Don't Nerf Us For The Elitists

[Echostorm.9143]

Once again the cry is going out from a tiny percent of the population to NERF.  I hope that Anet will trust their telemetry over the rants of elitists and tryhards and not nerf specs in response to a handful of people who were able to, either with great practice or great macros, get a bench under conditions that rarely, if ever exist in the actual game.  95% of players cannot get even half of these numbers in game and punishing them with nerfs because of the cries of a fraction of a percent of players is kitten.  If you feel like it's too easy for you then switch to Minstrels but don't punish regular gamers who are just here to have fun not to "Git Gud". 

 

 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

You know switching to Minstrels is not going to make the game harder. It's arguably going to make the game easier because you're very less likely to die but who wants to waste time killing a mob in 10 sec when you can do it in 1 ?

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

Once again the cry is going out from a tiny percent of the population to NERF.  I hope that Anet will trust their telemetry over the rants of elitists and tryhards and not nerf specs in response to a handful of people who were able to, either with great practice or great macros, get a bench under conditions that rarely, if ever exist in the actual game.  95% of players cannot get even half of these numbers in game and punishing them with nerfs because of the cries of a fraction of a percent of players is kitten.  If you feel like it's too easy for you then switch to Minstrels but don't punish regular gamers who are just here to have fun not to "Git Gud". 

 

 

Once again we face the ridiculous choice between perpetually buffing everything, thereby trivializing the game for those evil "tryhards" or leaving "insert your favorite class here" in an absurdly overperforming state so that the bottom 10% can faceroll through the game while watching Netflix.  Or we could try for option three: appropriately balancing between classes based upon the standard set by the content.  Yes, I think that will do nicely.

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Or we could try for option three: appropriately balancing between classes based upon the standard set by the content. 

True, balance everything for WvW since that is the content that actually need class balancing - PvE can be balanced by the PvE content itself and PvP is completely separate gearwise already.

[Sansar.1302]

4 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

True, balance everything for WvW since that is the content that actually need class balancing - PvE can be balanced by the PvE content itself and PvP is completely separate gearwise already.

Not often I agree with you but this is so spot on that i don't think it can be said better. 

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

Not often I agree with you but this is so spot on that i don't think it can be said better. 

Unfortunately no, this is not spot on and balance isn't good because, historically, the devs followed this line of thinking. PvE lack some of the competitives modes elements which mean that if you balance perfectly for PvP, PvE balance is screwed. The history of the necromancer's balance is the perfect example of the fact that such reasoning in balance just don't work in GW2. Simply put:

• Mobs don't have an endurance bar and thus they don't dodge, they just shrug when they got weakness.
• Mobs seldom heal themself they could careless about poison -33% incoming heal.
• Mobs don't have cool down to increase, chill don't bother them.
• Anything with a breakbar can ignore movement impairing effects, blind... etc.
• Boon hate just don't have as much impact on mobs than it does on players.
• Apart from a few old foes, projectile hate isn't even close to impact mobs as much as player.
• No mob ever cared about unblockable.
• ... etc.

Expecting the PvE content to include all these effects in the balancing is unrealistic at this point. There is just way to much things that have great "power" in competitive mode yet amount to close to nothing in PvE.

[Stx.4857]

Some specs are massively overperforming due to the implementation of weaponmaster training.  Balancing these specs has nothing to do with elitists, it’s just healthy game design.  This doesn’t just affect raiders either, your character actually deals damage in open world too, and everyone should feel good about the spec they choose to play.  

[Buran.3796]

14 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

True, balance everything for WvW since that is the content that actually need class balancing - PvE can be balanced by the PvE content itself and PvP is completely separate gearwise already.

   The real question  is for which kind of gameplay in WvW: dueling? solo roaming? havok groups? 15 v 15 guild skirmishes? zerg vs zerg? late night incursions vs empty servers? Because every scenary   has different optimal specs and builds, and finding out balance for everything is nigh impossible.

   Doesn't matter also due won't happen. But understanding the dificulty of the task helps to notice why won't work.

[Widebody.5071]

WvW is the reason the game is in the state it's in, one of constant flux where balance is concerned.

[draxynnic.3719]

17 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

True, balance everything for WvW since that is the content that actually need class balancing - PvE can be balanced by the PvE content itself and PvP is completely separate gearwise already.

That's how revenant hammer was made into garbage in every other game mode. WvW might share gear with PvE, but is otherwise still a very different game mode with different conditions and priorities - skills are split between PvE, PvP, and WvW, with the latter two being more likely to be similar, for a reason.

To the OP: The elitists understand that benchmarks aren't a real judge of power - they're more of a target for people practicing the build against a golem. It's the balance team that seems to have missed that memo. Granted, an overly high benchmark can be an indication, but there does need to be a sanity check on how achievable that benchmark really is.

[Widebody.5071]

That may be true about the benchmarks and all, but there's been a few folks from the wvw community coming in and complaining about op class strength and viability in the pve game mode. They gave no particular reasons just that they were too strong. Most players wouldn't hate on other classes like that in pve, seeing that pve metas are usually a team events where everyone just jump in and go at it unless there's a sequence to follow as in the wurms.

So yes... wvw changes to affect pve when the players can't get what they one way they use a back door in order to gain their desires. Nothing new it's been happening for close 10 years at least. If anyone haven't notice it's a choice they made to ignore these changes, they don't come to the forums much or they haven't been around that long.

The e-sports teams were elites, see how that turned out.

[maxwelgm.4315]

On 9/6/2023 at 6:27 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Unfortunately no, this is not spot on and balance isn't good because, historically, the devs followed this line of thinking. PvE lack some of the competitives modes elements which mean that if you balance perfectly for PvP, PvE balance is screwed. The history of the necromancer's balance is the perfect example of the fact that such reasoning in balance just don't work in GW2. Simply put:

• Mobs don't have an endurance bar and thus they don't dodge, they just shrug when they got weakness.
• Mobs seldom heal themself they could careless about poison -33% incoming heal.
• Mobs don't have cool down to increase, chill don't bother them.
• Anything with a breakbar can ignore movement impairing effects, blind... etc.
• Boon hate just don't have as much impact on mobs than it does on players.
• Apart from a few old foes, projectile hate isn't even close to impact mobs as much as player.
• No mob ever cared about unblockable.
• ... etc.

Expecting the PvE content to include all these effects in the balancing is unrealistic at this point. There is just way to much things that have great "power" in competitive mode yet amount to close to nothing in PvE.

This is funny to read because it made me think of how large the contrast in GW2 is with respect to GW1. In that game mobs actually had the same build structure and susceptibility to statuses/interrupts as you, only with added "Monster effects" and "Monster Skills" augmenting their capabilities. But the levels, stats and skills were exactly as our own which made combat really strategic no matter if it was PvE or not. I guess this wouldn't fit so much in an action RPG proper like GW2 but inheriting certain design quirks from GW1 must have hurt the current state as well. Not that this will change, it's been a decade, but yeah you can see where some of the gap comes from in between PvP and PvE.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:50 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's how revenant hammer was made into garbage in every other game mode. WvW might share gear with PvE, but is otherwise still a very different game mode with different conditions and priorities - skills are split between PvE, PvP, and WvW, with the latter two being more likely to be similar, for a reason.

To the OP: The elitists understand that benchmarks aren't a real judge of power - they're more of a target for people practicing the build against a golem. It's the balance team that seems to have missed that memo. Granted, an overly high benchmark can be an indication, but there does need to be a sanity check on how achievable that benchmark really is.

I'm not sure why this is even a debate.  If a class was performing well at 40k benchmark and you increase it to 50k, it's going to overperform.  It doesn't matter that in actual fights you don't hit benchmark.  If it was balanced under the previous condition and you massively buff it, it's now overperforming.  Pretty basic stuff.

What we should be discussing is how they go about balancing the things that changed to create that problem.  For example, if sword/warhorn ele builds are dealing too much damage is nerfing sword and/or warhorn the answer?  What does that mean for builds that use these weapons individually like sword/dagger?  If they were fine then nerfing sword will make them potentially undertuned.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm not sure why this is even a debate.  If a class was performing well at 40k benchmark and you increase it to 50k, it's going to overperform.  It doesn't matter that in actual fights you don't hit benchmark.  If it was balanced under the previous condition and you massively buff it, it's now overperforming.  Pretty basic stuff.

What we should be discussing is how they go about balancing the things that changed to create that problem.  For example, if sword/warhorn ele builds are dealing too much damage is nerfing sword and/or warhorn the answer?  What does that mean for builds that use these weapons individually like sword/dagger?  If they were fine then nerfing sword will make them potentially undertuned.

I presume you're not referring to the first half of my post there?

Yeah, the scourge benchmark is probably too high, given that condi scourge doesn't exactly have a reputation for being difficult to play. The broad point, though, is that if Build A has a particular benchmark in ideal conditions with a complex rotation that's easily disrupted by mechanics and the build can be downed by a stiff breeze, it probably deserves a higher benchmark than a build that can achieve that benchmark facerolling the keyboard at 1200 range as long as it has boons and shrugs off anything short of an instant kill mechanic. (Not something I'm accusing of actually being that easy, just making the contrast as extreme as it can be.) Benchmarks are obviously a data point, but if a build with a high benchmark has a low play rate outside of speedrunners, there's probably a reason.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

12 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

What we should be discussing is how they go about balancing the things that changed to create that problem.  For example, if sword/warhorn ele builds are dealing too much damage is nerfing sword and/or warhorn the answer?  What does that mean for builds that use these weapons individually like sword/dagger?  If they were fine then nerfing sword will make them potentially undertuned.

Yeah, they seem to have very little regard to how they balance classes. It's like they only look at the meta builds and balance around them. This happened to firebrand. Condi FB was a little over-tuned for their design, but only when using axe/torch. Every other weapon set was fine or even a bit under-tuned. So, what did they do? They nerfed Virtue of Justice, reducing all FB damage, and then buffed the axe trait to compensate. So now every other weapon set is noticeably under-tuned, except the one that was a problem. I don't even have words for how little they seem to understand their own classes or respect their build diversity.

[Sweetbread.3678]

On 9/7/2023 at 2:14 AM, Widebody.5071 said:

That may be true about the benchmarks and all, but there's been a few folks from the wvw community coming in and complaining about op class strength and viability in the pve game mode. They gave no particular reasons just that they were too strong. Most players wouldn't hate on other classes like that in pve, seeing that pve metas are usually a team events where everyone just jump in and go at it unless there's a sequence to follow as in the wurms.

It isn't "hating" to want the game tuned in a logical manner and not power crept into infinity. It's at the point where they would basically need to more than double the health of every enemy before at least PoF to keep up.

I don't understand why people take nerfs to their class so personally; it's like they're completely incapable of seeing that their class is just one part of a whole ecosystem. It's basically the MMO equivalent of NIMBYism and it's just as myopic and counterproductive as it is in real life.

[oCynder.5136]

But elitist isn't the problem that we have high dps numbers. It's also the people who complained something is too "OP" because they don't know how to play against a class and thus that class gets nerfed for no apparent reason.

Edited September 9, 2023 by oCynder.5136

[xellink.7568]

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I presume you're not referring to the first half of my post there?

Yeah, the scourge benchmark is probably too high, given that condi scourge doesn't exactly have a reputation for being difficult to play. The broad point, though, is that if Build A has a particular benchmark in ideal conditions with a complex rotation that's easily disrupted by mechanics and the build can be downed by a stiff breeze, it probably deserves a higher benchmark than a build that can achieve that benchmark facerolling the keyboard at 1200 range as long as it has boons and shrugs off anything short of an instant kill mechanic. (Not something I'm accusing of actually being that easy, just making the contrast as extreme as it can be.) Benchmarks are obviously a data point, but if a build with a high benchmark has a low play rate outside of speedrunners, there's probably a reason.

Charr has a low play rate.

[draxynnic.3719]

Just now, xellink.7568 said:

Charr has a low play rate.

Race isn't a balance factor.

...but it might help if some of the graphics glitches with charr were addressed. So tired of floating backpieces.

[Widebody.5071]

4 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

It isn't "hating" to want the game tuned in a logical manner and not power crept into infinity. It's at the point where they would basically need to more than double the health of every enemy before at least PoF to keep up.

I don't understand why people take nerfs to their class so personally; it's like they're completely incapable of seeing that their class is just one part of a whole ecosystem. It's basically the MMO equivalent of NIMBYism and it's just as myopic and counterproductive as it is in real life.

My friend I don't know where you've been but warriors been getting shitted on since 2013 maybe earlier. Due mostly to emasculated people coming on the forums and moaning and  groaning about warriors are too this and warriors are too that so nerf them. I'm not taking anything personal, just pointing out the reality in the game.

If you want to understand why things are happening why don't you ask the legion of folks who always come here crying about warrior, why do they need a crutch to faceoff with warriors even after most their original mechanics where made null. They speak pretty eloquently so I'm pretty sure you can hash things out... They kind of mimic your use of verbiage.🤨                                                                                               

[Widebody.5071]

On 9/5/2023 at 10:57 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

True, balance everything for WvW since that is the content that actually need class balancing - PvE can be balanced by the PvE content itself and PvP is completely separate gearwise already.

But how can they balance when as soon as certain people lose a fight they start crying over some made up injustice or imagined op skill? It's the players that's driving all the kooky stuff that's happening in the game. They're not elite (such a bad term so someone can feel important) they're just self-centered people who comes to the forums causing what they perceive to be grief for others, that's their milk and honey. It can't be anything else because they go out of their way to stir the crap. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Widebody.5071

[Sweetbread.3678]

10 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said:

My friend I don't know where you've been but warriors been getting shitted on since 2013 maybe earlier. Due mostly to emasculated people coming on the forums and moaning and  groaning about warriors are too this and warriors are too that so nerf them. I'm not taking anything personal, just pointing out the reality in the game.

Yeah that seems like a real objective, non-emotional take of the situation.

[Widebody.5071]

5 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Yeah that seems like a real objective, non-emotional take of the situation.

For sure my friend!!! I thought you'll appreciate a frank and honest opinion about how people feel about the way their class has been sabotaged and treated over the years.  Now hear me though, warriors still has some fight left in them which is a testament to the players that don't abandon the class. Maybe the complainers from the other classes should change to warrior since they can't seem fiqure out warriors counter-play style or git gud.

But I must say you're feedback is appreciated.

 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

In my opinion it is a very big mistake on anets part that they keep increasing the healthpool of newer content in the game. High dps is sort of needed to make encounters such as HTCM, ko cm, silent surf, dagda, febe and Soto open world enjoyable with their current healthpool. Meanwhile 95% of the mobs in the core maps can be killed by simply running past then while casting some ranged autoattacks. There's just no way to properly balance dps/healthpool if they keep changing the healthpool of enemies. 

Anet really needs to balance out the healthpool of enemy mobs in their game in order to properly balance the dps output. 

The current state of PvE is completely fcked with the recent dps increase. 95% of all content has become braindead easy. The powerbudget of classes is also completely fcked with most of the top builds being easy to play, lots of utility, lots of surviveability, ranged and alot of extra Boons. I wish Anet would add interesting boss mechanics+extra dps to content instead of buffing their healthpool. Unfortunately i highly doubt Anet will ever fix the issues underlining the dps output balance. 

[LadyKitty.6120]

Some points from a buildcrafter. 

1. The massive DPS boosts from weaponmaster training allowing the combos of best weapons with the specs with highest multipliers causes other specs and weapons to be inferior choices by a good margin and that is a massive issue for versatility unless either all the inferior specs and weapons are boosted to same level (massive work) or offending specs and weapons are nerfed to a healthier baseline (and inferior weapons buffed).

2. The nerfs aren't required just because some tryhards bench superhard. If you actually do some spreadsheet gaming, you could easily see that some elite spec weapons are massively overtuned compared to others and previously they were kept in check by the spec itself being weaker. (for ex. ele's warhorn and Tempest) And while some builds doing insane damage means that even people of lower skill level would do good damage on them, it is kinda a problem since those people (as well as the more skilled players) are easily locked into playing just those few builds.

Currently the best builds are simply so overtuned that playing any of the previously semi-viable off-meta builds would count as griefing in any half-decent squad even if you played the off-meta build at 100% proficiency. That and the relic fiasko pretty much kill the point of buildcrafting and running non-meta weapon+spec combos atm.