Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Grogba.6204]

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:I'd like a few individual "easy" raids, but not an easy mode.

We need a new raid wing akin to Wing 4, minus Deimos.

Both would be amazing, easier wings or singular boss encounter (Lotro had Lair Raids for a short period, only two were produced afaik) and harder wings for progression entertaining both crowds.

But currently we can be happy if we get a new wing with more than two bosses at all. :cry:

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Well, not necessarily. We don't know that those players came

to

do raids, just that raiding is

one

of the things they did when they got here. it's also worth noting that they are all within the top 1% of players, so it's not a

huge

group.

Keep in mind that players in the 0-500h bracket started Path of Fire, not Heart of Thorns.

Well, we can't say that with any certainty either. They may have started with HoT, but quit at some point, they may have started with HoT, but only play a few hours a week (roughly 5 hours per week on average), or yes, they may have started well after HoT launched, impossible to say.

In Path of Fire Raids were lessened and not as much advertised, plus Raiding wasn't something new anymore.

They added a brand new one soon after PoF launched, and also a new one a few months before it launched. It's possible that either of those were attractive to new players.

@Miellyn.6847 said:She also said that you shouldn't come up with assumptions if you don't know internal processes.

I'll remind you that you also are coming up with assumptions, just ones contrary to my own. It's impossible to discuss this topic without making assumptions, at least until they provide us with more concrete data.

There is no PvE balance team. Changes are done by the raid team.

Irrelevant semantics to the point I was making. My point was that whatever you call the group of people responsible for tweaking the mechanics of a combat encounter, that is the only team that would be engaged in an easy mode, and not the dozens of other people that are necessary to build equivalent content from scratch.

There is still that tiny little fact that all sides complain about too slow releases and your solution is slowing down everything further.

And there's still the tiny little fact that we have no idea what, if any impact adding these would have to existing release cadences. You assume the worst, I see no reason to make such assumptions, and Gaile warned us not to.

@"Feanor.2358" said:You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less.

A little, sure, but not enough to justify not wanting them to have that thing. I've often described my path to Ascension as being one of the least pleasant experiences I've had with this game, one I'd never want to have to go through again (by, say, "gitting gud" and just "doing the raids"), but because of that it's also not an experience I would wish on anyone else. I would welcome any changes they made that would offer additional options for earning the Ascension, even though I've already got mine and would benefit from it in no way.

You aren't "cheated" if someone gets a better deal than you did. Ideally if someone gets something the hard way right before they make the change to an easier path, they would compensate those players in some other way, just a little nod to the extra work they put in, but you are in no way owed perpetual exclusivity to that item. If you have Legendary armor now, and if they implemented an alternate path to it tomorrow, then even if it only took just as long as the existing ones (and remember that my compromise proposal involves it taking roughly three times as long), it would still be many months before they would have their own armor. The time between then and now is what you get for the work you put in (and even after they have theirs, you still have yours).

Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better.

Fair enough, what should I say then? How should I frame my efforts to have them add an easy mode and an alternate path to Envoy skins that would "look good" to you?

And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around.

That can be one reason, but is far from the only reason. Most games go on deep discounts years before any sequel comes out.

It is still the top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it.

Of course there is a reason, the current cost is too high.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:The discount here is actually that there are more raid wings and more LI's earnable per week, so it's faster to get legendary armor now than compared to at release

That's not actually a discount though, you might be able to shave off some time between when you start and when you finish, but only by doing more work per week. That's not like getting a raise, that's like picking up another part time job for more hours.

[Voltekka.2375]

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:I'd like a few individual "easy" raids, but not an easy mode. Encounters like Dhuum were created with a very specific challenge in mind. There is pride and accomplishment to walking around with the Oblivion scythe.

What we need is a new raid wing akin to Wing 4, minus Deimos. Not a total pushover, but relaxing to clear.

You can buy a Dhuum kill. Just saying.

[Kain Francois.4328]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:I'd like a few individual "easy" raids, but not an easy mode. Encounters like Dhuum were created with a very specific challenge in mind. There is pride and accomplishment to walking around with the Oblivion scythe.

What we need is a new raid wing akin to Wing 4, minus Deimos. Not a total pushover, but relaxing to clear.

You can buy a Dhuum kill. Just saying.

Raid buyers are a significant MINORITY of the player base. Just saying.

[Sarrs.4831]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Fair enough, what should I say then? How should I frame my efforts to have them add an easy mode and an alternate path to Envoy skins that would "look good" to you?

"How do I get better at the game?"

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less.

A little, sure, but not enough to justify not

wanting

them to have that thing. I've often described my path to Ascension as being one of the least pleasant experiences I've had with this game, one I'd never want to have to go through again (by, say, "gitting gud" and just "doing the raids"), but because of that it's

also

not an experience I would wish on

anyone else.

I would

welcome

any changes they made that would offer additional options for earning the Ascension, even though I've already got mine and would benefit from it in no way.

You aren't "cheated" if someone gets a better deal than you did. Ideally if someone gets something the hard way

right

before they make the change to an easier path, they would compensate those players in some other way, just a little nod to the extra work they put in, but you are in no way

owed

perpetual exclusivity to that item. If you have Legendary armor now, and if they implemented an alternate path to it tomorrow, then even if it only took just as long as the existing ones (and remember that my compromise proposal involves it taking roughly three times as long), it would still be many months before they would have their own armor. The time between then and now is what you get for the work you put in (and even after they have theirs, you

still

have yours).

This is a solid point, and I also can relate. Case in point, the Mad King Clock Tower, I busted my ass to finally beat that tower. If this year, they opted to do what they did with Winter's Day, but putting in more paths to the end, I would not feel cheated, in fact, I would welcome it. as often when I did Mad King, I would often cheer others on, telling people they could do it, and trying to build optimism as I knew many where in the same boat as me, having failed dozens if not hundreds of times.

I would say, that is the true division between the two sides of this debate/discussion. Our side that would welcome change so that others do not have to suffer as hard as we did, and we would welcome people to come share all the aspects of the game, and our opponents that have expressed extensively they feel that if anyone gets what they have, somehow that makes them less a person.

While I agree with you @Ohoni.6057 , it makes no sense that Anet would think it is a good idea to try and cater to that demographic, that is exactly what they did, and what is going on right now in the game. They have made is clear they have no intention to change this, or make any revisions to Raids.

So, we have what we have.

It's been a good discussion, and I agree with many of your points and the points of others on the side of building a more accessible game,, but it's clear Anet has made their decision on this matter, and it's really not worth wasting time shouting at people that are not listening to you anyway.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Fair enough, what should I say then? How should I frame my efforts to have them add an easy mode and an alternate path to Envoy skins that would "look good" to you?

"How do I get better at the game?"

No, that wouldn't help. It's not a skill issue, it's a matter of interest. I could "git gud," I could train on the raids and commit to a static, or whatever, but I have no interest in these, things, that's why I play GW2 rather than WoW. So no, that's not an answer to my question, I don't want to adapt myself to the existing content, I want them to add an easy mode and an alternate path to Envoy armor to the game, so I repeat my question, how should I frame that pursuit?

@"STIHL.2489" said:This is a solid point, and I also can relate. Case in point, the Mad King Clock Tower, I busted my kitten to finally beat that tower. If this year, they opted to do what they did with Winter's Day, but putting in more paths to the end, I would not feel cheated, in fact, I would welcome it. as often when I did Mad King, I would often cheer others on, telling people they could do it, and trying to build optimism as I knew many where in the same boat as me, having failed dozens if not hundreds of times.

Exactly, not to mention that they did open up an alternate path to getting the "mad kings boots" via crafting instead of beating the JP.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"STIHL.2489" said:This is a solid point, and I also can relate. Case in point, the Mad King Clock Tower, I busted my kitten to finally beat that tower. If this year, they opted to do what they did with Winter's Day, but putting in more paths to the end, I would not feel cheated, in fact, I would welcome it. as often when I did Mad King, I would often cheer others on, telling people they could do it, and trying to build optimism as I knew many where in the same boat as me, having failed dozens if not hundreds of times.

Exactly, not to mention that they

did

open up an alternate path to getting the "mad kings boots" via crafting instead of beating the JP.

Yup. They did.

One of the really great things about the GW2 team is that they have often done the right thing by their players, always moving in making the game more accessible, and players like us, welcome that.

But it seems they have chosen to break from that direction with Raids, and have openly said, they will not be revising Raids.

I wish I was wrong, and I wish there was some point I could make that would change things, but, I think we have said all we can say on this. Just don't lose yourself here brother, don't give your time to people that won't respect it.

[Sarrs.4831]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:No, that wouldn't help. It's not a skill issue, it's a matter of interest. I could "git gud," I could train on the raids and commit to a static, or hatever, but I have no interest in these, things, that's why I play GW2 rather than WoW. So no, that's not an answer to my question, I don't want to adapt myself to the existing content, I want them to add an easy mode and an alternate path to Envoy armor to the game, so I repeat my question, how should I frame that pursuit?

No, it would; there's a reason there are a lot of people saying "why do raids need an easy mode, they're already easy", it's because they're good at the game. If you become good at the game, it will become easy mode for you. It's a straightforward and practical solution to your problem that requires no developer time.

This is how you reframe the pursuit if you actually want a realistic chance to get what you want. I see no realistic chance that ANet will add an easier mode to raids, and even if they did, there is not a chance in Hell that they would give you Envoy's skins for it.

@"Teamkiller.4315" said:"How do I develop an interest in raids?"

Keep in mind you claimed you aren't a quitter, so demonstrate that to us.

He's been making & posting in these threads for years; he certainly hasn't quit, despite no evidence that ANet will or would move their position. Genuinely, if Ohoni put a fraction of the effort he puts towards arguing on the internet into raiding or any of the other content in the game, he would likely have anything he wanted quite quickly.

[STIHL.2489]

@Sarrs.4831 said:He's been making & posting in these threads for years; he certainly hasn't quit, despite no evidence that ANet will or would move their position. Genuinely, if Ohoni put a fraction of the effort he puts towards arguing on the internet into raiding or any of the other content in the game, he would likely have anything he wanted quite quickly.

Question: Have you ever stopped to consider that it's not personal to them, that they are trying to be a voice for those that either don't have the time or the endurance to be a voice?

[Sykper.6583]

@STIHL.2489 said:Question: Have you ever stopped to consider that it's not personal to them, that they are trying to be a voice for those that either don't have the time or the endurance to be a voice?

Answer: There would be no justifiable way for Ohoni to prove such. I could just as easily make the counter-claim that I represent literally 90% of the players in-game, and the only method which to prove that claim is for me to bring out all 90% of those players who can say I represent them. It's not practical nor logical to just assume you represent any part of the gaming populace. No one player does, this poll does not, even some of the 3rd party websites don't have ALL the data, only plausible correlations and trends that can't be verified by any standard.

Who then has all the data? Arenanet. And as I've said several times, no matter what sort of 'moral ground' you stand on or how much supposed 'gaming expertise' you say you have, if they see the decision to keep the Envoy Armor Skin in raids because it is beneficial to their game and population, they will continue to do so.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

Ive wanted to raid for quite awhile, geared out my toon with meta build, practiced on the SFTA golem, laying down pretty good numbers.Step 2 video's - RU Kitten kidding me. 3 min in my eye's gloss over and by 7 min i'm nodding off.Start talking to people about training raids, pointed back to video again. rinse repeat......... Kitten it, back to WvW and HoT meta's.Make the reward appropriate to the difficulty. The only one's I can see that have a problem with this are the elites who, for some reason, want to keep this mode locked up. In reality, if it were set more like the fractal tiers you would, in theory, get more experienced raiders and a more active raid community. How can any of that be bad except for an ego

[Sephylon.4938]

@Kilamanjaro.2705 said:Ive wanted to raid for quite awhile, geared out my toon with meta build, practiced on the SFTA golem, laying down pretty good numbers.Step 2 video's - RU Kitten kidding me. 3 min in my eye's gloss over and by 7 min i'm nodding off.Start talking to people about training raids, pointed back to video again. rinse repeat......... Kitten it, back to WvW and HoT meta's.Make the reward appropriate to the difficulty. The only one's I can see that have a problem with this are the elites who, for some reason, want to keep this mode locked up. In reality, if it were set more like the fractal tiers you would, in theory, get more experienced raiders and a more active raid community. How can any of that be bad except for an ego

counter argument of that side is that they believe doing so would take too much resources, and they would rather anet focus, and use those resources, on making lw and open world content rather than focusing on raids.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

Ah, the resource argument. The "go to" for anything like this.Fact, Anet releases content quick and fast, they take pride in every aspect of the game. The sheer volume of content they release proves they have the resources to clone and adjust existing content without a major timesink.I've spent hundreds on this game because I love their work, and frankly, this is broken. As a customer, I don't want to hear we dont have the resources to open an entire mode to a huge playerbase who don't do it.

[Sarrs.4831]

@STIHL.2489 said:Question: Have you ever stopped to consider that it's not personal to them, that they are trying to be a voice for those that either don't have the time or the endurance to be a voice?

No, that's sophistry.

[Sephylon.4938]

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:Ah, the resource argument. The "go to" for anything like this.Fact, Anet releases content quick and fast, they take pride in every aspect of the game. The sheer volume of content they release proves they have the resources to clone and adjust existing content without a major timesink.I've spent hundreds on this game because I love their work, and frankly, this is broken. As a customer, I don't want to hear we dont have the resources to open an entire mode to a huge playerbase who don't do it.

They aren't wrong though, something as simple as an ingame news article has the cost of contenthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38248/the-holo-news-krewe

[Rico.6873]

Make a hologram bot that gives hints and tricks as a gem itemhehehehehehe

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sarrs.4831" said:No, it would; there's a reason there are a lot of people saying "why do raids need an easy mode, they're already easy", it's because they're good at the game. If you become good at the game, it will become easy mode for you. It's a straightforward and practical solution to your problem that requires no developer time.

But the process involved in that is what would make me not enjoy the result. It's like when I got the Ascension, that involved countless hours of awful PvP, until eventually I was done, and while I felt good about getting the reward, I still felt awful about those countless hours wasted not enjoying what I was doing with my life. Time is our most precious resource on Earth. When I tell you that nothing could make me feel good about playing raids as they are currently designed, then just accept that and move on.

He's been making & posting in these threads for years; he certainly hasn't quit, despite no evidence that ANet will or would move their position. Genuinely, if Ohoni put a fraction of the effort he puts towards arguing on the internet into raiding or any of the other content in the game, he would likely have anything he wanted quite quickly.

Sure, but as I said, it would be time wasted in content that I couldn't possibly enjoy. By comparison, working for change via the forums is much more convenient to my lifestyle, since I can do other things at the same time and don't need to be on my gaming PC.

@"Sykper.6583" said:Answer: There would be no justifiable way for Ohoni to prove such. I could just as easily make the counter-claim that I represent literally 90% of the players in-game, and the only method which to prove that claim is for me to bring out all 90% of those players who can say I represent them. It's not practical nor logical to just assume you represent any part of the gaming populace. No one player does, this poll does not, even some of the 3rd party websites don't have ALL the data, only plausible correlations and trends that can't be verified by any standard.

And I would accept that reasoning, if people weren't constantly accusing me of being "selfish" for asking for these changes. I can't prove that there are large majorities that share my views, but there is at least more evidence of that than there is that I'm the only one interested in these changes. I'm fighting for what I believe to be a positive change for the game as a whole, whether you agree with me on that or not, and while I can't prove that there are massed behind me, neither can any of you prove that there are masses behind you, so all the gatekeepers are being no less selfish in pushing their own agendas. That's just something we all have to get past in any such discussion, we can only guess what other people might think about the game.

[STIHL.2489]

One of things I have learned, is that I am never the only one.

But at this point, it is not relevant what other posters think, the only thing that matters is what Anet has put forth, and that is they have no plans to revise Raids.

As such, there is no discussion here, there is only petty bickering.

[Teamkiller.4315]

So how exactly do you know you couldn't possibly enjoy raids when you've invested so little time into trying to find an interest in them? Didn't you say you don't give up? Why did you give up on trying to enjoy raids so soon?

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:They added a brand new one soon after PoF launched, and also a new one a few months before it launched. It's possible that either of those were attractive to new players.

They released it with Episode 1 of LS4, 3 months later. The raidwing before was in Episode 4 in LS3 (not 'few months', over half a year before PoF). There were almost 10 months between those raids. In this time open world got 3 LS Episodes and an expansion release.

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:Ah, the resource argument. The "go to" for anything like this.Fact, Anet releases content quick and fast, they take pride in every aspect of the game. The sheer volume of content they release proves they have the resources to clone and adjust existing content without a major timesink.I've spent hundreds on this game because I love their work, and frankly, this is broken. As a customer, I don't want to hear we dont have the resources to open an entire mode to a huge playerbase who don't do it.

There are a lot of people in any mode that complain about slow releases. Raids are especially slow. Between Wing 3 and 4 were 8 months, between 4 und 5 almost 10. That is far away from fast.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:They added a brand new one soon after PoF launched, and also a new one a few months before it launched. It's possible that either of those were attractive to new players.

They released it with Episode 1 of LS4, 3 months later. The raidwing before was in Episode 4 in LS3 (not 'few months', over half a year before PoF). There were almost 10 months between those raids. In this time open world got 3 LS Episodes and an expansion release.

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:Ah, the resource argument. The "go to" for anything like this.Fact, Anet releases content quick and fast, they take pride in every aspect of the game. The sheer volume of content they release proves they have the resources to clone and adjust existing content without a major timesink.I've spent hundreds on this game because I love their work, and frankly, this is broken. As a customer, I don't want to hear we dont have the resources to open an entire mode to a huge playerbase who don't do it.

There are a lot of people in any mode that complain about slow releases. Raids are especially slow. Between Wing 3 and 4 were 8 months, between 4 und 5 almost 10. That is far away from fast.

So how many people do you think have completely cleared out the raid rewards already?

[STIHL.2489]

How do people know they don't enjoy getting hit in the head with a hammer, and if they don't like it at the start, maybe they are not trying hard enough to enjoy it?

Bad Logic is Bad.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less.

A little, sure, but not enough to justify not

wanting

them to have that thing.

I don't mind you having that thing. I just want you to put the same effort everyone else did. It is only fair.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less.

A little, sure, but not enough to justify not

wanting

them to have that thing.

I don't mind you

having

that thing. I just want you to put the same effort everyone else did. It is only fair.

I see that reasoning as being overly convenient, as it kills two birds with one stone. You can claim that it's "fair," but only because it is a situation that already favors you, it provides you with the reward for doing something you would want to do anyway.

Why can't you, instead of being fine with me earning the item in a way you would enjoy, you "allow" me to earn the item in a way that I would enjoy as much as you did?

It's like if my favorite food is chicken, and your favorite food is burgers, and your policy is "well, I don't mind if you have as much food as you like, so long as it's all burgers." Works fine for you, but it would never work out for me, either I'd have no food, or I'd have your favorite food, never mine. Why can't you just be satisfied with "Feanor can eat burgers all he wants, and Ohoni can eat chicken all I like, and we can both be happy eating the things we like?

I'm willing to put in a comparable amount of time and effort, I'm not asking for any sort of handout, I just want it to be time and effort spent in an activity that I would enjoy as much as you enjoy the existing raids. I don't understand why you find that idea so objectionable, unless it is about trying to keep the rewards out of other players hands.