to have to learn to question advertising if you want to have some semblence of control. You're going to have to learn to fact check and not take everything you hear at face value.

I would love to change the world. It would be fantastic. Businesses can stop advertising and give up their power. Politicians can stop lying. And people won't make games with FOMO. It's possible that will happen. But the reality is we live in a world where that is happening all day every day all around us.

By all means, try to change it if you think you can make a difference, but within the context of that taking time and probably not happening at all, learn to take a bit of personal responsibility. Game makers are always going to add things to involve you in their games. Always. Because there's so much competition and everyone else is doing it.

Anet did this in the best way possible. They gave us a ton of currency we can get. They gave up options, particularly now, on how we get that currency, they've added currency, they don't charge real money and they'll have a legeacy vault for cosmetics.

If you're going to rail against change, by all means do so, but this isn't the change to rail against. This is an example of it being done right.

[kiri.1467]

9 hours ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

How could that example be FOMO?

*snip*

(but it leaves the impression that other achievements could also be removed when ever it is possible without any indication from ArenaNet which would be a reason to call it FOMO).

 

Answered your own question.

The WV isn't FOMO unless you're a diehard completionist, then my example is 100% relevant because of what you said in the above quote.

But that doesn't bother me any more. Once life got in the way and I had to take a break from GW2, it was actually quite freeing. Not worth stressing that much over a game, otherwise it's just not fun anymore. I like the game, but that's what it is - a game.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, DirtyDan.4759 said:

Only gw2 players can manage to feel fomo in a system where special items are forever available in the legacy tab. 

Well, it's different than what we had before, people must find something to complain about even if the issue is largely what noone complained about in the previous system.

[Cyninja.2954]

24 minutes ago, kiri.1467 said:

 

Answered your own question.

The WV isn't FOMO unless you're a diehard completionist, then my example is 100% relevant because of what you said in the above quote.

But that doesn't bother me any more. Once life got in the way and I had to take a break from GW2, it was actually quite freeing. Not worth stressing that much over a game, otherwise it's just not fun anymore. I like the game, but that's what it is - a game.

First off, most (I'm not sure if all by now) achievements which are unavailable have been either made available or have had their achievement points removed. This is an approach the studio has been following for a few years now and it absolutely holds true for new content from the last few years.

The biggest FOMO aspect here is getting things done before maps get emptier, content becomes less active or in some rare cases changes are made to the content. Even most legacy achievements are available again ever since season 1 was reintroduced.

The only achievements which are difficult to catch up to are the seasonal yearly achievements, given the time frame until a player reaches the achievement point cap.

As to the wizard vault, FOMO might kick in for players which need to have their rewards immediately. That is certainly a phenomenon. In reality though, and with some basic math, players should have been aware that there is a significant amount of extra astral acclaim available in regards to getting all the rewards. Completing the weeklies, and not even every week, is actually sufficient to get all the rewards before they cycle out into the legacy vault (which too is a mechanic to prevent unreasonable FOMO). Behavior here might adapt once 1-2 cycles of rewards are completed and players have adapted their behavior. With 4-5 weeks to go, many semi active players are at the stage of getting the 30 point gold bags already with 1,300 points saved up with lack of any other rewards.

So while individual behavior might cause players unreasonable FOMO, that's most certainly not rooted in the design of the system (which to repeat: offers more than enough currency to get all rewards and then some AND does not remove rewards).

Edited September 30, 2023 by Cyninja.2954