They are selling hero points in the gem store now

[Surelia.2651]

Previous posts aside, I don't think this item will sell much; even if it were for an alt only kind of item.

I mean, who doesn't love an HP train? come on

For example, in the past year I have taken more alts through HOT trains lead by a couple commanders that schedule them weekly than at any other time I have played the game.  Mind you, I have tipped them too, so I am spending some little gold for participating.  Tipping well seems only fair considering the amount of craziness we sometimes get the commander into, depending on the size of the train.  I also throw out the usual ascended foods for people when we start and then in the last map, so there is a little investment there, but I like doing that since food makes people happy.

Now,  I do know the way to all of the HOT HPs by heart after all this time (no Taco for me thanks), but I still get a huge kick out of watching the train commanders get all the inexperienced players to the top of the canopy or down to the depths of a thorn wall.  The one straggler who always gets lost.  Blowing up the guano boss.  The inevitable panic mode getting in and out of the chak hatchery and the multiple someones that always forget they did not yet have the Itzel mastery point unlocked.

I mean basically, if you were to buy these things you would be not only skipping content, you would be missing out on what is an iconic experience in GW2 PvE life.  Just do it! It's really fun.  🙂💜

[Rembar.7298]

Just going to add something:

 

If you consider the HP thingy a P2W mechanic, then you're also qualifying any other videogames as P2W that are not, like LoL, where you can buy new champion with cash too. Does it gives you any advantage? Nope, you just got something to play with faster that won't make you any better than other players. Same happens with HP. Do they give you any advantage? Nope, yo just got your elite spec faster to play it if you want. You won't be better than me or anyone else who got their elite specs already.

 

If we consider any of that P2W, then there are literally 0 videogames with microtransactions that are not P2W xD

[Gotejjeken.1267]

The term Pay to Win really only applies to games that have random loot drops which also carry stats.  Then they will have store fronts where you can use real money to increase the chances to obtain them.

Was a KMMO called Vindictus (made by Nexon) around 2010 that is the definition of Pay to Win--you only had so many free tokens a day to take boat rides to the various map instances and could pay more money for additional rides.  The map instances are where any of the gameplay takes place, so at some point you were forced to stop playing unless someone else paid for you or you bought more tokens.

On top of that you had weapons that you could forge up in level (+1 - +15 IIRC) but after +10 they had a chance to permanently break unless you bought an item with real money to safeguard them.  

That's my baseline for 'Pay to Win'.  

In addition, played another Nexon game called MapleStory where you actually had to buy an item to pick up loot off the ground or in higher level maps you either died instantly trying to pick it up (and dying reduced your EXP to the next level) or you lost like 60% of the loot as it also disappears pretty quick.  

Nothing in GW2 is Pay to Win to me.  You have convenience items like infinite gathering tools--but that's about it.  The level 80 boosts are negligible as new players might like the actual leveling experiences and if they don't they give the boosts away like candy anyway.  

Hero Points are a non-factor since you can skip those with WvW for long time now.  That's all free and takes really no time at all to do--putting them in gemstore I guess just helps the people that don't want to be griefed.  

I guess if they put actual mastery points in the gemstore that would be closer to Pay to Win as those have direct game impacts--but still nothing near what KMMOs were and are doing (like BDO, Genshin, etc.).  

[Roads.5130]

On 11/28/2023 at 12:29 PM, Wing.5819 said:

It's not silly if it's true. I actually have integrity and the courage of my convictions.

Pay to Win is an automatic game ender.

Game has been pay to win for quite some time now, you can get all the legendary weapons on day 1 by swiping a card. You can also convert gems to gold which you can use to pay for people to clear raids and help you get PvE legendary armor. Specially if fashion is considered the endgame of GW2, you can easily get almost anything you want by buying gems and converting to whatever you need.  Let's also not forget the power creep on each expansion (is paying for better skills not considered pay to win anymore?), let's also not forget the paywall to obtain essential content like griffon and the other mounts.

I don't understand what advantage do you think someone who pays real cash for HPs would have over anyone who actually plays the game unless you are not considering the absolute avalanche of advantages people who pay have been enjoying for years on this game. 

Do I like this kind of microtransactions? No.

Will I miss you? Also no.

[Huldrelokk.6598]

Starts with HPs and how ends?
We never will know, but little acceptances of small things that can grown slowly is the start to deal with unstoppable consequences.
Is an anti-game move. You cant sell gameplay time and conquers like a service, we are not playing a mobile game.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Huldrelokk.6598

[evilcat.6817]

No hard feelings.

HP from shop is no different from one from open world.

If you can get HP from WvW.

If you could get it from PvP too, that would be even better.

Getting your first elite spec isnt particuallry hard. Getting your 3rd on same character could be harder (hardest points go last).

On 9th character farming HP could be so boring. It is repetitive and not in fun way.

There is general problem that you could be unlucky with finiding other players to do challening HP guardians. You could partially walk around with going after easier HP.

Im not sure if it is easier to farm 25 HP or farm 400gold (to buy gems). HP could be faster.

[Morvran.8265]

19 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

What precedent?  You can already "purchase" HPs from WvW and complete those more challenging ones.  There is absolutely nothing P2W about this.

At least you had to play the game for that, and if you're not an active WvW player then doing the HPs directly is much faster. I think that's fine.

Do you really not understand why selling more and more ingame progression and content skips in the store is bad for the game?

[Astralporing.1957]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:15 PM, Cernoch.8524 said:

Why do you think it is worse than selling lvl 80 boosters or WP unlocks?

Slippery slope is not a single step. It's a sequence. It can theoretically be stiopped at any of such steps, but normally if you don't do it early, it becomes much harder to prevent once the ball starts rolling.

So yes, you can say that it's not worse than WP unlocks or boosters. When looked at it in separation, that is - because when you look at it in context of those previous things you have mentioned, then it starts to form a worrying pattern.

Or, if you want a simpler answer: two wrongs don't make a right.

[Danikat.8537]

4 hours ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

Starts with HPs and how ends?
We never will know, but little acceptances of small things that can grown slowly is the start to deal with unstoppable consequences.
Is an anti-game move. You cant sell gameplay time and conquers like a service, we are not playing a mobile game.

It didn't start with this though. The level 80 booster has been in the gem store since 2015 and that allows you to skip past a lot more progression than just getting hero points. They've also been selling waypoint unlock packs for several years (since 2017 I think) and things like the world boss portal that allow you to skip straight to areas you may not have reached yet. Oh, and teleport to friends. If you think things like this are pay-to-win or otherwise problematic I'd say the hero point unlock is part of the "unstoppable consequences" not the start of something which may hypothetically come later. But another way to look at it is if this started with the level 80 boost and 8 years later this is where we've gotten to it's going to be a very long time before it's a serious problem.

I do still think the level 80 boost is a problem and it would be a mistake for most new players to use it before levelling at least 1 character. I think it would be even more of a problem for someone to boost their first character to 80, buy hero points to unlock elite specs, buy gems to convert to gold to get equipment (either directly from the TP or via things like buying materials to level crafting to make ascended), buy the waypoint unlocks and whatever other upgrades and cosmetics they think they need to mimic an 'end game' player because they think they need all that to be ready to start playing. But it's mainly going to be a problem for them because they probably won't know what to do with their fully kitted out character, or how to do it.

The worst they can do to other players is be mistaken for an experienced player and allowed into a group where they won't be able to keep up, and that can happen anyway, even with players who actually did level their character and earn all the stuff they're using.

That's why I don't think it's pay-to-win, because they don't actually get any advantage over other players by doing it. They may save themselves some time but it's also likely to leave them with less to do in the game because I doubt they'd be happy with the idea that their very expensive maxed-out character should go back and do the level 10 story, or explore base-game maps, or do achievements and other things that would have awarded them the equipment they've bought instead.

[Loboling.5293]

Terrible decision to include this. I already hated boosts, and this is just another step. Shame.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Loboling.5293

[Luthan.5236]

Seems like either

a) a classic noob trap (again) - where people buy it when they don't know yet that the hero challenges can be completed easily (+ there are other options ... heroic notarys scrolls from WvW or so)

or b) something where they really think new players might want to max out very fast - even without spending some (not much) time to manually play the hero challenges. Combines well with them always advertising the latest content + SotO not even having hero challenges. People can start with the game. Buy the other expansions + the gem store hero point scrolls to max the elite spec anc start with the latest expansion.

No real "pay 2 win" - so no complaints here. (Since there is no real advantage gained. Those things are so easy to complete even the HoT ones with asking just in map chat.) More like a "pay to have less content to play". I wonder if really that many people are planning to use this. (Except some that get "trapped" by not knowing better yet.) That is the biggest problem: People that might walk into a noob trap here. Then even having less content to play (cause the challenge just gets bought lol).
 

[kharmin.7683]

7 hours ago, Roads.5130 said:

Game has been pay to win for quite some time now, you can get all the legendary weapons on day 1 by swiping a card. You can also convert gems to gold which you can use to pay for people to clear raids and help you get PvE legendary armor. Specially if fashion is considered the endgame of GW2, you can easily get almost anything you want by buying gems and converting to whatever you need.  Let's also not forget the power creep on each expansion (is paying for better skills not considered pay to win anymore?), let's also not forget the paywall to obtain essential content like griffon and the other mounts.
 

So, how do you "win" GW2?

This game is not P2W.  Everyone has equal access to all equipment.  It's not like swiping your card grants you items that are exclusive and above the ones that can be obtained in the game.

Power creep is also not P2W for the same reason.  Everyone has equal access to it.

Mounts are not P2W.  Everyone, again, has equal access to them.

Paying for any of these things only accelerates the rate at which they can be obtained, all of which can be gotten in game anyway.  And none of these things will "win" GW2.

 

[Marshall Sed.8643]

Here's how I see ALL of these boosts and unlocks.....

1.  Does it impact on MY enjoyment of the game?

2.  Does it affect how I play the game?

3.  Does it bother me that there's a quick way to get to the "end game"?

The answer to all of these is NO!  I enjoy the game.  I play it to get away from RL struggles.  It's an escape.

If, for you, it has a negative impact then, I'd suggest, you stop playing and go find something more fulfilling and enjoyable to improve your life.

 

 

 

[starlinvf.1358]

The irony is players have been demanding this for years, threatening to quit. Now that its happening, players demanding it be removed or they’ll quit. 

So is Anet supposed to listen to the community or not?

[DeanBB.4268]

I don't recall people asking for hero point unlocks, but I'm old and feebleminded, so may have forgotten. People have asked for mastery points though, right?

[Cernoch.8524]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Slippery slope is not a single step. It's a sequence. It can theoretically be stiopped at any of such steps, but normally if you don't do it early, it becomes much harder to prevent once the ball starts rolling.

So yes, you can say that it's not worse than WP unlocks or boosters. When looked at it in separation, that is - because when you look at it in context of those previous things you have mentioned, then it starts to form a worrying pattern.

Or, if you want a simpler answer: two wrongs don't make a right.

You are right I guess.  Things like that should never be in the gem store to begin with. Hopefully this was the last thing added for map exploration, I can not see them adding hearts....hopefully not.

[evilcat.6817]

Side discussion: I dislike... that there are no hero points in SotA.

Yes we already have surplus of hero points, however if for some reason want to unlock all 3 elite specs, or just get bored with same train of hero points, the last hp you do are hardest. And there could be some subjective hard HP to get for you. So adding some extra HP to SotA could actually be good, and make this whole story with gemstore item less issue.

Repeatable HP are sometimes useful for WV dailies, break the stun bar or kill veterans. So addding a few extra would not hurt.

[Niizzy.3618]

As a new player, it was already hard for me to find a reliable HP train, specially for Path of Fire.

Now with this item, every veteran full of gold to exchange for gems will be skipping trains even more. Its not much the P2W thats the problem (it still is a problem, its a slippery slope) but how it will affect "older content". There will be no one there to do HP challenges anymore, specially the harder ones that people left behind, since its random using this egregious item will finish the ones you left behind first.

I don't want this game to become P2W and die.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Niizzy.3618

[vares.8457]

9 minutes ago, Niizzy.3618 said:

s a new player, it was already hard for me to find a reliable HP train, specially for Path of Fire.

You don’t need a HP train for path of fire, almost every Hp in PoF can easily be done solo. And there is always WvW to get Hero Points 

Edited December 1, 2023 by vares.8457

[SpyderArachnid.5619]

35 minutes ago, evilcat.6817 said:

Side discussion: I dislike... that there are no hero points in SotA.

Yes we already have surplus of hero points, however if for some reason want to unlock all 3 elite specs, or just get bored with same train of hero points, the last hp you do are hardest. And there could be some subjective hard HP to get for you. So adding some extra HP to SotA could actually be good, and make this whole story with gemstore item less issue.

Repeatable HP are sometimes useful for WV dailies, break the stun bar or kill veterans. So addding a few extra would not hurt.

I have full map completion (core + expansions) and all three elite specs unlocked on my Mesmer. And I still have 464 excess hero points that I have nothing to spend on. That is almost enough excess hero points to get two more elite specs (It is only 250 hero points to max one elite spec).

There are more than enough hero points in the game already. No need to add anymore. They are already repeatable for dailies as you said, so no reason to add more to fill that role. And since SotO did not add any new elite specs, there is no reason to add more hero points when you would have nothing to spend them on.

Hero points were only added to the expansions because those expansions had elite specs tied to them. If a person only owns PoF, then PoF provides them the hero points to acquire the elite spec that came with that expansion. Same with HoT and EoD. SotO did not add any new elite specs, so no reason to offer hero points to fulfill their requirements.

[Ashen.2907]

On 11/30/2023 at 9:04 AM, Splat.7981 said:

I never mentioned P2W or that had an impact on my gameplay.
We can discuss and debate about things right or do we have to stay silent just because many see this as a simple convenience for alts for example?

So you say it's trivial...i see so a game that was originally based on world exploration can, bit by bit, become trivial, or introduce new ways to avoid random POI's...i wonder if one day GW2 will be like WoW, where most of the people sit afk in a capital just waiting for that "enter instance" pop up.

I wasnt saying that you mentioned P2W or that it affected your gameplay. I was making a general statement that it only affects tbe player who makes a conscious decision that the purchase is worth making to him. No one else is impacted in any way.

Sure we can debate or discuss what other free-willed individuals do with their time and money in a manner that does not affect us at all, but why? Should my lack of interest in using the color green on my characters' armor mean that the removal of the color green from other players' options becomes a reasonable topic of debate? 

As to the trivial aspect...it doesn't become trivial, it already is. The addition of mounts, power creep, etc ensures that.

[Luthan.5236]

@Niizzy.3618You do not really need a "train" for the PoF hero challenges. Most (or all) can be completed solo - but I understand that a new player might lack the gear/experience to do so. There are at most elite mobs though. (If I remember correctly.) Just getting one (1) other player to help might be enough - which should be easier to achieve than getting help for champs in HoT maps.

The "train" thing also mainly is interesting when you quickly need/want to max the hero points to unlock all your elite specs. It also can be viable to slowly experience the game a bid. First playing core profession. Then one elite spec and slowly completing the map - instead of trying to complete all the challanges first and fast. (Then of course it might be tricker. When one guy helps you with one challenge but only wants to help quickly for that one and you might need to wait for help for the next one again.)

[particlepinata.9865]

Its like earlier mentioned other gemstore items (Wp unlocks for example), to cater to lazy whales. No twisting, denying or excusing around that. It certainly is not in the category of regular 'Quality of life'. And it does impact the game because the actual gamer is being exchanged by people who see it as their expensive toy store, it polutes the actual gaming community,.Does not affect the actual gamer? It does, you are not the priority anymore. Recycling everything, no creative ideas, no presentation or presence from the devs, not even a decent trailer of the latest expansion confirms this. A 180 degree change from the time the studio actually cared (Core, Hot and Pof times).

[SpyderArachnid.5619]

The thing is it does affect you. It might not affect you directly, but it definitely affects you indirectly.

An extreme example, GW2 player invites their friends to play GW2. They don't want to waste time leveling or getting the elite specs or waypoints. They just want to play with their level 80 friend who already has all that. So, they buy the skip stuff (80 boost, hero points, waypoints, etc). They are grouping up for world bosses, strikes, pvp, etc. You name it.

You just so happen to be in those groups (not actually in their group, but doing the same content). Trying to kill that world boss and it fails? Well all those fresh new players with their boosted characters ruined that for you because they have no idea what they are doing. Strike? PvP? Heck, maybe even a fractal (not likely). Wondering why that meta failed after you tried so hard? fresh new players that boosted and bought their hero points and waypoints so they could try it out.

You say it won't affect you if these people buy these things, but it does. It's not directly affecting you, no. But indirectly? It is. So next time you're doing Kuunavang and it fails yet again, wonder if there are fresh boosted new players that ruined that for you and if it would have succeeded if those players weren't there.

Edited December 1, 2023 by SpyderArachnid.5619

[Ashen.2907]

46 minutes ago, SpyderArachnid.5619 said:

The thing is it does affect you. It might not affect you directly, but it definitely affects you indirectly.

An extreme example, GW2 player invites their friends to play GW2. They don't want to waste time leveling or getting the elite specs or waypoints. They just want to play with their level 80 friend who already has all that. So, they buy the skip stuff (80 boost, hero points, waypoints, etc). They are grouping up for world bosses, strikes, pvp, etc. You name it.

You just so happen to be in those groups (not actually in their group, but doing the same content). Trying to kill that world boss and it fails? Well all those fresh new players with their boosted characters ruined that for you because they have no idea what they are doing. Strike? PvP? Heck, maybe even a fractal (not likely). Wondering why that meta failed after you tried so hard? fresh new players that boosted and bought their hero points and waypoints so they could try it out.

You say it won't affect you if these people buy these things, but it does. It's not directly affecting you, no. But indirectly? It is. So next time you're doing Kuunavang and it fails yet again, wonder if there are fresh boosted new players that ruined that for you and if it would have succeeded if those players weren't there.

A veteran who chooses to not learn his class because the game makes no such requirements of him has been behind that since before any such insta 80, WP unlock, etc existed. You can hit 80 in a few hours and be in a strike group, PvP team, WvW squad before you know that you can set your traits and pick gear that works for your build.