Expanded Weapon Proficiencies: Dual-Wielding Mace Ranger

[Frozey.8513]

23 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

First, I said "at the moment", so you can clear out all of those 'soons' (if anything, that just demonstrates why half of the new ranged weapons are on the professions they are, although thief axe being ranged did surprise me). In this sort of discussion, I also think in terms of mainhands and two-handed weapons, not offhands, since to have a ranged playstyle an offhand needs to be combined with a ranged mainhand weapon. Apparently I forgot to specify that in the specific post, but I think I at least strongly implied it earlier in the thread. So ele, engi, warrior, and rev count, and that's half. If one is going to be picky over the details, engi also has kits that can functionally act as additional weapon options.

The flatbow/longbow/hornbow/shortbow distinction, while not completely insignificant, isn't even a patch on the differences between weapons in GW2.

(Addendum: And let's be real here, ArenaNet wanting to give ranger two sets of bow skills is probably the only reason we have "longbow" and "shortbow" instead of just "bow" to begin with. Every other profession only has one or the other, if not for ranger they could very easily have just gone with "bow" and saved themselves a skin every time they introduce a new set of weapons.)

Axe is a hybrid weapon - it works perfectly fine on power builds with longbow. Skills 2 and 3 have a bit of condition damage, but still have decent coefficients, and it combines well with warhorn. It's generally not considered the optimal choice since you usually get a bit more damage and/or survivability by having a melee weapon on one of your swaps, but this is 1) how weaponswapping was supposed to work and 2) far more realistic than swapping between two bows. However, there are builds that run a power melee weapon like greatsword and axe on the other swap, so axe is clearly a practical power option.

And if your competition is just engineer then, well, what do you expect? The tech profession is naturally going to have guns and such! Except... scrapper utilities are made to primarily cater for a melee playstyle, the only popular scrapper build I know of that isn't at least partially melee if a flamethrower WvW roaming build and I'm not sure if that's actually "popular". Holosmith practically demands it - there's a trait that gives a short range autoattack in holoforge, but apart from the holopistols the other skills are still melee-oriented. While mechanist is going to be pulled into melee for Mechanical Genius unless they're using Spark Revolver (not to mention that offhand pistol is optimised for point-blank range). In practice, ranger is still the monarch of pewpew.

See above.

But in the meantime, there are other, equally valid interpretations that fit roles and playstyles that are not already covered by existing weapons.

I note you cut out the "and not overpowered" part. They were always a bit niche and gimmicky, only entering the mainstream when something came out that was overpowered. (Also, IWAY hardly counts since the whole point of IWAY was to let the pets die in order to "avenge" them.)

And as it turns out, meta ranger builds tend to also use the historically sensible option of having a ranged set and a melee set, in part so they can use one when the other is not practical, and in part because ranger's defensive tools tend to be on melee weapons. Running shortbow/axe or longbow/axe is still viable, though. It's just not generally optimal.

And, as previously discussed, a nature-powered melee fighter (or ranged fighter with a melee backup) is a perfectly valid interpretation. The maces also provide sustain, healing, and defensive options, which are things people have been asking for, while rifle or pistol will probably just be another pewpew damage option.

They're just starting off with a new business model that's intended to be sustainable in the long term, so unless SotO was a complete flop (I don't think it was...), I don't think we need to be concerned about GW2 going in maintenance mode for GW3 any time soon.

A few:

Around release, ArenaNet talked about how, while all professions were available to all races for PCs, they had their own table on how common the combinations were that was used as a guide for creating NPCs. They never actually released this, but necromancer and engineer being rare for sylvari were cited as examples. You can see this in the world, however - very few sylvari NPCs are engineers, and very few necromancers outside of the Nightmare Court (I think they're all named special NPCs in both cases).

The Pale Tree comments about charr a couple of times, such as describing them as 'causing devastation' in the Dream and Nightmare story - while the worst of it that we see is Flame Legion deliberate poisoning, Iron Legion industry is not always nature-friendly either. Asura in both games have a tendency to show contempt for nature to the point of seeking to actively remove it when it's inconvenient, and not especially caring when their experiments have harmful effects on their surroundings (particularly, but not exclusively, the Inquest). Rangers of both races might well be exceptions to that general rule. There's nothing lorewise that says that rangers of any race can't pick up a gun and use it (apart from general statements ArenaNet has made about rangers being more close to nature and therefore conservative about their weapons), but the same can be said about melee weapons too, and mace-using rangers may well be more common overall than gun-using rangers. This is, after all, a setting where bows are competitive against guns, so a competent bow-user who is aided by nature spirits might not feel the need to use guns outside of functions that a bow absolutely cannot match (which would explain charr racial skills for charr rangers).

A sword is still better than a gun with no ammo. Machetes have a variety of uses, but clearing foliage in order to make a path is a common one, and a sword or greatsword would also be effective at that.

Halfswording is a historical technique for longer swords that involve pretty much, well, using it as a spear with one hand on the blade (some historical swords even had unsharpened portions of the blade specifically for this, although holding a sharp blade with the hand is possible to do without cutting yourself if you know what you're doing). Even a one-handed sword held point-first would still be pretty effective against most animals apart from charging boars. And I can think of some threats in the wild where a sword or certain designs of what GW2 calls a mace would actually be the most effective weapon, such as venomous snakes.

>First, I said "at the moment", so you can clear out all of those 'soons'

Yet as I said, only Ele and Engi count if we purely look at the ranged weapons, especially the ones that could potentially get main hand version too later. Moreover this is literally going to be old information very shortly anyway, so I don’t really see the point in arguing for this as it’s literally just about to change.

>The flatbow/longbow/hornbow/shortbow distinction, while not completely insignificant, isn't even a patch on the differences between weapons in GW2.

Guild Wars had arguably better weapon customization variety, as you could fully choose every skill you wanted to include with them. If you wanted to, you could even not pick up any and just fully focus on other things. Guild Wars 2 however, doesn’t offer this luxury as weapons come with set skills and set ranges that we have no control over.

>if not for ranger they could very easily have just gone with "bow" and saved themselves a skin every time they introduce a new set of weapons

Let me remind you that underwater weapons exist if we are talking about useless skins.

>Axe is a hybrid weapon - it works perfectly fine on power builds

Just because it works doesn’t mean it’s optimal. Just because something is viable doesn’t mean people strive to use it if there are clearly better options available. It’s exactly how Revenant shortbow, while being a full-on condition weapon, is ‘viable’ for power builds just for the sake of how bad Revenant hammer is at the moment. Same applies for Axe here, just that there is no power alternative at all.

>In practice, ranger is still the monarch of pewpew.

Overall state of pewpew is so bad, that no class offers your full on pewpew gameplay experience. There are no optimal ranger builds that focus solely on going only bows. Neither are there on other classes. Maybe Engineer getting the shortbow will make Engi the king of pew pew as they can then easily camp on that weapon the whole time.

The issue can be resolved by fixing ranger by bringing it back to what it was capable of doing in Guild Wars, or just giving up on Ranger and making a completely new Archer class to cater for pewpew gameplay.

>But in the meantime, there are other, equally valid interpretations

There are not. Over a decade of magic and melee weapons is too much for a class that is by heart bows and arrows.

>IWAY hardly counts since the whole point of IWAY was to let the pets die in order to "avenge" them

You initially argued that pets were not really worth using. IWAY is perfect example of creativity that players could use pets for. Sure there were good Rampage as One builds too, but IWAY is arguably most creative way to use pets in Guild Wars.  

>Running shortbow/axe or longbow/axe is still viable, though. It's just not generally optimal.

See the 4^th paragraph.

>while rifle or pistol will probably just be another pewpew damage option

Rifle and pistols that people have been asking for will give pewpew Ranger finally chance to be optimal after having to have been as backup weapon for decade.

>I don't think we need to be concerned about GW2 going in maintenance mode for GW3 any time soon.

Guild Wars didn’t go on maintenance for Guild Wars 2. It’s highly likely that Guild Wars 3 will be launched on the side as Guild Wars 2 starts to hit the wall with issues like no new weapons or races having been added to the game ever, and the ever increasing in game bugs seemingly not being easy and quick to resolve for the developers.

>They never actually released this, but necromancer and engineer being rare for sylvari were cited as examples.

So there is no actual source and it has nothing to do with what kind of races players are picking for their classes. Sylvari Engineers and Charr Rangers exist, so Ranger with gunpowder clearly is very lore friendly.

>Machetes have a variety of uses, but clearing foliage in order to make a path is a common one, and a sword or greatsword would also be effective at that.

Good luck trying to hack your way through jungle with a greatsword. Besides if our characters are capable of creating legendary armors through crafting, or able to salvage materials while on the road, surely being able to craft your own ammunition isn’t too farfetched.

>Halfswording is a historical technique for longer swords that involve pretty much, well, using it as a spear with one hand on the blade

As someone who does HEMA, I can assure you that while halfswording is effective to grapple with your armoured opponent in order to guide the tip of your blade in between the gaps in the opponents armour, it is very poor choice for any type of hunting. Spear might keep you at a safe distance from a rampaging boar, but halfswording will certainly put you in harms way, and likely even have you suffer from fatal injury trying to battle the boar with it.

Also why in the world would you even try to fight a snake with a sword or a mace? If you really have to kill one, then using traps would certainly be the best option, as in every other scenario you can avoid the snake.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

Good ol Ranger forums, love seeing posts devolve into anarchy like this.

[kiwituatara.6053]

I can't be bothered reading, has it devolved into rifle vs non-rifle gang again?

[Sirius.4510]

Yup.

Just wait, when ANet runs out of other weapons for the Ranger to get, they'll make it a portal gun.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

Please make Ranger rifle where they just have your character hold it by the barrel and swing it like a club. It would be just the most perfect ending to the argument.

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, Frozey.8513 said:

>First, I said "at the moment", so you can clear out all of those 'soons'

Yet as I said, only Ele and Engi count if we purely look at the ranged weapons, especially the ones that could potentially get main hand version too later. Moreover this is literally going to be old information very shortly anyway, so I don’t really see the point in arguing for this as it’s literally just about to change.

Again, I think it's disingenuous to count offhands that just happen to include a ranged attack in there, especially when you're including examples that are obviously intended to be supporting a melee style. Since every ranger offhand has a ranged attack, one could count all of those to end up with ranger having a much greater variety than most other professions, but I'm sure you can see that any such "ranged offhand" is just going to be a variation of the axe playstyle. And Warrior and Revenant don't even HAVE a mainhand melee weapon to combine with, so any offhand they have is going to be complementing a melee playstyle. Might as well say that guardian sword is ranged because Zealot's Defence exists. So my statement holds: 4/9 professions currently only have 2 ranged weapons available that are capable of autoattacking.

You can say that's about to change... but the overall point is that it makes sense for professions that have fewer ranged options to begin with to have a higher priority to getting more of them than professions that already have a few. And as it turns out, even then, warrior and revenant aren't getting ranged weapons anyway, so they're still going to be at two only. With warrior rifle and revenant hammer both being "you'd only use them if you absolutely HAD to" memes, and at one point the previous balance team admitted that they viewed warrior longbow as a melee weapon even though it has longer range.

23 hours ago, Frozey.8513 said:

>if not for ranger they could very easily have just gone with "bow" and saved themselves a skin every time they introduce a new set of weapons

Let me remind you that underwater weapons exist if we are talking about useless skins.

Let me remind you that ArenaNet didn't intend for underwater combat to be dead content, and most weapon sets haven't been including underwater skins.

23 hours ago, Frozey.8513 said:

>Axe is a hybrid weapon - it works perfectly fine on power builds

Just because it works doesn’t mean it’s optimal. Just because something is viable doesn’t mean people strive to use it if there are clearly better options available. It’s exactly how Revenant shortbow, while being a full-on condition weapon, is ‘viable’ for power builds just for the sake of how bad Revenant hammer is at the moment. Same applies for Axe here, just that there is no power alternative at all.

There are meta power builds that use axe, there just aren't any (currently) that use axe AND longbow. Not every combination of weapons has to be, or even CAN be, optimal. 

23 hours ago, Frozey.8513 said:

>IWAY hardly counts since the whole point of IWAY was to let the pets die in order to "avenge" them

You initially argued that pets were not really worth using. IWAY is perfect example of creativity that players could use pets for. Sure there were good Rampage as One builds too, but IWAY is arguably most creative way to use pets in Guild Wars.  

Using pets purely as bodies to fuel IWAY is only using pets in the most technical sense.

23 hours ago, Frozey.8513 said:

Also why in the world would you even try to fight a snake with a sword or a mace? If you really have to kill one, then using traps would certainly be the best option, as in every other scenario you can avoid the snake.

Because you weren't planning on running into a snake, but happened to come across one? A blade or heavy implement can quickly behead it or crush it as a reflexive action. You're right in that halfswording wouldn't be as effective at fending off an animal as a spear, but it's not the only option you have, and it's more useful than a gun without ammunition or a bayonet. And early bayonets were... basically knives or swords that could be attached to a musket, many of which could be wielded independently in a pinch.

I'm not responding to most of the rest because I'm tiring of the endless rebuttal argument, but to summarise:

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that you're interpretation of "ranger" as being a "physical ranged damage dealer" is the only valid interpretation.

This is absolutely not the case. It might have been in Guild Wars 1, but Guild Wars 1 professions were built on the basis that individual professions were very tightly focused and that you used secondary professions to explore more complex themes. Guild Wars 2, by contrast, doesn't have multiclassing, and thus the profession design is that, as much as reasonably practical, all interpretations of a profession are found within that profession.

Archer was covered right away, with ranger being the only profession that uses both bow types. Axe exists as another ranged physical weapon. However, nature magic empowered warrior types, or 'melee druid' as you refer to it as in a derogatory manner, is also a valid interpretation. Being both - having a bow in one weaponset and melee weapons in the other set - is another valid interpretation, no less valid than any other. The maces appear to be designed in order to fill gaps that people have been asking to be filled to give ranger a wider range of options - support, self-sustain, and defence. Filling a gap has evidently been determined to be a higher priority than adding more of something that ranger is already good at.

There are multiple variations on the theme of 'ranger' in the fantasy genre. This time, they chose to expand on the healing/nature magic theme. Might not be what you want, but ArenaNet isn't catering to you alone.

[Lazze.9870]

I kinda assumed that the mainhand would cover some support options next to staff and that the off-hand would either focus on defense or CC. It's fine, I see both having uses. Maces are inherently boring weapons, so it was either this or some wacky nature stuff with PBAoEs.

I'm reeeeeeally tired of that green fart cloud effect trailing every single weapon we've been getting since the mh dagger, though.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:08 AM, Frozey.8513 said:

GW2 took Ranger, an original GW1 class, towards a very different direction than it was in the original game.

The "big direction" change they did with GW1 ranger was forcing the pet mechanic on us, and if anything should infuriate GW1 players the most, it should be that decision.

The main attribute of ranger in GW1, Expertise, didn't just favor the use of bows, but the use of multiple weapons and skill types. Playing scythes, daggers, hammers etc. on ranger weren't niche playstyles just because the bow was (obviously) played more often by casual PvE players and that the ranger itself was the best user of bow builds (with a few expections). The GW1 ranger also had strong, nature themed skills.

Pets have the biggest influence on changes made towards ranger between GW1 and GW2. It is also one of the reasons GW2 ranger feels so "nature-y" compared to GW1 ranger. On one hand is out of necessaity to create elite specs like druid that taps further into one aspect of the ranger theme when there is a lack of secondary professions (this is fine). But it is also needed to explain the elite spec augmentations to the pet mechanic, so you get soulbeast and untamed.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Lazze.9870

[Crey.5263]

10 hours ago, Sirius.4510 said:

Yup.

Just wait, when ANet runs out of other weapons for the Ranger to get, they'll make it a portal gun.

nope, mesmers get portal gun!

[Crey.5263]

I'm just hoping that the Unleased Mace attack grants multiple stacks of Nature's Wrath.  Love my healquick Untamed, but mace has to be broken to replace my staff...

[Batalix.2873]

Also count me in the anti-rifle group, for multiple reasons. I would say the two biggest reasons are:

1. GW2 Ranger is definitely a "befriender" of animals, and themselves lean heavily into a "primalist" identity with respect to survival and combat. Firearms are such a patently unfair and unnatural means of hunting and combat that, be it out of respect, or self-identification, or simply enjoying the challenge, I do not see Rangers wanting to use a firearm. At least, not in the way most basic libertarian brogamers imagine they would: I would see them using it more like Mesmer tbh, as a support weapon.

2. Rangers have a strong throughline of "nature magic" in all of their especs and several core traitlines. I would heavily prioritize a focus or scepter for weapons, or even what we got with maces, over yet another ranged pewpew when they already have two of those.

 

EDIT: Also, I just have to say it, but the idea of either you or your pet growing large was an idea I had for focus. And while I'm not utterly devastated by the choice of maces, I don't quite understand why this Ranger weapon is so "magical" in nature when the effects, to me, seem more fitting for a scepter or focus. Aside from Guardian Mace healing, most mace attacks are very much on the "low magic" end of the spectrum.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[SoulGuardian.6203]

On 11/8/2023 at 5:46 PM, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

Me watching ranger get the weirdest and most un-ranger weapons imaginable while waiting 11 years for the most obvious choice of weapon for a ranger: ☠️

This right here. 

Enough said.

[Ashen.2907]

Clubs, and maces are a form of club, have been used as hunting weapons for longer than the bow has existed and, hopefully obviously, even longer than firearms.

 

And I point that out despite the fact that I personally would have preferred rifle over mace.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Sansar.1302]

Mace main hand seam totally useless. 

[Beddo.1907]

21 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

Mace main hand seam totally useless. 

Explain to me how is it useless.

[Sansar.1302]

29 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Explain to me how is it useless.

It dont seam like a dps weapon and if that is true it will be useless

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, Sansar.1302 said:

It dont seam like a dps weapon and if that is true it will be useless

So if it's not dps it's useless? Even as a pvp/wvw only player I can see how this logic is wrong, support druids in all types of pve content will want to use mh mace if it's good for support as main hand support weapon is something they lacked. If it's good of course.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:50 AM, Frozey.8513 said:

Overall state of pewpew is so bad, that no class offers your full on pewpew gameplay experience. There are no optimal ranger builds that focus solely on going only bows. Neither are there on other classes. Maybe Engineer getting the shortbow will make Engi the king of pew pew as they can then easily camp on that weapon the whole time.

Virtuoso lol.  

For topic, I am skeptical of the usefulness of the growing mechanic since it isn't going to well with the relic.  Also, I see OH mace getting nerfed 3 times in the next 3 months, and I obviously don't even know what the boons on it are yet.  

[Beddo.1907]

11 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

It dont seam like a dps weapon and if that is true it will be useless

I don't even know how to respond to that. This take is so wild, I think I'll just pretend I didn't see anything.

[kharmin.7683]

16 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

It dont seam like a dps weapon and if that is true it will be useless

This is the reason why we got the un-asked for sword change.  Not everything has to be DPS.  Egad.

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

This is the reason why we got the un-asked for sword change. 

Lots of people asked for it. You aren't the only person who plays the game.

[draxynnic.3719]

Oh, the irony.

[kharmin.7683]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:42 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

Lots of people asked for it. You aren't the only person who plays the game.

I recall people asking for sword to have more power, but not for a complete overhaul of the sword mechanics.  Show me where.

[Levetty.1279]

I take back all the defense I put forward for Mace. If they were an actual support main hand and defensive off hand they would be great but this isn't it.

Main hand has boons that are much better provided by other parts of the Rangers kit, a heal which is about the only useful bit on it and an auto attack which does nothing but provide a bit of unneeded vigor on the third strike.

The ambush is the biggest let down as all it does is damage and immob, making it less then useless on Heal Quick untamed which is the build that most needed this weapon in the first place.

The detractors were right about the off hand, despite anets claim it is defensive weapon, it is actually trying to be a dps weapon. Bit of barrier is the only defense it provides, though the condi cleanse is nice. Only condi cleanse Ranger has that isn't trait dependent or on a heal.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Levetty.1279

[Silvoshipnos.2089]

I feel that the maces are designed for PvP/WvW untamed. Not that exciting.