They are selling hero points in the gem store now

[illuminati.8453]

I have no problem they did this.  But, I look at it this way, of all the QoL things they could have dreamed up for the gem store, this is what they go with?  This probably took less than an afternoon to implement.   

This level of effort is studio-wide now it seems.   /smh

[Benjialarue.3790]

I thought we can exchange gold for gems so no need to buy it with real money. 🤣
On a more serious tone, I don't see the problem here, it's not mandatory and a lot of HP trains still running so it will change nothing, I think.
If some people want to buy it with their real money, it's their choice. And I pretty sure, we'll see that in the Wizard's Vault soon enough. 
Don't blame Anet for this, but blame NC Soft, they are behind everything "wrong" in the game, I think. 😝

[Morvran.8265]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:11 PM, Cuks.8241 said:

I mean you can already swipe your credit card for best gear, for gold, for instant max lvl, unlocking waypoint which helps greatly with exploration. You can swipe for a bunch of qol. You can swipe to trivialise traversal (t2friend...).

So I dont see how this changes anything and how this is against gw2 philosophy. Its already as p2w as it can get.

This might be the first real content skip sold for money. Some HPs actually are challenging and require more than just pressing F. Now if you have the money you can autocomplete these without having to do them.

This sets a very dangerous precedent and promotes spending money over learning how to play the game. Which is clear P2W mindset.

[BlueJin.4127]

Come on… selling HP’s isn’t a pay-to-win feature. If somebody wastes equivalent of 15~20 gold worth of gems (depending on conversion rate) for a single random HP, “winner” isn’t the word I’d use to describe that player. 😝

Edited November 30, 2023 by BlueJin.4127

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, Morvran.8265 said:

This might be the first real content skip sold for money. Some HPs actually are challenging and require more than just pressing F. Now if you have the money you can autocomplete these without having to do them.

This sets a very dangerous precedent and promotes spending money over learning how to play the game. Which is clear P2W mindset.

And buying legendaries isn't skipping challanges? 

Buying your way through raids isn't skipping challanging content?. 

[Morvran.8265]

1 minute ago, Puck.3697 said:

And buying legendaries isn't skipping challanges? 

Buying your way through raids isn't skipping challanging content?. 

No, buying legendaries is just a gold sink. You don't skip content by buying one but I agree that isn't great for the game's integrity either.

Buying raids with gem to gold conversion is P2W too, but at least you had to be there and players actually did the content. There's also the silver lining that some good players got rewarded for their skill which creates incentive for others to get good at the game too.

Hero Point auto completion is worse on principle.

[DoomNexus.5324]

On 11/28/2023 at 9:27 PM, Assolador.3598 said:

p2w means paying for skip content, pay > skip to lvl 80, pay> skip gearing, pay> skip hero point chase, pay> skip grind, if thats not p2w then I must say that black desert isn't pay to win 

Actually true. Objectively speaking GW2 has some of the most p2w mechanics in existence.
You can just straight up buy any amount of gold you want via the gem>gold conversion lol, is there anything more broken than that? This means you can also just swipe for raid runs and everything associated with that too or basically everything you can acquire via gold, items or services.
The only thing that makes people feel like gw2 is not p2w is that there is a hard cap for everything which doesn't get increased either, as there is no vertical progression beyond a certain point (which is also rather quick to get to). But even for a full legendary armory you could just swipe your credit card.

Look at the points made about p2w mmos or heavily scrutinized changes in other mmos and chances are that if gw2 does have that mechanic it's monetized. Heck Anet even outlawed build/gear templates so they can replace it with their own kitten version where you have to buy individual slots for everything on every single character. That's precisely the stuff that let's people say BDO is p2w.

Edited December 3, 2023 by DoomNexus.5324
wording

[Gerebos.1065]

This item was available all along,people who did some PvP got it for "free".

On personal opinion I always loved games where you had a f2p and a pay option.

Not the mobile game pay version where things are intentionally 10x+ times harder than it must be so you have to pay to be competitive , the comfort pay version is always welcome as long as does not affects the f2p ways.

In youth I paid with time for my things,now I have  less time but I have transformed time in another currency to use up.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Lol to the people now saying this game has pay to win.

You can literally buy gold by converting gems to gold

You can literally buy level 80 boost

You can literally buy storage space.

You can literally buy character slots

You can literally buy infinite gathering tools

You can literally buy infinite fishing lure

You can literally buy infinite salvage kits

You can literally buy waypoint unlocks...

But people all of a sudden care about being able to literally buy Hero points.

"But, but, those are QoL purchases, those are different!" 

[Trejgon.9367]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:42 PM, Assolador.3598 said:

also again, with ur logic, black desert isn't pay to win

 

On 11/28/2023 at 9:46 PM, Assolador.3598 said:

ok, I got your point, but with that said, black desert is not p2w right? everything is grindable there

To those two I raise, the p2w tent - non-grindable and giving clear massive advantages over grindable equivalent (at a hungle pricetag of 40-50 Euro).

BDO in general is slightly different case all together, because it is built around concept of OW PvP over grindspots, so if one player has better gear, he is able to win this spot over lesser geared people, and therefore progress much faster, which compounds as to catch up, you'd need to somehow close that increasing gap in gear. For example by throwing more money at PA than the other dude.

12 hours ago, Mizuira.8245 said:

So all these Gacha (mobile) games are not P2W?

You often have free trials and you can get the same Characters. It is just people can throw hundred of dollars to get them faster, same as hero points in GW2 now.

We don't have the same definition of P2W if it is not...

The issue with most Gacha games I saw, was not that you'd get some characters faster by swiping, but that the rng was tuned that unless you paid, and paid alot, you were virtually unable to pull the good characters from any event pull.

1 hour ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

Actually true. Objectively speaking GW2 is one of the most p2w mmos in existence.

Arguable. P2W as a term originated from games with heavy focus on PvP, and having your purchases affect that PvP scene. In case of gacha games, that heavy emphasis on competitiveness against other players is often made via utilization of leaderboards, where people whom paid, would rank higher than non-paying users by default.

In GW2, sPvP is not affected by no gem purchase you can make, there are no leaderboards to be chased where buying gems would get you an advantage, so in the grand picture, while you could argue that paying allows you to skip alot of the game, that skins are inconsequential. And the "most" p2w mmos in existance, have it much worse - because striaght power of one player vs other player is being a core principle of the game.

 

Now don't get me wrong yall, I am not thrilled by expac hero points in gem store, I just felt like addressing some outlier comments.

[Lorienys.5407]

It does objectively give someone the "advantage" over others if they choose to just use rlc and "skip the grind" much like with the WP unlocks and the 80 boost. Fortunately for GW2 the grind is quite fun, at least in my opinion, unlike with many other P2W games where the entire point is that the grind is absolutely awful thus encouraging you to spend money. I wouldn't buy any of that stuff in the gemstore mainly because I prefer to do it all myself, I actually enjoy playing this game and don't see a reason to avoid that.

Regarding newer players especially, I wouldn't want anyone to see the gemstore listings and think they're somehow the better options. I'm hardly surprised that the hero point unlock was added, with everything else that's already in there, but it still sucks to see

[kharmin.7683]

4 hours ago, Morvran.8265 said:

This might be the first real content skip sold for money. Some HPs actually are challenging and require more than just pressing F. Now if you have the money you can autocomplete these without having to do them.

This sets a very dangerous precedent and promotes spending money over learning how to play the game. Which is clear P2W mindset.

What precedent?  You can already "purchase" HPs from WvW and complete those more challenging ones.  There is absolutely nothing P2W about this.

[DoomNexus.5324]

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Arguable. P2W as a term originated from games with heavy focus on PvP, and having your purchases affect that PvP scene. In case of gacha games, that heavy emphasis on competitiveness against other players is often made via utilization of leaderboards, where people whom paid, would rank higher than non-paying users by default.

In GW2, sPvP is not affected by no gem purchase you can make, there are no leaderboards to be chased where buying gems would get you an advantage, so in the grand picture, while you could argue that paying allows you to skip alot of the game, that skins are inconsequential. And the "most" p2w mmos in existance, have it much worse - because striaght power of one player vs other player is being a core principle of the game.

Now don't get me wrong yall, I am not thrilled by expac hero points in gem store, I just felt like addressing some outlier comments.

sPvP is not affected but WvW is tho.
But yea, like I said, the only saving grace for GW2 in this regard is the lack of vertical progression. You can get virtually anything in gw2 by swiping for gems and converting to gold but it's not an issue because players are not kept on a gear/power treadmill.
With "the most p2w mmo in existence" I meant by the design of monetization. There is indeed a big difference to actual p2w mmos as they keep players in a perpetual "grind or swipe" loop, which GW2 does/can not (unless they alienate their playerbase by introducing vertical progression).

But a lot of mmos get flamed for being p2w when they offer bag slots to better compensate all the unnecessary trash items, enhanced fast travel options, quick revives "on the spot" or virtually anything related to gear, near mandatory quality of life features, etc. The gw2 shop offers a "solution" to every of those problems and more. Of course things need to be put into perspective of how useful those things are for progression.

[Awn.1327]

This is clearly a newbie trap. No experienced player would ever buy this. There are already a bunch of those in the gem store. Very bad show by ArenaNet.

[Trejgon.9367]

23 minutes ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

sPvP is not affected but WvW is tho.

yeah, but you can do WvW perfectly fine in exotic gear and stay a member of competitive group. There will never be a case where one dude who swiped carries whole fight. And in a number of other MMOs I played, that would be very much a fact. (For example, in now once again re-released and renamed for nth time Air rivals it was very much a case, where one player whom have swiped silly lot, was fully capable of wiping entire alliance force by himself, his gear was simply that much better)

26 minutes ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

But yea, like I said, the only saving grace for GW2 in this regard is the lack of vertical progression.

lack of vertical threadmill, gear progression with relatively low roof, no rng progression (+number enhancements of a gear with random chance of succeeding and losses on fail), there is a number of design elements that GW2 does not employ which makes it's monetization scheme fair (compared to alternatives on the market).

28 minutes ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

With "the most p2w mmo in existence" I meant by the design of monetization. There is indeed a big difference to actual p2w mmos as they keep players in a perpetual "grind or swipe" loop, which GW2 does/can not (unless they alienate their playerbase by introducing vertical progression).

There is nothing wrong with the design, issue comes with some of items available in gem store, and perhaps with which exact items can be bought off the tp, and which require additional game activity to complete. On a side note, the same mechanism that was the core of your complaint (swiping for gold) enables everything in the gem store to be obtainable with in-game gold for non-paying players.

31 minutes ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

But a lot of mmos get flamed for being p2w when they offer bag slots to better compensate all the unnecessary trash items, enhanced fast travel options, quick revives "on the spot" or virtually anything related to gear, near mandatory quality of life features, etc. The gw2 shop offers a "solution" to every of those problems and more. Of course things need to be put into perspective of how useful those things are for progression.

The main differences on those aspects, is that the non-paid options available within the game are already sufficient to deal with those problems. For grand most of my characters I am running on cheap set of 20 slot bags, and there is not that much of a difference between those, and those that I have stuffed with - obtained for free, through achievements - 24/28/32 slotters. In games where those complaints are risen, the systems are balanced in a way that it will be very hard to stay competitive against other players without swiping, if even possible.

[Jigramunt.5906]

Yeah this is a very greedy move but i'm not THAT worried about this.Whether you have money or not only a moron would buy this thing.It's clearly a rip-off.

[Danikat.8537]

Which areas of the game actually need elite specs?

I know most build guides recommend them, and the few core-only builds are usually presented as ones to use until you have an elite spec unlocked, but is there anywhere you'd actually struggle to complete things without an elite spec? I've recently been doing EoD metas on a core guardian (I'm slowly collecting hero points to unlock Dragonhunter but haven't prioritised it) and haven't had any problems doing that. I assume I could do more with an elite spec, but it hasn't noticeably prevented me from joining in and if I did want a perfect min-max build I suspect swapping out soldier's stats for something else would be a higher priority.

Most of the time when I am using elite specs it just feels like doing things differently rather than better, but that might just be the way I play. My two favourites (untamed ranger and weaver elementalist) are actually more complicated and therefore harder to play effectively than the core profession and I'm not entirely convinced the additional effects balance it out, but I've not looked into it in any detail.

I assume it's important for strikes, raids and high-end Fractals, if only because groups will expect it so it'd be harder to get a group without an elite spec build. Although I once did a couple of T3 Fractals with someone who thought I was on a core ranger, and they just whispered me to ask why I'd chosen to do that, they didn't object to it (I'm not sure if the icon was bugged or they mixed up the soulbeast icon with the core one). But other than that is there anything where it makes enough of a difference that it could prevent someone being able to complete things?

[Randulf.7614]

5 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Which areas of the game actually need elite specs?

I know most build guides recommend them, and the few core-only builds are usually presented as ones to use until you have an elite spec unlocked, but is there anywhere you'd actually struggle to complete things without an elite spec? I've recently been doing EoD metas on a core guardian (I'm slowly collecting hero points to unlock Dragonhunter but haven't prioritised it) and haven't had any problems doing that. I assume I could do more with an elite spec, but it hasn't noticeably prevented me from joining in and if I did want a perfect min-max build I suspect swapping out soldier's stats for something else would be a higher priority.

Most of the time when I am using elite specs it just feels like doing things differently rather than better, but that might just be the way I play. My two favourites (untamed ranger and weaver elementalist) are actually more complicated and therefore harder to play effectively than the core profession and I'm not entirely convinced the additional effects balance it out, but I've not looked into it in any detail.

I assume it's important for strikes, raids and high-end Fractals, if only because groups will expect it so it'd be harder to get a group without an elite spec build. Although I once did a couple of T3 Fractals with someone who thought I was on a core ranger, and they just whispered me to ask why I'd chosen to do that, they didn't object to it (I'm not sure if the icon was bugged or they mixed up the soulbeast icon with the core one). But other than that is there anything where it makes enough of a difference that it could prevent someone being able to complete things?

I found the difference between core and elites on elementalist an enormous gulf. I’ve settled with catalyst after a long spell with weaver because I seem to be able to push more out of it, but there’s no doubt the extra skills and mechanics push superior dps and survivability. Even in open world, it’s made life so much easier and faster. I’m fighting things solo I never could on core

Weaver allows for faster rotations and Catalyst can quickly stack fields and boons. Core ele would feel like a handicap if I went back to it.

[Dayra.7405]

Some of you are talking as it would be difficult to get HPs. It's not, there are 1214 hero points and you can maximally spend 750 of them. Getting 250 of them to get an elite takes less than 2h (or 1 min if you are long term WvW-player), if you know what you are doing. If some want to skip these, let them. It doesn't give them any advantage. It only give them something many of us already have in abundance. It maybe helpful for new player to catch up faster, if that is what they want. They first spend money to buy a game such that they can waste time. Now they spend even more money to buy such things as Lvl 80 boost, WP pass or HP to waste a bit less time. If that makes them happy fine. If a lot people do that, such that it finances game development even better. But I doubt that they sell well. 🙂 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Dayra.7405

[kharmin.7683]

27 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I found the difference between core and elites on elementalist an enormous gulf. I’ve settled with catalyst after a long spell with weaver because I seem to be able to push more out of it, but there’s no doubt the extra skills and mechanics push superior dps and survivability. Even in open world, it’s made life so much easier and faster. I’m fighting things solo I never could on core

Weaver allows for faster rotations and Catalyst can quickly stack fields and boons. Core ele would feel like a handicap if I went back to it.

I hardly play my elementalist toon, but I, too, have focused more on catalyst than any other spec there (actually having some fun with Sw/D generating a lot of fire and using the F3 then F1 sphere).   For casual (very!) open world, it does give me more bang for the buck with less button mashing.  I agree with the sentiment of going back to core.

[fatihso.7258]

There is nothing wrong with Anet exploring options to generate more sales and money. It’s good for them and good for us, for game’s sustainability too.

You can always go do your HPs, but if someone has money to spare and skip. Why getting mad? Each to their own. 

Let’s be honest, this game has been suffering bcs everyone is playing without actually spending any legit amounts that you would in any other mmos. 25 euro expansion thinned out to a year will make Anet no money. They need more. As someone who has more ap, more playtime and kp than most of you I fully support Anet looking for ways to earn more money.

It’s time to face the reality for some of you.
 

 

[Danikat.8537]

1 minute ago, Dayra.7405 said:

Some of you are talking as it would be difficult to get HPs. It's not, there are 1214 hero points and you can maximally spend 750 of them. Getting 250 of them to get an elite takes less than 2h, if you know what you are doing. If some want to skip these, let them. It doesn't give them any advantage. They first spend money to buy a game such that they can waste time. Now they spend even more money to buy such things as Lvl 80 boost, WP pass or HP to waste a bit less time. If that makes them happy fine. If a lot people ddo that such that finances game development even better.

I did it on my weaver in PoF maps and I think it took me about 3 hours in total. I did have some advantages over a brand-new player, mainly I had the mounts unlocked to help get around the map, I had the Lily of the Elon pass to get there quickly (although there are other options) and I knew to use the Wiki to find out where the hero points were.

But I'd used a birthday scroll and tomes to level the character, and hadn't decided on stats yet so he was wearing whatever I got from the level up rewards, and I equipped the Weaver spec as soon as I could so for a while I was missing traits and using skills I wasn't familiar with for a lot of it. I was surprised at how much harder it was than using my normal characters (who are all using questionable DIY builds), even fighting 1 veteran was a serious challenge.

But that just meant I either waited for other people to show up and did the hero challenge at the same time they did or I moved onto another one.
 

35 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I found the difference between core and elites on elementalist an enormous gulf. I’ve settled with catalyst after a long spell with weaver because I seem to be able to push more out of it, but there’s no doubt the extra skills and mechanics push superior dps and survivability. Even in open world, it’s made life so much easier and faster. I’m fighting things solo I never could on core

Weaver allows for faster rotations and Catalyst can quickly stack fields and boons. Core ele would feel like a handicap if I went back to it.

Ok yeah, elementalist is the one profession where I really miss the extra options from the elites when I go back to playing core-only. Although I never really got on with catalyst, I've stuck with tempest and weaver, and even on weaver I miss having the tempest's overload skills. But even then I'm not sure if it's actually better or if I just have more fun doing it.

[Splat.7981]

Being a new player that recently decided to give this game a proper go it's very disappointing to see this.
I don't know if this decision on their part will not hurt the game in a medium to long term.

What's the next step? Arenanet adding their version of the WoW token?

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, Splat.7981 said:

Being a new player that recently decided to give this game a proper go it's very disappointing to see this.
I don't know if this decision on their part will not hurt the game in a medium to long term.

What's the next step? Arenanet adding their version of the WoW token?

What is a WoW token?

[Splat.7981]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

What is a WoW token?

I'm not saying that this is that but seems that could be Arenanet next step.
The WoW token is an item/currency you buy on the cash shop with real money and then when in game you can convert it to gold.