Are Meta Builds better than all other builds at ALL levels of play? Is there such a thing as Builds that counter Meta Builds?

[EnderzShadow.2506]

I'm curious what you the PvP community thinks about this. 

Do Meta Builds play as successfully at Plat as they do at silver, Gold1 and Gold 3? Is it possible that a different build would carry harder at lower levels?

I've ran into some very good players that claim they make their build to counter the meta builds. Is that really a thing?"

I'm very interested to see what you think

 

[asket.5674]

Yes, yes, yes and yes. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The meta at different skill levels is going to be different. For example power chrono and LB untamed are pretty terrible in lower ranks, but at high ranks they are meta. Same applies to AT vs ranked, different metas because different levels of coordination.

You can kind of make off meta counter the meta, but its only really going to be good at that 1 thing so you are better off playing the same meta and outplaying your opponents.

[Buran.3796]

   Meta builds which offer value relying in coordination are way weaker in pug games than meta builds which are good due played at high skill are outstanding on their own. As example: Untamed can be good at any level as long as is played well, whereas support Guard is useless if your team activelly avoids your help (fleing from your heals, constantly moving outside the range at which you aply your boons, etc).

[Gotejjeken.1267]

For the actual topic at hand, for me, you can play anything up until about g3 as long as you know it well--after, you do need something that is meta or has tools to fight meta / carry. 

This has been my experience playing the same Druid build I have forever now--it can do a lot of things well but don't think it is plat viable because it's also pretty easy to shut down and went from a straight sidenode decap build to a +1 because of various nerfs.  So, each season I top out at around 1470-1480 as really not that important for me to gain ranks anymore.

As an aside, don't think LB untamed has been meta for a bit now; all the memer's are onto staff/dagger bunkers.    

[bethekey.8314]

3 hours ago, EnderzShadow.2506 said:

I'm curious what you the PvP community thinks about this. 

Do Meta Builds play as successfully at Plat as they do at silver, Gold1 and Gold 3? Is it possible that a different build would carry harder at lower levels?

I've ran into some very good players that claim they make their build to counter the meta builds. Is that really a thing?"

I'm very interested to see what you think

I need you to post again to get 1000 total and then stop posting forever.

If a non-meta build counters meta builds well enough, it becomes a meta build 🙂

Edited November 5, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

38 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I need you to post again to get 1000 total and then stop posting forever.

If a non-meta build counters meta builds well enough, it becomes a meta build 🙂

On an entirely separate note  can you hurry up and post 160 more times?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910
Jesting of course :P

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

On an entirely separate note  can you hurry up and post 160 more times?

I would actually do something like this

Edited November 5, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Khalisto.5780]

up to 1350 game is just a spam fest, i usually play something completely different if need to climb back to g3+

I usually play an aoe spammer high mobility build

when I get close to 1500 rating ppl do an absurd amount of dmg compared to mid 1450-, so i just get a more bunkerish build to not feed and luckly troll players that are mechanically better than me, it's up to them push me and lose value in the game, if I survive naru or grimjack for like a min or so or I force a plus to get killed things usually go well for my team.

[RedAvenged.5217]

meta builds are just copy pasted from mAts, which no one takes seriously, and get posted to metabattle.

their moderators are silver players and morons, nothing they declare shoudl be taken seriously.

try asking a top teir player what you  should play

 

[EnderzShadow.2506]

2 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

meta builds are just copy pasted from mAts, which no one takes seriously, and get posted to metabattle.

their moderators are silver players and morons, nothing they declare shoudl be taken seriously.

try asking a top teir player what you  should play

 

I posed these same questions to an in game acquaintance I've known for a long time. Since release he's always been somewhere in the top 100.

And in his own words, he pretty much said the same thing you did. So what I take away, they aren't the end all be all builds. Someone partnered with Anet and played it on a stream and up on the boards it goes. What's annoying, is that randos, since I've been playing, will always just point to metabattle.

[shion.2084]

On 11/5/2023 at 1:08 PM, EnderzShadow.2506 said:

I'm curious what you the PvP community thinks about this. 

Do Meta Builds play as successfully at Plat as they do at silver, Gold1 and Gold 3? Is it possible that a different build would carry harder at lower levels?

I've ran into some very good players that claim they make their build to counter the meta builds. Is that really a thing?"

I'm very interested to see what you think

 

Meta builds tend to be meta in the hands of top tier players.  This sometimes translates to the best build for lower tier players and other times not.   It depends how complicated the meta build is to play and what it takes to get the most out of it.  This can include things like other players understanding how to leverage your meta build (ie. if a support build is meta, its not going to do very well in a silver game where no-one gets how to take advantage of someone providing support).

In terms of playing against a meta build with a counter that isn't itself meta... yeah that exists.   For instance if someone is a better nades meta engineer than me, I'll sometimes switch my shredder gyro to bulwark.  The reason is bulwark provides stability and eliminates nades from working.  Also when their engi goes to spike me, I can use bulwark to bump up my health and drop a field that cancels nades.  So now my build doesn't farm as hard without that shredder gyro, but I can shutdown one specific player who's normally better than me at the meta version of the build.    I can also opt to run rune of scrapper over dragon hunter to ensure I survive the first big burst and have space to counter.   Errr not sure if that makes sense to you.

I also take great glee in running a mortar build against other nade engi's.   it gives up nades for bulwark, and takes mortar for range.  I get more quickness uptime, a bit of survivability, stability.  So a nades engi who is smart will have to play a midrange game against me and won't want to close.   Anyway yeah you can build for specific folks who are better than you and farm you with meta and go a bit more tanky, or take things like condi removal you wouldn't normally grab.   I adjust all the time.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by shion.2084

[Gamble.4580]

Yes mate. Allthough they are 5v5 focused and ranked for conquest focused masterding just one of them u can switch to when u see its a 5v5 game cus both team has players. Playi g metabattle classes plat and above will help u climb. If u dont play scoreboard just play what u want.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Gamble.4580

[Kuma.1503]

Do meta builds play as successfully in low ranks as they do in high ranks?

Sometimes. DPS and duelist builds that work well in high level play tend to work well in low level play as well. Support builds can work, but they're a coin flip. You need a semi-competent team behind you to make them work. 

 

Do counters to meta builds exist?

Also yes. Using engineer as an example. The meta DPS scrapper has 3 key weaknesses. 

1. Low stab/stunbreak access. 

2. Limited  cleanse. (Cleanses 1 condi at a time on toolbelt usage)

3. Projectile hate shuts down nade pressure. 

 

If your build can capitalize on any of these weaknesses it can serve as a counter. A good tempest shuts down a nade scrapper's pressure in teamfights.

Warriors destroy engis 1v1 because they're durable enough to survive your burst, stunlock you into oblivion, and will force you to kite off node for ages just to get anything done. Even if you eventually chip them down from range while avoiding their stuns, they'll have held node for so long you wasted your time. 

 

It's also worth noting that builds can counter each other only in specific contexts. Just because a build counters you 1v1, it does not necessarily counter you 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5. Your allies picks can help offset your bad matchups. The scrapper for example might lose to a condi necro 1v1, but roll over them 2v2 with a good support. 

Some builds scale up into larger fights better than others. Some destroy you on node, but hard lose off-node. Thieves are theoretically the most broken 1v1 class. If they didn't have to stand on a tiny node to make progress. In low ranks, you frequently see thieves decapping and then baiting people into fights off node. And of course, when you team falls for it they end up solo winning the game because you have 3 very smart individuals chasing a theif they cannot catch around the map. 

 

In conclusion. Counterpicks exist, but how you play around them is arguably more important than what you choose to play. Especially in lower ranks where mistakes and bad rotations are common. 

 

 

[Vinny.7260]

You don't have to be meta to be effective.

There are ways to make your build work, within the realm of reality anyway.

 

There are people who have fun with things like Air Tempest, Support Scrapper, etc etc.

They provide unique situations that can throw people off.

 

All META really does is provide a standard and something to work with that is proven to work.

It also depends on the tier level you're looking at and what you're expecting.

 

Meta is mostly a reliable thing to look towards and what everyone else expects. You'll get hate mail if you're playing FB or a DPS Tempest- but are you having fun?

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

Meta builds tend to have the most amount of favorable/even matchups and minimal bad matchups, but off meta builds can def counter a meta build, or even just a build higher on the tier list.