Secrets of the Obscure Balance Follow-Ups

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

If you want to follow that line of "basic marketing" to cater to open casuals only, they shouldn't bother investing in raids, strikes, or fractals either right?

So what exactly is considered a "great success"? What line does it need to cross? 60/70/80% of the players in there? I'm saying 1/3 of customers were in wvw and you're still telling me it's not enough for anymore other than $0 investment. Players in wvw buy the expansions, they buy account upgrades, they buy cosmetics, regardless of how much or whatever content they play, they are customers too. The content is in the game, it should be kept updated, that's all I'm saying and asking for, not for some expansion dedicated to one mode, not constant system changes.

I don't think it's too much to ask for some new rewards to earn every year, or updated the current rewards structure(which they finally did this year), or update the maps give them a fresh look, like they can't take the trees in auric basin and stick them in alpines and give it a forest look? small changes to the game system so players aren't steam rolling weaker sides? population bandwagons happens so fix the transfer cost? Throw in the 100%wxp event once a month like they did the months leading up to EoD, oh look they going to do special events again, why the kitten did that fall off their radar in the first place?

It wouldn't take much to maintain the mode. Anet is so busy constantly looking for new customers they forget they have current ones that want to stay happy to also reinvest into the game too. This game is full of mismanagement.

Well, it's more complicated than that for sure but at a basic level, that is what is happening right ... do you think we get OW maps and content with every LS and release because that ISN'T the case? New rewards? The thing is that the rewards are generally transferable between game modes so when people talk about 'new WvW rewards' they want, those won't be different than Anet pmaking they earnable in PVE where most people are residing anyways. IN otherwords, it doesn't make sense for Anet to make 'WvW rewards'. 

The problem with this game is that we don't pay for hours to play it, so at the basic level, the investment in the gamemodes is not likely determined by number of players or hours played in each game mode. We pay for access (buying expansions) and gemstore content. So the more accurate measure of  'success' is a measure of time a player spends in each mode as a percent and that percent being applied to the $ they spend on the game. Those individual $ to the game modes are the revenues those game modes earn Anet for that player. Sum up those $ for each player and that gives a pretty good indication what game modes are earning what revenues. 

Don't fall into the trap of convincing yourself how 'little' it would take to do something like add rewards or maps or whatever to a game mode. Whether it's 'little' or 'big' isn't a function of how much time you believe it would take to do it. It's a function of how many resources Anet puts towards that task. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[pallas.8150]

Literally was like just half a year ago when they promised more transparency on balance patches. That didn't last long.

[Obtena.7952]

43 minutes ago, pallas.8150 said:

Literally was like just half a year ago when they promised more transparency on balance patches. That didn't last long.

I don't think anyone should conclude that there isn't transparency because we didn't get a preview because one patch. Maybe if there is trend towards no previews, that accusation would be fair. 

But, I do think Anet should make it VERY CLEAR that transparency isn't just about a preview. It's also about an expectation for handling feedback and behaviour. For sure, patch notes is NOT a license for players to take their worst behaviours on full display on the forums like we have seen when they did start giving us previews. 

I believe it makes little sense for Anet to give us the FULL details of every change. What I would like to see going forwards is they give the text where they provide explanation of the changes we will get, but not the specific details of exactly what traits/skills are getting changed. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Angesombre.4630]

And maybe I'm an idiot, but I would have liked to have known that the other specializations were a bit improved rather than applying nerfs.

But that's just a dream, a utopia.

[Sansar.1302]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't think anyone should conclude that there isn't transparency because we didn't get a preview because one patch. Maybe if there is trend towards no previews, that accusation would be fair. 

But, I do think Anet should make it VERY CLEAR that transparency isn't just about a preview. It's also about an expectation for handling feedback and behaviour. For sure, patch notes is NOT a license for players to take their worst behaviours on full display on the forums like we have seen when they did start giving us previews. 

I believe it makes little sense for Anet to give us the FULL details of every change. What I would like to see going forwards is they give the text where they provide explanation of the changes we will get, but not the specific details of exactly what traits/skills are getting changed. 

That would be not good at all, we need details as they have a track record of having class favorites that are made better than others (guardian, necromancer, revenant and elementalist) 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

If you want to follow that line of "basic marketing" to cater to open casuals only, they shouldn't bother investing in raids, strikes, or fractals either right?

Raids are dead, fractals and strikes are nearly dead--with only one new fractal released prior to expansion (silent surf).  An expansion based around fractal islands mind you.

Open world is where the current focus is, because its where the current legendary armor is, and that takes resources to develop how it looks, how you obtain it, etc.

WvW is slightly above sPvP for 'could care less' on the radar.  If we leave us jaded old timers out, there is no new player experience for WvW, which is important to keep retention.  New players are always confused on why they don't start with a Warclaw, how to get one, and seems like 80% of the time just there for Gift of Battle then back to PvE. 

I know this because in the past few weeks I've had to sit in chat and explain in great detail to multiple newer players the various systems of what WvW is, from what a tag is, to what keeps are, to what the 'point' is, to why roaming alone is hard, etc.  

That aside, not having any preview notes at all is more than a bit worrying.  

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I would understand the lack of preview if it was a hotfix or small patch.

 

But considering the current state of the game with weapon masteries, even if it's not "big" as far as content goes, it is still game changing enough to at least have a preview of what's going to happens. I mean it's not like having a preview 24 hours earlier is going to change the content of the update anyway, if it is bad whether I'll have to wait 24 hours or not, I'll still say it's bad. 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

That would be not good at all, we need details as they have a track record of having class favorites that are made better than others (guardian, necromancer, revenant and elementalist) 

That doesn't make sense. Access to those details has no correlation to whatever you want to convince yourself is a dev favoured class or not. 

Put it this way: if those details are what is necessary for you to convince yourself Anet devs have class favourites, then MAYBE what you convinced yourself of is not true.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Echostorm.9143]

12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't think anyone should conclude that there isn't transparency because we didn't get a preview because one patch. Maybe if there is trend towards no previews, that accusation would be fair. 

But, I do think Anet should make it VERY CLEAR that transparency isn't just about a preview. It's also about an expectation for handling feedback and behaviour. For sure, patch notes is NOT a license for players to take their worst behaviours on full display on the forums like we have seen when they did start giving us previews. 

I believe it makes little sense for Anet to give us the FULL details of every change. What I would like to see going forwards is they give the text where they provide explanation of the changes we will get, but not the specific details of exactly what traits/skills are getting changed. 

When people don't feel heard, they shout.  This is on Anet, not us.

[Obtena.7952]

56 minutes ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

When people don't feel heard, they shout.  This is on Anet, not us.

Yeah again ... people need to have a realistic expectation of how Anet can't 'hear' every individual person's ideas/opinions, whether they are shouting or not. That is ABSOLUTELY on players. The comedic part is that people convinced themselves shouting changes whether they are heard or not. NEWSFLASH you aren't getting 'heard' any better if you shout ... but if you want to start making the best coherent feedback you can ... that's a good start for being 'heard'. 

But in case there is a density issue, the answer is that it's NOT reasonable foranyone to think being 'heard' by Anet means they get what they want. 

I mean, if you don't think there isn't player responsibility there ... you simply don't deserve the privilege of being heard in the first place. Probably part of the problem here is that people don't understand this is a privilege.  Lots of people's entitlement showing here.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

20 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

If you want to follow that line of "basic marketing" to cater to open casuals only, they shouldn't bother investing in raids, strikes, or fractals either right?

So what exactly is considered a "great success"? What line does it need to cross? 60/70/80% of the players in there? I'm saying 1/3 of customers were in wvw and you're still telling me it's not enough for anymore other than $0 investment. Players in wvw buy the expansions, they buy account upgrades, they buy cosmetics, regardless of how much or whatever content they play, they are customers too. The content is in the game, it should be kept updated, that's all I'm saying and asking for, not for some expansion dedicated to one mode, not constant system changes.

I don't think it's too much to ask for some new rewards to earn every year, or updated the current rewards structure(which they finally did this year), or update the maps give them a fresh look, like they can't take the trees in auric basin and stick them in alpines and give it a forest look? small changes to the game system so players aren't steam rolling weaker sides? population bandwagons happens so fix the transfer cost? Throw in the 100%wxp event once a month like they did the months leading up to EoD, oh look they going to do special events again, why the kitten did that fall off their radar in the first place?

It wouldn't take much to maintain the mode. Anet is so busy constantly looking for new customers they forget they have current ones that want to stay happy to also reinvest into the game too. This game is full of mismanagement.

First they don't invest in raids (raids have stopped getting new content at the same time pvp and wvw : aka bastion + warclaw + adashim in year 2019)  , fractals have a big success just look lfg and don't forget if they add a new one freshly new lvl80 can bother with it doing t1 or t2 if they have enough Ar , and strikes design in the normal mode are very casual friendly , also ppl encounter a very easy mode in the story version of the strike , that only bolster enough the trust in somebody very new about the fight as a strike, the thing with the lfg is ppl are very often scared or shy to take command of a squad cause they don't know what is needed or how to display correctly a squad or even to be  accountable for a fail , just place your tag and tell "everyone welcome" and see your squad fill up like an ice cream machine on a cornetto.

I may be wrong about the success of wvw , but i am pretty sure pvp have a very little playerbase and i franckly have no source for it , it's just a personal feeling , most ppl i know play wvw to have their gift of battle then go the hell away till they need another one , thats what i do too. Anyway you have been promised alliances for how many time now for wvw ? that only should tell you how much anet care about wvw... it's sad for this mode , even if i don't play it , but 5 years wihtout any big content update ... or maybe anet is satisfied with the actual number of players in wvw and don't want to have more because of server management , and will add new content when they see the number decrease drastically below their standarts, thats also a method of marketing , "add new things , update ,content or -x% coupon when ppl seem to move away from your product", In that case , in anet eyes , wvw has enough success.

But i understand the frustration only wvw players or pvp have , when they see what the pve (especially open world) have as updates.

Edited September 26, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[PzTnT.7198]

Hmm, now that the patch is live i have to wonder if dhuumfire was extra nerfed for harbingers as it seems to have a 1 second base there rather than 3 for base necro and reaper and 2 on scourge.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

They could have done some rough, basic maths to try and make more of those relic more competitive for PvE DPS, both power and condi side. Clearly that's asking too much. Do they think anything through?

Also, why nerf other condi necros on their way to nerf scourge? Was Harb overperforming? Condi Reaper? Is the idea of targeting a single spec to hard to comprehend?

They keep putting out sloppy work and wasting tons of time trying to fix it, they could at least ATTEMPT to do proper work from the get go and save themselves a lot of effort long term. This is pathetic.

[Echostorm.9143]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah again ... people need to have a realistic expectation of how Anet can't 'hear' every individual person's ideas/opinions, whether they are shouting or not. That is ABSOLUTELY on players. The comedic part is that people convinced themselves shouting changes whether they are heard or not. NEWSFLASH you aren't getting 'heard' any better if you shout ... but if you want to start making the best coherent feedback you can ... that's a good start for being 'heard'. 

But in case there is a density issue, the answer is that it's NOT reasonable foranyone to think being 'heard' by Anet means they get what they want. 

I mean, if you don't think there isn't player responsibility there ... you simply don't deserve the privilege of being heard in the first place. Probably part of the problem here is that people don't understand this is a privilege.  Lots of people's entitlement showing here.

Yeah, it's our fault Anet never follows through on their promises of communication and transparency.  We're entirely out of line in expecting them to listen and engage with their customers like almost every other company on Earth.  We're just over entitled snowflakes that should just shut up and be happy that we're getting a game at all and spend more money on gems and say thank you.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

Yeah, it's our fault Anet never follows through on their promises of communication and transparency.  We're entirely out of line in expecting them to listen and engage with their customers like almost every other company on Earth.  We're just over entitled snowflakes that should just shut up and be happy that we're getting a game at all and spend more money on gems and say thank you.

That doesn't make sense. No one is saying players are at fault for that except you. Care to make a point or just continue denying players behaving badly is unacceptable and likely part of the reason Anet could shift from giving specific patch details?

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Echostorm.9143]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. No one is saying players are at fault for that except you. 

That's what you said.  The players were not nice enough and complained so Anet ignores us and we deserve it for being awful spoiled children for saying anything about the game that isn't mindless fawning.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Echostorm.9143 said:

That's what you said.  The players were not nice enough and complained so Anet ignores us and we deserve it for being awful spoiled children for saying anything about the game that isn't mindless fawning.

No, I didn't say that it's players fault Anet never follows through on their promises of communication and transparency... at all. I don't even agree that Anet isn't following through on those things either.

Care to try again or just continue to dispute the role players have in the communication with Anet?

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Echostorm.9143]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, I didn't say that ... at all. Care to try again?

No, it's exactly what you said.  Scroll up.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Echostorm.9143 said:

No, it's exactly what you said.  Scroll up.

No, I know what I said. That wasn't it. Don't need to scroll up to know that players DO have a role in the way communicates to us, despite what you think. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Echostorm.9143]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No, I know what I said. That wasn't it. 

It was and it was clear as day. There is no point in continuing this, you've made yourself clear. 

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

There is no point in continuing this

For you maybe. For me, it's important people understand there should be NO DISPUTE that players DO have some responsibility in how Anet communicates with us, despite whatever belief you have it's all on Anet. This is not just some one-sided thing just because players aren't mature enough to handle changes they make to the game. There are consequences to how people behave; I believe we are seeing the result of that. 

You want Anet to be more transparent and communicating? Great ... then don't be part of the group of people that exhibit bad behaviours we generally see from people who 'want to be heard by shouting' because they don't get what they want. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Echostorm.9143]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

For you maybe. For me, it's important people understand there should be NO DISPUTE that players DO have some responsibility in how Anet communicates with us, despite whatever belief you have it's all on Anet. This is not just some one-sided thing just because players aren't mature enough to handle changes they make to the game. 

No.  You teach people how to interact with you.  Anet has consistently ignored and mislead the player base over their existence.  The only thing that has ever even remotely moved the needle with them is massive outrage and controversy.  Players have learned over years of conditioning that sending nice and well reasoned suggestions or even questions on here or reddit or twitter that they will be summarily ignored.  Even threads with dozens or even hundreds of replies don't warrant even a 1 sentence reply.   Do you know what that tells players?  That Anet doesn't care what we think AT ALL and that makes about half of us feel hurt and the other half feel angry.  If people didn't care about this game there wouldn't be any anger or passion that you've been railing against.  The opposite of love isn't hate, it is apathy and it is what comes after they ignore us for long enough and we give up.  Angry players are a warning sign, a symptom that Anet has allowed our relationship to fester and if they don't change, you will get your wish,. the only people left will be their cheerleaders because the people begging to be heard, to be acknowledged at all, will finally give up.

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

No.  You teach people how to interact with you.  Anet has consistently ignored and mislead the player base over their existence.  The only thing that has ever even remotely moved the needle with them is massive outrage and controversy.  Players have learned over years of conditioning that sending nice and well reasoned suggestions or even questions on here or reddit or twitter that they will be summarily ignored.  Even threads with dozens or even hundreds of replies don't warrant even a 1 sentence reply.   Do you know what that tells players?  That Anet doesn't care what we think AT ALL and that makes about half of us feel hurt and the other half feel angry.  If people didn't care about this game there wouldn't be any anger or passion that you've been railing against.  The opposite of love isn't hate, it is apathy and it is what comes after they ignore us for long enough and we give up.  Angry players are a warning sign, a symptom that Anet has allowed our relationship to fester and if they don't change, you will get your wish,. the only people left will be their cheerleaders because the people begging to be heard, to be acknowledged at all, will finally give up.

You can believe what you like but there is no room for debate.

Players do have some responsibility in the communications they have with Anet. 

I mean, you can blame Anet all you want for not 'teaching' people how to interact with them. I think that's absolutely absurd because the minimum standard for being a non-hostile communicator as a player isn't something a mature and reasonable person needs to be taught in the first place. That's something good parents teach CHILDREN. 

This is what I hear when I read your post: You imply that because Anet doesn't do things the way players want, that hostility becomes the NORMAL and REASONABLE approach ... SOMEHOW. 

.... and people wonder why we might not have gotten a full patch note preview? Headsmacking goodness right there. 🙄

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

32 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean, you can blame Anet all you want for not 'teaching' people how to interact with them. I think that's absolutely absurd because the minimum standard for being a non-hostile communicator as a player isn't something a mature and reasonable person needs to be taught in the first place. That's something good parents teach CHILDREN. 

Lmao, You can't gaslight harder if you tried.

 

15 pages of the most universally hated patch of 2023. June 27.

15 pages of players feedback threw into the void by Anet.

And now all of a sudden you and Anet are having this surprised pikachu face when people get pissed that they're not heard.

It's no wonder People leaked the Balance discord.

[Obtena.7952]

47 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Lmao, You can't gaslight harder if you tried.

 

15 pages of the most universally hated patch of 2023. June 27.

15 pages of players feedback threw into the void by Anet.

And now all of a sudden you and Anet are having this surprised pikachu face when people get pissed that they're not heard.

It's no wonder People leaked the Balance discord.

It's not gaslighting if it's true.

Being a decent person has nothing to do with 'Anet teaching us how to communicate with them".

Nothing you can say will change the fact that players DO have a responsibility for how they communicate with Anet.

No sense of entitlement to previews or game working how they want will rid people of that responsibility either. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952