Increase long range AoE pull cooldowns

[Riba.3271]

Temporal Curtain (Mesmer/Focus): 25 seconds

Grasping Darkness (Necro Greatsword) : 30 seconds

Hunter's Verdict (Dragonhunter pull) : 40 seconds

Now as you can see, all of these specs or weaponsets are staple in largescale fights, where up to 40% of a whole group can be formed out of them while staying competitive. The cooldowns are also in reality shorter, considering alacrity sharing and that scourge and chronomancer both maintain large amount of alacrity.

If a skilled individual knows how to time their pulls and uses them off cooldown, they can get multiple succesful 3-5 man pulls in a longer fight, essentially sentencing those people to death. This obviously limits the length of fights to very short.

So my suggestion is to increase the cooldown of these long-range pulls to around 50 seconds in WvW. Of course the specs or weaponsets might need small compensation buffs elsewhere, but I believe it better for the gamemode if we make the most impactful abilities less spammable and move the power of the specs elsewhere.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

ANet likes it when their blob pulls unwitting randoms, and their blob is unaffected by pulls because they have stab stacks  constantly.  ANet only wants you to play WvW one way.  Get with the program.

Doesn't hurt to ask, I guess, but my guess is, get used to disappointment.

[Riba.3271]

4 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

their blob is unaffected by pulls because they have stab stacks  constantly

Actually since chronomancer and necromancer elite specs are the best boon removers in the game, even stability cannot bypass the strip roulette against players that chain strips into CC. Doesnt matter if its the most skilled guild in the game, you can still pull some players.

[Zyreva.1078]

23 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

but I believe it better for the gamemode if we make the most impactful abilities less spammable

You mean abilities such as

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Stand_Your_Ground!"
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspiring_Reinforcement
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Portent_of_Freedom
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Epilogue:_Unbroken_Lines
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Concentration
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trail_of_Anguish

All on similar or shorter cd than those nasty pulls ...

23 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

If a skilled individual knows how to time their pulls and uses them off cooldown, they can get multiple succesful 3-5 man pulls in a longer fight, essentially sentencing those people to death. This obviously limits the length of fights to very short.

Are you talking about "longer" or "very short" fights now? Because it seems like even you aren't sure about that ...

[Riba.3271]

8 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

39 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

but I believe it better for the gamemode if we make the most impactful abilities less spammable

You mean abilities such as

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Stand_Your_Ground!"
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inspiring_Reinforcement
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Portent_of_Freedom
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Epilogue:_Unbroken_Lines
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Concentration
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trail_of_Anguish

All on similar or shorter cd than those nasty pulls ...

Boonrips are even shorter cooldown than the pulls. All the pulls are preluded with boonrips which have large chance to remove stability from some of the targets.

8 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

39 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

If a skilled individual knows how to time their pulls and uses them off cooldown, they can get multiple succesful 3-5 man pulls in a longer fight, essentially sentencing those people to death. This obviously limits the length of fights to very short.

Are you talking about "longer" or "very short" fights now? Because it seems like even you aren't sure about that ...

Well in average fights last less than 10 seconds these days with 1 group 1 pushing other. So longer fights are anything where you actually get 2nd or 3rd rotation of wells off. This is still very short compared to some of the past metas.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Riba.3271

[XenesisII.1540]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aegis

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw

Four confused people who don't know why they get pulled off walls -->

Edited October 10, 2023 by XenesisII.1540

[Zyreva.1078]

20 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Boonrips are even shorter cooldown than the pulls. All the pulls are preluded with boonrips which have large chance to remove stability from some of the targets.

Strips have been nerfed a lot, while boon spam has increased massively. Players in a somewhat organised grp can run arround with 8+ boons pretty much permanently while strips typically only remove 1-2 at a time. So if your stab is constantly getting stripped you are either facetanking everything or your comp is trash and lacks boons. There is no way stab has a "high chance" of getting stripped otherwise.

20 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Well in average fights last less than 10 seconds these days

So cds higher than 10 s are irrelevant anyway? What's the point in increasing those even further then? It won't make those fights last longer ...

20 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

This is still very short compared to some of the past metas.

Offense has been nerfed, defense has been buffed. Repeatedly. Shorter fights are hardly the result of those balance changes.

Should they really continue this process until nobody dies anymore?

Edited October 7, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Me and my homies HATE Spectral Grasp

[Sleepwalker.1398]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

Temporal Curtain (Mesmer/Focus): 25 seconds

 

Can you leave this skill the kitten alone. It's range has already been nerfed.

The skill can't even reach from the ground below near red keep to pull someone who would be on a cata or balli near the vista hill. There are lot of places this skill doesn't reach up to anymore. You get pulled cos you got too close to a commander of a blob.

Why did you leave this skill out? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Grasp 

Why don't you ask Anet to fix that buggy pull skill that behaves different and range acts weird some many times.

[Chaba.5410]

39 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aegis

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warclaw

What is this, bro?

https://ibb.co/nMwTjSZ

[Riba.3271]

31 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

 

Why did you leave this skill out? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Grasp 

Honestly I forgot about it, obviously the cooldown if it should be increased as well. In largescale fights it is mostly troublesome when combined with "Nothing Can Save You!" (Shout) that makes it unblockable and bypass reflects.

[Riba.3271]

55 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Temporal Curtain (Mesmer/Focus): 25 seconds

 

Can you leave this skill the kitten alone. It's range has already been nerfed.

The skill can't even reach from the ground below near red keep to pull someone who would be on a cata or balli near the vista hill. There are lot of places this skill doesn't reach up to anymore. You get pulled cos you got too close to a commander of a blob.

Well, just today there a Chronomancer sitting outside Wildcreek tower pulling people off the wall succesfully and not participating in actual fight. Of course, due to how alacrity works on chronomancer, the cooldown was more realistically around 17 seconds.

If the cooldown was longer, he probably would have participated in the fight rather than make other peoples gaming experience miserable.

Now I get that using pulls is fun, but you have to also consider the experience for the victims. This particularly hurts new players.

Also do note that I was saying that the weaponset could receive compensation buffs. For example they could make Temporal Curtain grant like 2s of superspeed in addition to swiftness. Considering the skill has no allied target cap, it would stay as quite potent tool then that could be combined with veil. Maybe they could also reduce Null Field cooldown to 30 seconds then, considering pulls were part of why 25 second version was so problematic. They could also boost focus 5 damage if they're worried about focus falling off for smaller fights. Anything to move these specs out of pull spam.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Burnfall.9573]

3 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Temporal Curtain (Mesmer/Focus): 25 seconds

Grasping Darkness (Necro Greatsword) : 30 seconds

Hunter's Verdict (Dragonhunter pull) : 40 seconds

Now as you can see, all of these specs or weaponsets are staple in largescale fights, where up to 40% of a whole group can be formed out of them while staying competitive. The cooldowns are also in reality shorter, considering alacrity sharing and that scourge and chronomancer both maintain large amount of alacrity.

If a skilled individual knows how to time their pulls and uses them off cooldown, they can get multiple succesful 3-5 man pulls in a longer fight, essentially sentencing those people to death. This obviously limits the length of fights to very short.

So my suggestion is to increase the cooldown of these long-range pulls to around 50 seconds in WvW. Of course the specs or weaponsets might need small compensation buffs elsewhere, but I believe it better for the gamemode if we make the most impactful abilities less spammable and move the power of the specs elsewhere.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scorpion_Wire :  60 seconds

                                                           Maximum count: 1

                                                                               Range:  300

Edited October 7, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Sleepwalker.1398]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

Well, just today there a Chronomancer sitting outside Wildcreek tower pulling people off the wall succesfully and not participating in actual fight. Of course, due to how alacrity works on chronomancer, the cooldown was more realistically around 17 seconds.

If the cooldown was longer, he probably would have participated in the fight rather than make other peoples gaming experience miserable.

Now I get that using pulls is fun, but you have to also consider the experience for the victims. This particularly hurts new players.

So 3 people having fun means, hey lets nerf this skill more.

You could just mount up and look at them and laugh, cos they can't do anything then.

[Riba.3271]

28 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

3 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Temporal Curtain (Mesmer/Focus): 25 seconds

Grasping Darkness (Necro Greatsword) : 30 seconds

Hunter's Verdict (Dragonhunter pull) : 40 seconds

Now as you can see, all of these specs or weaponsets are staple in largescale fights, where up to 40% of a whole group can be formed out of them while staying competitive. The cooldowns are also in reality shorter, considering alacrity sharing and that scourge and chronomancer both maintain large amount of alacrity.

If a skilled individual knows how to time their pulls and uses them off cooldown, they can get multiple succesful 3-5 man pulls in a longer fight, essentially sentencing those people to death. This obviously limits the length of fights to very short.

So my suggestion is to increase the cooldown of these long-range pulls to around 50 seconds in WvW. Of course the specs or weaponsets might need small compensation buffs elsewhere, but I believe it better for the gamemode if we make the most impactful abilities less spammable and move the power of the specs elsewhere.

Expand  

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scorpion_Wire :  60 seconds

                                                           Maximum count: 1

                                                                               Range:  300

Scorpion wire isn't AoE pull.

I don't really get your point.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Riba.3271

[ArchonWing.9480]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Liberation

Tell your firebrands to stop going afk. Or failing that, get a mesmer with

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Concentration

I mean, I sometimes hit lag spikes of 2k ping and sometimes I can't even tell what direction my zerg goes in, yet I can still keep stab on my party most of the time.

2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Well, just today there a Chronomancer sitting outside Wildcreek tower pulling people off the wall succesfully and not participating in actual fight.

And standing on a wall is participating in a fight? They're just pulling off your dead weight so you don't get decieved into thinking you have more fighters than you  do.

Edited October 7, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Mauti.3520]

tbh, I feel like with the infestation that Heal Scourge is about to become and Power Reaper/Power Scourge being as popular as usual it's just a kitten show sometimes. It felt okay when only Reaper's had it as part of their utility that Scourge had not but with Necro GS now core and Necro being even more a blight to WvW it's just too much. 900 Range,.5 Targets lmao. Why strips/corrupts when you can just melt stab anyway.

Guard basically drops Stab for 1-2 secs and the pull ping pong fiesta starts. Roll the dice who get's caught. Not that much fun.

Not talking about randoms getting snacked off a wall, bc whatever. - It's ArenaNets part to decide whether they like the idea of walls being more like death traps and noob bait than actual defenses nowadays. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Mauti.3520

[subversiontwo.7501]

I'll chime in with my two cents here too, since I'm still logged in from hours ago.

I don't necessarily see any issues with some pull skills being long-ranged - what's possibly more problematic are those pulls that pull a long range. Those mechanics have always been questionable, but mostly kept in check by not being overly used. Some people have always used them to great effect, but as more and more players begin to stack them it just leads to an overall unhealthy game. That goes for both skills like Reaper GS5 and Scorpion wire, Magnet or DH F1. Skills like Mesmer focus 4 that have short pulls I've always been alright with, even if they have had long potential reach.

Something similar goes for the complete opposite. I would probably look to change hard CC that just sticks people in place too since it just becomes so stack-friendly and that does not lead to alot of healthy gameplay once it grows in popularity. So I don't have any qualms with eg., knock-backs but more so with knock-downs etc. It is fine to cause separation, but rarely healthy to stick players in place for extended periods of time. If that overprofiles it just becomes lazy and easy damage setups that usually aids the larger.

So I would love to see more typical pulls have shorter pull-ranges, beyond that I don't really care if they have longer pull-reaches. I would also love too see more things that stick players rather become small pulls or pushes so you can't just stick players in place and mow them down while taking their buttons away, at least not without some finesse. With that I would also change things like the recent Guardian hammer 4-2 combo back to how it was before, as that promoted finesse that can't be easily reproduced and stacked. Things like control-burst combos does not need user-friendliness. It may be an odd example since it is rarely used, but it is also a very recent example that points out exactly how-not to approach things.

Also, I don't necessarily say this because it affects me very much or because I somehow would be above using it. Quite the contrary, I've been using alot of Greatsword pulls lately and since the spring patch that limited stability I've been trying to convince my friends to stack tons of long-range sticking skills because it is so effective in the current balance/content/climate. I just don't think the game needs even less incentive for public groups to form or for tools that enable griefing to be so available as content delves down into more ganking- and griefing type of behaviour, eg., for players who may be new and first set foot in WvW. That you can get pulled along a wall may be a good lesson, but much less so getting yoinked to Narnia. Things like EotM also taught us that pulling people off heights can be good fun in appropriate amounts but it quickly stifles content once it becomes a more applicable and prevalent tactic.

Edited October 8, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[babana.7521]

OP request is baseless, pull isn't broken, its not even something 90% of players can perform successfully, OP wanted a game tactic nerf because according to them players became skillful at what they do. If every things get nerfed because players got skillfull, than the whole game needs to be nerf. 
please close this thread. its baseless and only going to lead to ridiculous arguments.

6 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

If a skilled individual knows how to time their pulls and uses them off cooldown, they can get multiple succesful 3-5 man pulls in a longer fight, essentially sentencing those people to death. This obviously limits the length of fights to very short.

 

[Caffynated.5713]

Pulls shouldn't work in WvW at all. They can completely invalidate positioning, terrain and fortifications, and force people to blob for perma stab to avoid being instantly killed when they're vacuumed into a zerg ball or off a cliff. They actively make the game less skillful and enjoyable to play.

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Temporal Curtain (Mesmer/Focus): 25 seconds

Grasping Darkness (Necro Greatsword) : 30 seconds

Hunter's Verdict (Dragonhunter pull) : 40 seconds

Now as you can see, all of these specs or weaponsets are staple in largescale fights, where up to 40% of a whole group can be formed out of them while staying competitive. The cooldowns are also in reality shorter, considering alacrity sharing and that scourge and chronomancer both maintain large amount of alacrity.

If a skilled individual knows how to time their pulls and uses them off cooldown, they can get multiple succesful 3-5 man pulls in a longer fight, essentially sentencing those people to death. This obviously limits the length of fights to very short.

So my suggestion is to increase the cooldown of these long-range pulls to around 50 seconds in WvW. Of course the specs or weaponsets might need small compensation buffs elsewhere, but I believe it better for the gamemode if we make the most impactful abilities less spammable and move the power of the specs elsewhere.

Will have to disagree my friend. In the boonball meta increasing cooldowns on CC abilities is a non starter without increasing boonstrip and conversations that were nerfed. This grants the boon side even more strength. So -1 from me here I hate to say.

[Riba.3271]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

14 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Temporal Curtain (Mesmer/Focus): 25 seconds

Grasping Darkness (Necro Greatsword) : 30 seconds

Hunter's Verdict (Dragonhunter pull) : 40 seconds

Now as you can see, all of these specs or weaponsets are staple in largescale fights, where up to 40% of a whole group can be formed out of them while staying competitive. The cooldowns are also in reality shorter, considering alacrity sharing and that scourge and chronomancer both maintain large amount of alacrity.

If a skilled individual knows how to time their pulls and uses them off cooldown, they can get multiple succesful 3-5 man pulls in a longer fight, essentially sentencing those people to death. This obviously limits the length of fights to very short.

So my suggestion is to increase the cooldown of these long-range pulls to around 50 seconds in WvW. Of course the specs or weaponsets might need small compensation buffs elsewhere, but I believe it better for the gamemode if we make the most impactful abilities less spammable and move the power of the specs elsewhere.

Will have to disagree my friend. In the boonball meta increasing cooldowns on CC abilities is a non starter without increasing boonstrip and conversations that were nerfed. This grants the boon side even more strength. So -1 from me here I hate to say.

Well that is separate issue and I do agree that concentration as a stat needs reduction in potency so we can move away from dominance of minstrel and celestial gear. Overall what I am trying to say is that pulls are stronger than elite abilities, with 3 times less cooldown, and 40% of a blob or guild running them. Intent is not to remove pull abilities completely, but move them from spammed abilities to ones that require some forethought.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Riba.3271]

8 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

That goes for both skills like Reaper GS5 and Scorpion wire, Magnet or DH F1

I don't necessarily find single target pulls like Scorpion Wire or Magnet troublesome, as it does require targeting and using great amount of concentration to time it right, not just throwing it in.  Whereas AoE pulls can easily rely on boon strip RNG or stab downtime to pull 2-3 targets out of 5. The amount of effort required to be succesful AoE puller is just so much less and rewards are much greater.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Justine.6351]

How is increasing the cooldown to 50 seconds going to solve the problem of you instant dying? Wouldn't it be easier to just not die?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:01 AM, Riba.3271 said:

Actually since chronomancer and necromancer elite specs are the best boon removers in the game, even stability cannot bypass the strip roulette against players that chain strips into CC. Doesnt matter if its the most skilled guild in the game, you can still pull some players.

Maybe once in a while... mostly what I see when targeting a zerg member is "He's got six boons, oh, now it's five!  Wait... up to seven..." ad infinitum and just that quickly.  The point was, in an organized zerg, pulls are a lot less noticeable as a problem.   The same goes for things like defense events.  If what you're doing is playing in a ball and hitting enemies in a capture circle who all hit the boss, then getting kill credit equals defense credit.  If that's what ANet is doing, they're going to pooh-pooh defense credit as an issue -- the same way as the demonstrated strip/corrupt nerfs are less of a problem for boon ball play.

Edited October 9, 2023 by IndigoSundown.5419