Expanded Weapon Proficiencies: Dual-Wielding Mace Ranger

[DarkFlopy.8197]

It looks like you cannot play them separately like only main hand or only offhand, it feels like you are relaying on that AA chain to get the stacking buff so you are forced to play both main hand and offhand at the same time, no variety allowed...

But again we didn't try anything ourselves yet, its going to be a beta, things can change until release... hopefully...

[Maekrix Waere.2087]

I am utterly disappointed that Mace Ambush is not a healing skill.  Heal Untamed really wants a second healing ambush to be freed from having to run double staff and now you're introducing a new support mainhand and instead of an ambush to really help out a new, fledgling build... we get damage and immobilize on a healing weapon.  I cannot understand it.  The rest of the mainhand's kit looks pretty underwhelming, too.

 

The offhand stuff looks fine, but it could really stand to be uncoupled from the Nature's Strength mechanic since it seems unlikely you'll actually be able to proc it without pairing the maces together, which means that offhand mace will probably never be able to truly stand on it's own.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

3 hours ago, Maekrix Waere.2087 said:

I am utterly disappointed that Mace Ambush is not a healing skill.  Heal Untamed really wants a second healing ambush to be freed from having to run double staff and now you're introducing a new support mainhand and instead of an ambush to really help out a new, fledgling build... we get damage and immobilize on a healing weapon.  I cannot understand it.  The rest of the mainhand's kit looks pretty underwhelming, too.

I feel like the problem is that no gear was equipped to see what the actual heal/damage/boons/barrier would look like.

Also, the preview didn't showcase a 'rotation' of sorts to see how well mace offhand and mainhand plays out in terms of supporting.

It could be the case that the weapon as a whole doesn't make sense from a support point of view for untamed. Especially when, like you say, the mace ambush doesn't provide heals.

I guess we'll have to test it ourselves.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I don't understand the stacking fascination the current devs have.  Nourys doesn't work, this won't work.

Why, as a ranger do I want yet another set of fluff CDs to worry about? Why would you ever put a 'time out' mechanic on a weapon of all things?!

Also, how do you actually trigger the stacks? They say in the stream the auto won't do it, but it makes it seem like it won't do it right away but if you keep auto-attacking it will expend them? It's the same nonsense they have with unleashed ambushes that you have an ICD and then a controllable variant with a different CD if you trait it (Let Loose), and tracking both becomes a nightmare.  Now you need to track THREE on Untamed (current ambush timer, pet swap ambush, and now weapon stack...ambush...thing).  

The 1s of stab on the offhand is also hilarious.  You have a weapon where you need 'thoughtful timing' in the same stream you have warrior who has yet another full counter mechanic in bullet catcher where stuff just happens while they channel it.  

The 5 skill I don't understand either--have they not learned the 'expanding effects' and 'double explosions' absolutely are trash on hammer? How exactly are we supposed to lock people down again to get them to stay in a 3-5s long channeled skill? 

Does any of this interact with traits in any way? I'm guessing not, since ambidexterity is condition based, two bow specific traits (glad to see all the new condi weapons just auto-pierce while we still have to trait for that), an axe specific trait, and 2H training which is essentially GS specific.

Maybe trait interactions will come in Fall 2024 and pet interactions...never? Like seriously, seemingly every other ranger weapon mentions the pet in one way or another---here...nothing...

[Silvoshipnos.2089]

53 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

pet interactions...never? Like seriously, seemingly every other ranger weapon mentions the pet in one way or another---here...nothing...

Hammer doesn't have one either. I think the Devs forgot it ever existed. I would have liked for it to become a more defined mechanic, in the way that symbols or phantasms are for guardian and mesmer respectively.

They could have made traits that grant double the effect, condi cleanse when you use them, anything! But we're the least favourite child out of a family of 9.

[CETheLucid.3964]

8 hours ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

It looks like you cannot play them separately like only main hand or only offhand, it feels like you are relaying on that AA chain to get the stacking buff so you are forced to play both main hand and offhand at the same time, no variety allowed...

But again we didn't try anything ourselves yet, its going to be a beta, things can change until release... hopefully...

This was my concern also. Maybe mace off-and is the most conducive to that but I don't think you'll be able to get the grace of the land buff with just one. Not sure.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

pet interactions...never? Like seriously, seemingly every other ranger weapon mentions the pet in one way or another---here...nothing...

That's a good point too.

27 minutes ago, Silvoshipnos.2089 said:

But we're the least favourite child out of a family of 9.

Still not the worst reveal so far. I think a lot of it will be cleared up once we get hands on with it.

[Fueki.4753]

Together with Guardian's Pistols, Ranger's Maces look the most fun to play with, just like it looked from the teaser videos.

[DarkFlopy.8197]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

just like it looked from the teaser videos.

There is a big difference between practical and theory.

For example if you make a video like they did showcasing all the pets it would seem epic and amazing but in practice +90% are useless.

Against a standing target (for example target golem) yes I can agree it might be fun, against a target that move and/or think... There are many flaws in the weapons design.

Hope stuff will change until it's release...

Edited November 28, 2023 by DarkFlopy.8197

[Fueki.4753]

51 minutes ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

There is a big difference between practical and theory.

For example if you make a video like they did showcasing all the pets it would seem epic and amazing but in practice +90% are useless.

Against a standing target (for example target golem) yes I can agree it might be fun, against a target that move and/or think... There are many flaws in the weapons design.

Hope stuff will change until it's release...

That's why I wrote that it looks like it'll be fun to me.

Until later today (or tomorrow, if I won't play the test in the evening), I won't know, if I will actually have fun playing with the Maces.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Also, how do you actually trigger the stacks? They say in the stream the auto won't do it, but it makes it seem like it won't do it right away but if you keep auto-attacking it will expend them?

The way it seems to work is that the effect triggers when you reach 6 stacks, but the autoattack can't get you past 5 stacks on its own. So if you have 5 stacks from autoattacking, using any other skill will trigger it. Ideally, though, you'd want to have all your other skills on cooldown so you get the benefit of the refresh. I think the 5 skill also has the potential to apply more than one stack, so you can probably faceroll 2-5 and it will trigger, and then faceroll right back again, then switch weapon.

Not saying that I necessarily think that's good design, but that seems to be how it works.

[kharmin.7683]

17 hours ago, Silvoshipnos.2089 said:

I feel that the maces are designed for PvP/WvW untamed. Not that exciting.

For a game that (allegedly) is target toward a casual, OW audience at 12 years old and up, yeah.  A lot of recent things have been more for the competitive aspects of MMOs.  I firmly believe that HoT and all that came with it was designed for raiding since raids were released then.  PoF was for the PvP crowd and now the latest few releases have been a mis-match of awkward skills and changes that seem to be more interested in competitive gaming and  don't really have a home in OW.

So, yeah, I've not really been excited about things for a while being a very casual OW player.  But, that's me.  /shrug

[Maekrix Waere.2087]

10 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I feel like the problem is that no gear was equipped to see what the actual heal/damage/boons/barrier would look like.

Also, the preview didn't showcase a 'rotation' of sorts to see how well mace offhand and mainhand plays out in terms of supporting.

It could be the case that the weapon as a whole doesn't make sense from a support point of view for untamed. Especially when, like you say, the mace ambush doesn't provide heals.

I guess we'll have to test it ourselves.

I mean, that's fair, but I'm also trying to take it into account.  From a support perspective, I'm asking what Mace can offer Untamed over a second staff.  From what I see, it offers some vigor on the autoattack, two(one?) pulses of healing and some regen on the 2, and some protection on the 3.  I will also be fair and say that, if mace is viable, it *also* offers Fury, Might, Swiftness, and (if traited) regen from Warhorn 5.

And I will admit that that is a good amount of stuff, but there's two questions there... a: if the numbers can compete with being able to drop a second Solar Brilliance and b: why am I not just bringing a druid with Mace, then?  Because I will definitely be using mace on Druid.  Heal Alac Druid uses Axe/Warhorn right now, and, for what it wants to be doing, Mace is certainly just going to be better than Axe by virtue of actually having any healing and group boons on it at all.  So that's a boost to Druid, which means Untamed doesn't just have to be able to use Mace to stay on par with where it already is, it has to be significantly better than where it is right now to be able to compete with the second boonheal build within the same profession which also uses the same gear stats.

I will admit that calling mainhand Mace underwhelming probably isn't super fair when looking at ranger as a whole.  It looks like it's about on par with Mechanist mace, but with more boon+healing support in exchange for losing the conditions.  Druid will love it, and I hope that it does manage to be good in competitive... but, for my baby quickheal Untamed, a second healing ambush would have been amazing for it, putting it probably at least close to on-par with Druid.  And I can admit that my disappointment over not getting that; over seeing my favorite new build of this expansion almost certainly relegated to remain mediocre within the healing build space, has colored a lot of my view here.  Mainhand Mace looks fine.  Maybe even good.  It's definitely a buff for Druid, but I just feel there was so much potential missed to make quickheal Untamed able to really shine.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Maekrix Waere.2087

[Beddo.1907]

First look thoughts time:
1. Damage numbers seem good and team vigor is really good. Works for both DPS and Sup.
2. Damage numbers seem good, perma regen even with 0 boon duration is good, healing is fine for a 6s CD. Radius should be raised to 240 at least, other than that works for DPS and Sup.
3. Damage numbers are ok for a CC skill, 1/3 to 2/3 prot uptime is decent. Movement range could be better, cause it falls flat compared to mobility these days.
4. Damage doesn't disrupt DPS when used instead of AA, overall pretty well rounded personal defensive skill. Doesn't look like it needs anything changed so far.
5. Feels like miniature Whirling Defense -the defence +CC. Damage is good, but feels like it's missing something. Might be better with a boon or barrier per slam. 
Nature's Strength is pretty difficult to control the timing, but even without trying to control it, it has some value. Needs further testing to see how it does in rotations.

[Bealis.6023]

Hello would have a some feedback on Nature's Strength stacks and Force of Nature specifically.

1. It feels too convoluted - kinda too much to think about those stacks together with 3 triggers ranger can have, CC skills effects, pet skills effects etc. My suggestion to that would be to remove Force of Nature alltogether and add a % bonus to damage and healing instead with each stack of Nature's Strength, for example 4% with each stack.

2. It is unpractical - as it is now, you basically need to triger-bash mace skills in order to get the buff, but on the detriment of situational skill effects, like Thisleguard which gives just a second or so of Stability. Also effect of Force of Nature is too short to make a bigger use of. My suggestion would be for Force of Nature to last longer, at least +5s, and reducing the damage and healing bonus a little. So when you commit it is worth it.

3. When you use only off-hand mace, Force of Nature effect is basically redundant, since you hardly get it with 6 stacks. Solution to that would be to decrease a numer of stacks needed, lets say 4 and increase the time when the active stacks are on by a few seconds +decrease damage/healing bonus (to 18% ?)

I belive at least one (or combination of)  of  these solutions would make it better.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Full rundown of the pros & cons of mace/mace in competitive post 11/28 beta here at the bottom of the post:

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Maekrix Waere.2087 said:

I mean, that's fair, but I'm also trying to take it into account.  From a support perspective, I'm asking what Mace can offer Untamed over a second staff.  From what I see, it offers some vigor on the autoattack, two(one?) pulses of healing and some regen on the 2, and some protection on the 3.  I will also be fair and say that, if mace is viable, it *also* offers Fury, Might, Swiftness, and (if traited) regen from Warhorn 5.

And I will admit that that is a good amount of stuff, but there's two questions there... a: if the numbers can compete with being able to drop a second Solar Brilliance and b: why am I not just bringing a druid with Mace, then?  Because I will definitely be using mace on Druid.  Heal Alac Druid uses Axe/Warhorn right now, and, for what it wants to be doing, Mace is certainly just going to be better than Axe by virtue of actually having any healing and group boons on it at all.  So that's a boost to Druid, which means Untamed doesn't just have to be able to use Mace to stay on par with where it already is, it has to be significantly better than where it is right now to be able to compete with the second boonheal build within the same profession which also uses the same gear stats.

I will admit that calling mainhand Mace underwhelming probably isn't super fair when looking at ranger as a whole.  It looks like it's about on par with Mechanist mace, but with more boon+healing support in exchange for losing the conditions.  Druid will love it, and I hope that it does manage to be good in competitive... but, for my baby quickheal Untamed, a second healing ambush would have been amazing for it, putting it probably at least close to on-par with Druid.  And I can admit that my disappointment over not getting that; over seeing my favorite new build of this expansion almost certainly relegated to remain mediocre within the healing build space, has colored a lot of my view here.  Mainhand Mace looks fine.  Maybe even good.  It's definitely a buff for Druid, but I just feel there was so much potential missed to make quickheal Untamed able to really shine.

It's definitely fair criticism, I think - mainhand mace is clearly intended to be healing-oriented, so giving it a healing ambush could be the cherry on top that makes untamed healer a true contender. Seems pretty obvious to me now that it's been said.

[ilMasa.2546]

Actually having a blast with the mace in WvW, i love the built-in mechanic

[Squigglez.1236]

To my surprise M/M ranger is probably the most fun of all the weapon sets in the beta. I enjoy hammer soulbeast and M/M feels like an extension of that with it's slam attacks. It's less damage than S/A but gives defensive boons, lets you give yourself barrier, has more cc, and only has one forced movement skill. The force of nature mechanic seemed off when I read about it but given soulbeast already tries to stack their damage in One wolf pack and Sic 'Em it feels like just another addition to your burst. It may not end up the best possible dps choice but if it's workable I may end up using these instead of S/A in open world at least.

[kharmin.7683]

6 hours ago, Squigglez.1236 said:

To my surprise M/M ranger is probably the most fun of all the weapon sets in the beta.

I felt the same way and I really didn't want M/M (and am still not really in favor of it).  To me, that says a lot about the other professions' new expanded weapons.

[Mewsha.3561]

I wasn't really a fan of dual wielding mace, but then again I'm not a hardcore PvP enjoyer so maybe it feels better there. I mainly stick to PvE and what I will say is they surpassed my expectations for support Druid. That build has come so far in just the last 6 months, and mace with warhorn feels like the cherry on top, so kudos there. I tried to duel wield mace as support and it just left me missing my warhorn.

Outside of Druid, I'm looking into sword and mace instead of my sword and axe for my Power Soulbeast build. I really enjoy the 4 and 5 skills on the mace. I think it does fulfill that bruiser fantasy for Ranger mains.

[kiwituatara.6053]

On 11/28/2023 at 9:42 AM, Silvoshipnos.2089 said:

I feel that the maces are designed for PvP/WvW untamed. Not that exciting.

I play WvW and I feel the maces were designed for pve 😂. It doesn't feel good in WvW at all

[aymnad.9023]

edit : oups copying feedback in the correct section

Edited December 3, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Raven.8156]

After playing around with the maces:

1. Ambush skill on Mace 1 should be an AOE heal. 

2. The healing flow isn't very consistent outside of the Druid spec. The auto-attack chain could have some additional healing incorporated into one of the chain skills, perhaps on Burgeon. 

3. Force of Nature: The sudden enlargement of the character is kind of distracting/jarring, considering the duration isn't very long. might be better to forego that effect or replace it with a simpler visual cue.

[Artemis.8034]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:36 AM, kharmin.7683 said:

For a game that (allegedly) is target toward a casual, OW audience at 12 years old and up, yeah.  A lot of recent things have been more for the competitive aspects of MMOs.  I firmly believe that HoT and all that came with it was designed for raiding since raids were released then.  PoF was for the PvP crowd and now the latest few releases have been a mis-match of awkward skills and changes that seem to be more interested in competitive gaming and  don't really have a home in OW.

So, yeah, I've not really been excited about things for a while being a very casual OW player.  But, that's me.  /shrug

I have to disagree here, they def are not targeting raiders  those modes have been all but abandoned by anet. If you knew how many boss fights literally bug out and cant be done you would understand how they have turned their back on raids. Everything they are putting out seems to be like they have no direction, and most likely the devs are not the same ones from before. You know you can have a good game with more than one game mode, yes? OW is the staple its true but wvw is large, and raids are still popular even though they have been left to rot by developers that thought strikes would become the new hotness. But there is a vast variety of people that play, and really they need to support their game modes. But i will agree with the whole wth are they doing line of thought, imo its all about squishing everyone into a tighter melee dog pile, and lack of ranged, they even said it makes it easier to balance. But all these years later they still have issues even with the melee pile idea. You would think as a game progresses there would be more variety ranged and melee, but this is just looking like less variety because its easier to develop that way. Its getting old i miss playing ranged and the visual vomit on large fights just frustrates me to no end.  I still dont know what some meta bosses look like or see their animations or spells! Enough already with melee melee melee!

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

Just food for thought, How do you think a Soulbeast with a support mace work with healing since it gets 25% healing to others player + all the other % healing to other players.