Why is there a huge imbalance of classes who can create AOE denial via utilities?

[Smoosh.2718]

When you look through the list of classes you can note that almost all the classes can create AOE denial effects via utilities.

(When I refer to utility AOE denial I am talking about utilities you play on the floor that last X seconds and cause a damaging or negative effect that forces you to leave an area.)

• Mesmer: Wells
• Guardian: Spirits, Traps
• Necromance: Wells, Punishments, Spectral
• Revenant: Renegade
• Ranger: Traps
• Engineer: Wells, Exceeds, Turrets, kits
• Thief: Wells, Preperations
• Elementalist: None
• Warrior: None

I understand that Elementalist does not have any AOE utilities due to the factor that almost all of its attacks are a form of AOE causing denial effects.

Which then leaves only one class that has no AOE deinal utilities and next to no AOE denial skills:

Warrior

Please can this imbalance of utilities be looked into, We currently have one class who has utilities that all do the same thing: (Physical and Rage, basically the same skill types), (Stances and Meditations are almost on the same level on what they do.) and then we have Armaments a mash up of stance and something else. Where are the AOE denial skills? Because Id hardly call Longbow's Arcing Arrow and Torches Flames of War it.

[Beddo.1907]

Warrior is vanilla ice cream of classes.
It doesn't have very pronounced class mechanic, which causes the rest of the kit to follow similar rules. As a result the utilities are self centered effects and physical attacks, except for banners.
I doubt there is much to be done with that as a base, without making some skills basically something that doesn't fit into the skill type.

[Leo G.4501]

How are Guardian Spirits area denial but Ele Glyph of Storms isn't?  And we used to have Dragon's Tooth as an "area deterrent" but now it's just a spicier Flame Strike with a blast finisher.

As far as Warrior having area denial, I'd say they should be a walking area of denial using CC and pumping out damage. Really could boost their ability to do damage with CCs (it feels nice in PvE) and improve on their ability to strip stability quickly.

That being said, if they could somehow alter Meditations to add useful AoE effects at your feet that remain at the location (either beneficial for your allies or detrimental to foes OR BOTH) and I dunno, make Winds of Disenchantment great again. If you *have* to equalize all utility across all professions and destroy uniqueness in the process, at the very least, Spell Breaker is your candidate for Warrior here.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Warrior is vanilla ice cream of classes.

Coincidentally, this analogy also works with natural Vanilla, not just the widespread artificial Vanillin flavour.

Vanilla Orchids are among the most labour-intensive plants to grow. And getting good with Warrior takes more effort than with other professions.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

4 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

How are Guardian Spirits area denial but Ele Glyph of Storms isn't?  And we used to have Dragon's Tooth as an "area deterrent" but now it's just a spicier Flame Strike with a blast finisher.

As far as Warrior having area denial, I'd say they should be a walking area of denial using CC and pumping out damage. Really could boost their ability to do damage with CCs (it feels nice in PvE) and improve on their ability to strip stability quickly.

That being said, if they could somehow alter Meditations to add useful AoE effects at your feet that remain at the location (either beneficial for your allies or detrimental to foes OR BOTH) and I dunno, make Winds of Disenchantment great again. If you *have* to equalize all utility across all professions and destroy uniqueness in the process, at the very least, Spell Breaker is your candidate for Warrior here.

Yeah, you said it. The warrior has very strong area denial — the area around the warrior is denied to his enemies! This is by design since the whole idea of warrior is positioning. If your whole playstyle is to be casting big AoEs at 1,000 range then your positioning matters a lot less, and this is its advantage. For the warrior, positioning is everything, since it determines who you can hit and how fast you can get to your next target. The advantage of this is that your immediate area is denied much more emphatically than it is from a simple pulsing AoE circle.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[Stx.4857]

Why do all classes need to have this specific type of ability?  Different classes are different and bring different abilities with their own uses.  What matters is that all the classes are viably competitive performance wise.  

[Kuma.1503]

Elementalist: Glyph of Storms, Summon Ice Elemental (they spam ice fields on the ground that pusle chilled), Conjures  (Flaming GS, Frostbow, Lightning Hammer, Flame axe if you count the fire trail.)

Warrior is the only class that lacks a utility that does this. It's a class all about hitting things until they die with no frills attatched, so this is fine

They're not completely out of luck. They can't use utilities to create lingering AoE, but they can use utilties to augment their AoE. Headbutt + Blood Reckoning + Longbow = 3 Massive fire fields that pulse burning. 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Smoosh.2718]

28 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Warrior is the only class that lacks a utility that does this. It's a class all about hitting things until they die with no frills attatched, so this is fine

The issue arrises mostly from PvP, all classes can essentially make the capture point too hot to stay on by slapping down AOE's from their utility skills, the warrior has no ability to be able to do this, relying only on weapon attacks to defend a capture point.

If i did include weapon skills, the list for other classes would be even longer for AOE abilities/skills showing even more of an already large inbalance.

Lets not look into damaging Utility skills as well, as we will find, once again one class for the PvP environment has next to none while all other classes have many damaging utilities to choose from. (we can thank that silly CC damage nerf 'balance patch' for that.).

A very simple solution to this would be, change Banners into Wells, create a pulsing effect from the Banner/Well, be it damage or boons and the utility AOE imbalance is on the right track.

[connor.2180]

11 hours ago, Smoosh.2718 said:

The issue arrises mostly from PvP, all classes can essentially make the capture point too hot to stay on by slapping down AOE's from their utility skills, the warrior has no ability to be able to do this, relying only on weapon attacks to defend a capture point.

Warriors don't need to spam AoE to hold a capture point. They're arguably the best duelists in the game and can often hold a capture point against 2 attackers (or atleast kite and keep 2 players busy causing your team to outnumber elsewhere). AoE area denial is certainly useful on the mid point or wherever else the team fight is, but a warrior is better suited elsewhere. If you want to spam AoE in team fights pick a class more suited to that style. Additionally, a spellbreaker with full counter or a berserker ready for berserk mode is just as effective at pushing an enemy off node than any AoE skill is. 

[Smoosh.2718]

11 minutes ago, connor.2180 said:

Warriors don't need to spam AoE to hold a capture point. They're arguably the best duelists in the game and can often hold a capture point against 2 attackers (or atleast kite and keep 2 players busy causing your team to outnumber elsewhere). AoE area denial is certainly useful on the mid point or wherever else the team fight is, but a warrior is better suited elsewhere. If you want to spam AoE in team fights pick a class more suited to that style. Additionally, a spellbreaker with full counter or a berserker ready for berserk mode is just as effective at pushing an enemy off node than any AoE skill is. 

As much as Id like to agree that warrior does well as a dueler, we come into a little bit of an issue when we have classes in the game who are outstanding at dueling and keeping multiple targets on them at the same time, al;l while they still have access to AOE's. Something does not sit right for me on this imbalance.
Why is it that one class can not do half the stuff that every single other class can do?
We have classes who can pump out huge damage all while also having the option of running support builds, Thief, Guardian, Ranger, Necromancer, Elementalist.

So yes this imballance does go beyond just utility skills alone, however when you have one class locked out of even touching an AOE denial utility skill the game seems to be weighted more in favour of the AOE casters.

[XenesisII.1540]

Include weapon skills in your argument.

 

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see a problem here. What someone people label as 'huge inbalance' appears to other people as 'meaningful differences that define classes'. 

 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't see a problem here. What someone people label as 'huge inbalance' appears to other people as 'meaningful differences that define classes'. 

 

Here is the issue, though; It stops being "meaningful differences that define classes" when its the only class (or only one of two) that is lacking these things.

Class identity is one thing, a class entirely lacking things that other classes have access to which allows them to function better in any given balance environment is another.

For instance why would you use a Warrior as a Duelist when you can use another class with many more functional tools that just does it better? That is the issue this runs into.

[Matoro.9708]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:11 AM, Smoosh.2718 said:

When you look through the list of classes you can note that almost all the classes can create AOE denial effects via utilities.

• Engineer: Turrets

We truly live in a society

[Obtena.7952]

41 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Here is the issue, though; It stops being "meaningful differences that define classes" when its the only class (or only one of two) that is lacking these things.

The exclusivity of lacking a 'thing' doesn't stop this from being a meaningful difference, even if you want to argue it's a deficiency because all other classes have it. A class is defined just as much by what it doesn't do as what it does do. 

41 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Class identity is one thing, a class entirely lacking things that other classes have access to which allows them to function better in any given balance environment is another.

OK, but if this is leading to a claim warrior is deficient because it lacks something everything else, that's simply not a complete assessment of its abilities in a given game mode. 

41 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

For instance why would you use a Warrior as a Duelist when you can use another class with many more functional tools that just does it better? That is the issue this runs into.

Obviously there are valid reasons to do that because there ARE people who SOMEHOW concluded they want to use warrior, EVEN if another class has many more functional tools that just does it better. I guess you want to ignore the whole 'player' factor here, but you can't. 

Look, you simply aren't going escape the fallacy that you can pick apart a class based on individual features it doesn't have or things it does worse than everyone else and make a compelling argument it's deficient because the fact is that there aren't many class features that are baseline expectations that all classes should have in the first place. People should not be inventing baseline expectations to claim deficiency of a class, just because they see some coincidental pattern of a feature. 

But the most important thing here: What makes anyone think this kind of class comparison is how Anet determines what capabilities a class has in PVP? It's certainly not based on all the examples of class changes  where Anet have NOT giving classes things just because other classes have them. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[KryTiKaL.3125]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't see why being the exclusivity of lacking this 'thing' stops it from being a meaningful difference though. In fact, it doesn't. A class is defined just as much by what it doesn't do as what it does do. 

Again, claiming warrior is deficient because it lacks something everything else has is not a valid assessment of it's abilities in a game mode. 

For lots of reasons ... because there ARE people who SOMEHOW concluded they want to use warrior, EVEN if another class has many more functional tools that just does it better. 

Look, you simply aren't going escape the fallacy that you can pick apart a class based on individual features it doesn't have or things it does worse than everyone else and make a compelling argument it's deficient because the fact is that there aren't many features that are baseline expectations that any class should have in the first place.

If you think that's how Anet is assessing classes for their abilities in PVP, then wow, you aren't paying attention. Nothing I've seen in the 11 years this game has existed shows Anet is making these kind of class to class comparisons to decide what those classes can or can't do. 

I think the exact opposite is true. ANet has very visibly shifted the gameplay dynamics to boons, boons, and lots and lots of boons as the focal point of class tools in both PvE and PvP (them going so far even as to continue to reduce the amount of boon rip/corruption that is even available to any given class that has it). I know you have your opinions on how this creates "identity" and "ANet has its ways" but I think we have gone over already that just because ANet does a thing does not necessarily make that default the right thing to do, because in fact they have done a good many things that have been the wrong things to do when it comes to adjustments or reworks or changes to classes, a few of which they have only recently been walking back or "resolving"; examples being giving Mirage back their second dodge and actually addressing the root problem of Mirage Cloak being usable while the character was CC'd, another being Full Counter triggering Burst traits (Adrenal Health, Berserker's Power, etc) from simply the Counter being triggered as opposed to actually landing a hit on anything, Berserker having its "tradeoffs" removed, the initial Banner "rework" being so genuinely terrible that ANet literally scrambled the fastest I've ever seen them scramble to adjust it to be somewhere in the vicinity of tolerable.

These are the reasons why feedback as to what classes can or cannot do, especially in relation to what other classes have access to, is still very important because it isn't exactly the greatest feeling to be playing one class only to see basically all others do all of this crazy, amazing stuff with a "buff bar" thats filled to the brim with 7 different boons and "unique effects" all at multiple stacks while pumping damage into you with more than 3 skills.

Obtena I know you want to argue the opposing side to create some degree of self reflection on what is being said or suggested when it comes to these kinds of posts, but I believe I explained before that rolling into these things with what essentially boils down to dismissing the argument being presented is not helpful to the discussion.

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

I think the exact opposite is true. ANet has very visibly shifted the gameplay dynamics to boons, boons, and lots and lots of boons as the focal point of class tools in both PvE and PvP (them going so far even as to continue to reduce the amount of boon rip/corruption that is even available to any given class that has it). I know you have your opinions on how this creates "identity" and "ANet has its ways" but I think we have gone over already that just because ANet does a thing does not necessarily make that default the right thing to do, because in fact they have done a good many things that have been the wrong things to do when it comes to adjustments or reworks or changes to classes, a few of which they have only recently been walking back or "resolving"; examples being giving Mirage back their second dodge and actually addressing the root problem of Mirage Cloak being usable while the character was CC'd, another being Full Counter triggering Burst traits (Adrenal Health, Berserker's Power, etc) from simply the Counter being triggered as opposed to actually landing a hit on anything, Berserker having its "tradeoffs" removed, the initial Banner "rework" being so genuinely terrible that ANet literally scrambled the fastest I've ever seen them scramble to adjust it to be somewhere in the vicinity of tolerable.

These are the reasons why feedback as to what classes can or cannot do, especially in relation to what other classes have access to, is still very important because it isn't exactly the greatest feeling to be playing one class only to see basically all others do all of this crazy, amazing stuff with a "buff bar" thats filled to the brim with 7 different boons and "unique effects" all at multiple stacks while pumping damage into you with more than 3 skills.

Obtena I know you want to argue the opposing side to create some degree of self reflection on what is being said or suggested when it comes to these kinds of posts, but I believe I explained before that rolling into these things with what essentially boils down to dismissing the argument being presented is not helpful to the discussion.

It's not hard to dismiss arguments based on faulty premise and I see little about the feature that is being discussed that has to do with boon vomiting or Anet reversing some change (since IIRC, warrior never had AOE denial utilities to begin with).

It's simply not a problem that Warrior doesn't have AOE denial as a utility just because other classes do have it since it's not a baseline feature anyone should expect all classes to have. I'm even going to speculate that getting such a thing isn't all that useful to a warrior either because AOE denial is about enabling specific roles in competitive game modes, not about overall class performance in those roles. 

Here is an interesting question for those to think about that think this deficiency should be addressed:

What are you willing to give up on a warrior to get AOE denial toolset, especially as a utility?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[KryTiKaL.3125]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not hard to dismiss arguments based on faulty premise. It's simply not a problem that Warrior doesn't have AOE denial as a utility just because other classes do have it since it's not a baseline feature anyone should expect all classes to have. I'm even going to speculate that getting such a thing isn't all that useful to a warrior either because AOE denial is about enabling specific roles in competitive game modes, not about overall class performance in those roles. 

Here is an interesting question for those to think about that think this deficiency should be addressed:

What are you willing to give up on a warrior to get AOE denial toolset, especially as a utility?

It is only a faulty premise if you're unwilling to start asking questions about the overall discrepancies present in the balance of the game. Especially so when these discrepancies relate to their very visible shift in philosophy and honed in focus on more boons more of the time, among other things.

As for your question, its less about giving something up and just actually having the options available. For instance, take Ranger as an example; Ranger has very functional more single target burst builds, they aren't AoE centric but they put out a lot of damage while also being able to upkeep itself with viable self sustain and good mobility options. Ranger also has more AoE centric builds, usually in the forms of traps with Condi based builds that apply a great deal of pressure within the areas of denial they create. Ranger also has viable Support builds with Druid. That is just one, now look at Guardian, Engineer, Revenant, Elementalist, Mesmer, Thief and Necromancer through a similar lens. Consider the fact that Thief, with Spectre, got better access to the very thing being talked about here as its EoD Elite Spec.

This is the distinction and the issue; Warrior just straight up doesn't even really have the option. It used to be more oppressive in AoE style engagements, way back when Str/Def/Spb was very briefly a thing, at least in sPvP, and it justifiably got nerfed...but the root cause of that being an issue was both the fact that Full Counter was doing damage like it does still in PvE while also triggering things like Adrenal Health and Berserker's Power without ever having the attack make contact with anything. Again, that was a function that was only recently corrected because it was genuinely an issue.

If you were actually watching ANet's trends here with their balance decisions and Elite Specialization designs, Warrior is the only one being left out for some very weird and unknown reason and if you think that reason is "identity" then I guess other classes are just all homogenized and Warrior is the only one with any actual "identity", not that it seems to be helping it much.

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

It is only a faulty premise if you're unwilling to start asking questions about the overall discrepancies present in the balance of the game. Especially so when these discrepancies relate to their very visible shift in philosophy and honed in focus on more boons more of the time, among other things.

As for your question, its less about giving something up and just actually having the options available. For instance, take Ranger as an example; Ranger has very functional more single target burst builds, they aren't AoE centric but they put out a lot of damage while also being able to upkeep itself with viable self sustain and good mobility options. Ranger also has more AoE centric builds, usually in the forms of traps with Condi based builds that apply a great deal of pressure within the areas of denial they create. Ranger also has viable Support builds with Druid. That is just one, now look at Guardian, Engineer, Revenant, Elementalist, Mesmer, Thief and Necromancer through a similar lens. Consider the fact that Thief, with Spectre, got better access to the very thing being talked about here as its EoD Elite Spec.

This is the distinction and the issue; Warrior just straight up doesn't even really have the option. It used to be more oppressive in AoE style engagements, way back when Str/Def/Spb was very briefly a thing, at least in sPvP, and it justifiably got nerfed...but the root cause of that being an issue was both the fact that Full Counter was doing damage like it does still in PvE while also triggering things like Adrenal Health and Berserker's Power without ever having the attack make contact with anything. Again, that was a function that was only recently corrected because it was genuinely an issue.

If you were actually watching ANet's trends here with their balance decisions and Elite Specialization designs, Warrior is the only one being left out for some very weird and unknown reason and if you think that reason is "identity" then I guess other classes are just all homogenized and Warrior is the only one with any actual "identity", not that it seems to be helping it much.

Again, people should not convince themselves having more options, and STILL doing them poorly, is a solution to what ails warrior in PVP. 

Warrior is left out and behind? OK. That's not being disputed. To me, the idea that warrior needs an AOE denial utility JUST because everyone else has one and SOMEHOW that fixes any problem warrior has in PVP is completely absurd. Again, this is a bad tactic. People say there is a problem to justify getting something they want. Then that something doesn't address the problem they use to justify that something. 🤷‍♂️ That doesn't make sense.

It's not a problem that warrior doesn't have AOE denial utility for point defense role in PVP. It's not necessary for every class to fill every role in all game modes to some arbitrary level of performance determined by a few players. 

I mean, if you had to list the top 3 problems with warrior in PVP ... not being able to AOE deny is up there? 🤔

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

On 9/10/2023 at 6:11 PM, Smoosh.2718 said:

• Mesmer: Wells, Deception (cristal sand), Psionic (rain of swords)
• Guardian: Spirits, Traps, Consecrations
• Necromance: Wells, Punishments, Spectral, Corruption (Corrosive poison cloud), Minion (trait: death nova)
• Revenant: Renegade, Jalis (inspiring reinforcement/vengeful hammer), Glint (elemental blast) could probably add mallyx due to it's elite skill, but let's leave it out.
• Ranger: Traps, Survival (muddy terrain)
• Engineer: Wells, Exceeds, Turrets, kits, Gadget (slick shoes), Signet (superconductive signet)
• Thief: Wells, Preperations, , Trick (caltrop), cantrip (shadow flare)
• Elementalist: None Glyph (storm), Conjures
• Warrior: None Armament (Technically, dragonspike mine is a form of area denial)

OP was almost right.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, people should not convince themselves having more options, and STILL doing them poorly, is a solution to what ails warrior in PVP. 

Warrior is left out and behind? OK. That's not being disputed. To me, the idea that warrior needs an AOE denial utility JUST because everyone else has one and SOMEHOW that fixes any problem warrior has in PVP is completely absurd. Again, this is a bad tactic. People say there is a problem to justify getting something they want. Then that something doesn't address the problem they use to justify that something. 🤷‍♂️ That doesn't make sense.

It's not a problem that warrior doesn't have AOE denial utility for point defense role in PVP. It's not necessary for every class to fill every role in all game modes to some arbitrary level of performance determined by a few players. 

I mean, if you had to list the top 3 problems with warrior in PVP ... not being able to AOE deny is up there? 🤔

 

As a problem? One, not the biggest, of course. To me it is also more that this is just something that speaks to the larger issue for Warrior itself that the OP may or may not really be confronting fully. Chose something to focus on, I guess. If not resolved I would not complain, but it would be nice if they would resolve the bigger issues Warrior has by seeing these overall discrepancies and issues being brought up by players.

Thank you for elaborating and providing more context to your point of view, though. Do that more in the future, its very appreciated. Its actually helpful to understand where you are coming from aside from the usual dismissive language you use in your initial posts on these topics.

[Doggie.3184]

Easy fix would be to delete the "Capture the Point" game mode and replace it with "Random Arena" from GW1.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

1 hour ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Easy fix would be to delete the "Capture the Point" game mode and replace it with "Random Arena" from GW1.

Conquest is woefully outdated for how class design has progressed over the years, though if they were to do some Team Deathmatch thing again it would need to not allow repeats of the same Class/Elite Specialization because that gets really bad really quickly and is very exploitable.

[jaif.3518]

spellbreaker has winds, right?

More importantly, banners are the other side of the coin - dropping a banner on the point gives the team an advantage. 

More generally, you can't only look at this from the negative/denial side, you need to also look at classes that can enhance in an area as well.  Shouts, spirits ... these types of things are not evenly distributed either. 

Finally, as has been pointed out above, utility vs weapon is a very artificial split.  It's a question of what tools your class has, not how they are split.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

On 9/13/2023 at 11:25 AM, jaif.3518 said:

spellbreaker has winds, right?

More importantly, banners are the other side of the coin - dropping a banner on the point gives the team an advantage. 

More generally, you can't only look at this from the negative/denial side, you need to also look at classes that can enhance in an area as well.  Shouts, spirits ... these types of things are not evenly distributed either. 

Finally, as has been pointed out above, utility vs weapon is a very artificial split.  It's a question of what tools your class has, not how they are split.

It does have Winds...and it has been progressively nerfed more and more as time has gone on, to such an extent that its really not even close to as vital in zerg vs zerg gameplay anymore. The unique Disenchantment effect doesn't even compensate much for it anymore either, Scourge just ends up being the better pick for that function while also just doing more damage or providing more support.

And in Conquest gameplay Winds is not worth taking over other Elites, namely Juggernaut. It just does not provide nearly enough pressure, even in those small circles.