Why is everything in this game so overly cryptic

[Bladestrom.6425]

20 odd years ago games had no wiki and had maybe a couple paragraphs in way of guidance in a manual and players coped perfectly fine, veterans included.  The problem is that the new generation of kids have been brought up in an environment where instant gratification is king.  Its not just games, ask someone in there mid twenties or earlier how often they read a book for pleasure, the answer is scary.  A side effect of not reading is that kids have not developed the ability to visualise and use their imagination - not conducive to good problem solving.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bladestrom.6425

[Danikat.8537]

3 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

When i read this type of post, i feel like some assumed veteran where always veteran. 25 August 2012? Just a bunch of gw2 veteran playing the game. Of course, they didn't have trouble cause they were veteran even back in the days...

Plot twist : there weren't and yet it didn't cause problem

So no, most thing aren't cryptic in this game, most of the time, the only effort to do is paying attention to your surounding, read item description or NPC talking. I know this is something MMO playerbase tend to struggle with, but the gaming playerbase in general tend to succeed at those check...

As an extreme example: when I first started GW2 I didn't know how to move my character. That pop-up that tells you hadn't been added and it had been years since I'd played a PC game without click-to-move so I actually had to take a moment to figure out the controls just to talk to the first NPC. (It took longer to figure out a control scheme that worked for me, at first I was holding down W or both mouse buttons to run, but that hurt my hand after a while, then I found out there's an auto-run toggle and that helped a lot.)

It didn't help that I'd read a lot of marketing for the game which talked about Dynamic Events and how if someone says centaurs are attacking the town they mean now, not whenever you're ready to go and do that quest, so when my first character loaded into the world and got told "Help! Centaurs are attacking the town!" I felt like I didn't have time to stand around looking at the options menu and figuring out controls, I needed to get going! (Later on I did realise the introduction is not actually a dynamic event and I could take as much time as I needed.)

Maybe I'm just a slow learner but it's normal for me to not know what I'm doing when I first start a game and need time to figure it out. I'll often consider my first save/character/whatever a 'practice run' and then restart when I feel like I have more of a grasp of how things work, which often involves re-designing my character. I'm going to get Baldur's Gate 3 soon and I'm already expecting to spend my first evening entirely in the character creator and still restart early on when I realise I want to change something.

I was going to say I didn't do too badly with making characters in GW2, but that's partially because I spent the betas experimenting with different choices. I still deleted and re-made two of them after launch. I also 'wasted' most of a day in one of the betas trying and failing and trying again to do the Spekk's Laboratory jumping puzzle, spent all the jute I'd managed to collect making Runes of Life (to be fair in GW1 +20 health was an amazing bonus), and at some point I did the same thing everyone does where I accidentally turned all my carefully horded wood into dowels. I didn't really figure out dodging until I started doing dungeons (and my first dungeon was the Molten Facility, so I'd been playing for months at that point) and I still routinely screw up if I try to craft anything ascended without a guide.

GW2 is a big, complex, confusing game. But it's also absolutely possible to learn it by playing, which is how most of us did it. I think a big part of that is accepting that it's a game so you can't really do anything genuinely disasterous, there's no mistake that can't be fixed somehow or other, so you don't need to be afraid to experiment and see what happens.

[Randulf.7614]

2 hours ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

20 odd years ago games had no wiki and had maybe a couple paragraphs in way of guidance in a manual and players coped perfectly fine, veterans included.  The problem is that the new generation of kids have been brought up in an environment where instant gratification is king.  Its not just games, ask someone in there mid twenties or earlier how often they read a book for pleasure, the answer is scary.  A side effect of not reading is that kids have not developed the ability to visualise and use their imagination - not conducive to good problem solving.

Agreed, but back then we also had built in cheat modes and pokes, so we were hardly innocent 😉

Not sure Tangled Depths can be traversed with a press of up up down left these days 😂

[Surelia.2651]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:59 AM, Kandrax.1504 said:

Recently got back to this game after a long, long while (2010s) and bought some of the LW seasons, can't help but to notice that in the new maps basically everything revolves around 'finding your way to thing X', be it NPC, POI, vista, HP, whatever, in the most puzzling fashion imaginable. Look, I can appreciate witty placement of some vistas, but when the whole map is designed around obscure pixel-perfect jumps, near invisible holes or tiny cracks in a mountain range that lead to a passageway and the likes I can't help but to think of this as horrible game design.

So.... I guess following the giant green stars, orange circles and/or red arrows on a map, reading NPC directions, is the obscurity you mean? Uh.... what?

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Agreed, but back then we also had built in cheat modes and pokes, so we were hardly innocent 😉

Not sure Tangled Depths can be traversed with a press of up up down left these days 😂

we had up and down with knightlore! 🙂

[Lucy.3728]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:59 PM, Kandrax.1504 said:

but when the whole map is designed around obscure pixel-perfect jumps, near invisible holes or tiny cracks

I often have problems recognizing things in the texture like edges (which my character then runs along and falls off until I've figured it out and reacted), gaps (and bye-bye), humps I get stuck on. It's also rarely possible for me to gauge whether I can walk on the slope or whether I'm about to fall off.

I use pathing in Blish HUD (Tekkit and also the old ReActive because it's sometimes more generous with mistakes), I used to have Taco separately, but Blish Hud just has so many nice things in it.

It puts a path over the map that I can follow.

[Lucy.3728]

6 hours ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

20 odd years ago games had no wiki and had maybe a couple paragraphs in way of guidance in a manual and players coped perfectly fine, veterans included.

God mode (cheat)

That's how I did all of Unreal Tournament.

Which was a bit over 20 years ago.

6 hours ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

Its not just games, ask someone in there mid twenties or earlier how often they read a book for pleasure, the answer is scary.

I'm towards 50 and my answer would probably be the same as your mid twenties.

Give me the movie, spare me the book. Novel don't excite me, they bore me. Too much blah, blah wasted on description. I want to get to the point.

6 hours ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

not conducive to good problem solving

You learn problem solving through problem solving.

I know where the button is on a PC tower, and that makes me a PC specialist for many in my age range and above. I have learned to solve problems through confrontation. Which used to mean trial and error and learning by mistakes. Nowadays I use Google, YT and forums. Over the years, you accumulate a lot of knowledge. Many problems come up again and again.

But if someone comes to me with their cell phone and wants a solution. I'm better off asking my mother.

[Bladestrom.6425]

Give me the movie, spare me the book. Novel don't excite me, they bore me. Too much blah, blah wasted on description. I want to get to the point.'

And there lies the problem that I was referring to, there is a generation where they literally have underused parts of their brain and need information fed visually.  On top of this there is a real behavioural problem where kids need instant gratification.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bladestrom.6425

[kiroho.4738]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:59 PM, Kandrax.1504 said:

Recently got back to this game after a long, long while (2010s) and bought some of the LW seasons, can't help but to notice that in the new maps basically everything revolves around 'finding your way to thing X', be it NPC, POI, vista, HP, whatever, in the most puzzling fashion imaginable. Look, I can appreciate witty placement of some vistas, but when the whole map is designed around obscure pixel-perfect jumps, near invisible holes or tiny cracks in a mountain range that lead to a passageway and the likes I can't help but to think of this as horrible game design.

Do you have examples?

I remember two maps in the whole game where navigating is a bit confusing. Draconis Mons and Tangled Depths.
All other maps are perfectly fine.

There are no "near invisible holes" or "tiny cracks in a mountain" to fing NPCs, PoIs, vistas or HPs.
Such hidden entraces are only there for jumping puzzles (and not even all by far).

[Tiviana.2650]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:37 AM, Danikat.8537 said:

GW2 is a big, complex, confusing game. But it's also absolutely possible to learn it by playing, which is how most of us did it. I think a big part of that is accepting that it's a game so you can't really do anything genuinely disasterous, there's no mistake that can't be fixed somehow or other, so you don't need to be afraid to experiment and see what happens.

And that was my point, if anyone bothered to read the end instead of just disliking what i said.

[KerryTT.4792]

Well, there is always Togatl Grounds in Kessix Hills. Have had to help people to that one a few times. 🙂 

Overall, I have a great time wandering mindlessly through Tyria. 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by KerryTT.4792
another mispelled word

[Nabbut.7480]

Alternative for mind-developing GW2 puzzles is degenerate "click on red points" mobile gameplay. Make your choice.

[Phyb.6704]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:35 PM, Tiviana.2650 said:

Im going to have to agree with some points the op has. The game to someone that is new or might as well be new is a cypher inside a chinese puzzle box hidden in a maze the location of is on a map on 3 different continents . We take it for granted because we have been there done that. But for someone not familiar with gw2 world and systems it can be a hair pulling experience. I almost quit the game back when i started because everything is obscured until you find it. I believe in adventure and exploration but mapping is a small part of a new players problem, everything is hidden to them and unless they have knowledge of the wiki and have it open on a second monitor it gets rough trying to figure things out. I have had many players ask me how do you find/get/do x. Once people get used to how its done with gw2 then its easy, but till that point when someone ask in chat hey where is/how do/ x just telling them wiki it may not be the answer. Not until they learn what that means anyway.

Its actually made very simple. Just do everything in order. If you level normally.... do all the story and content in order.....

We say go to the wiki because it actually has pictures. TRy telling someone which kitten skrit hole to jump into in the silverwastes jumping puzzle. Its meant to be trial and error. If you want to skip doing the work then go on the wiki. 

If you're going to skip the majority of the game and just go to the current stuff... say soto zones...... yes.... you will feel lost.

I always say.... max a character to 80 with a boost. So you can play with the spec you wana play... like elite spec... since they can change how the class even plays... like core necro and reaper.
Then do all the core story and partially map comp the core world so you can at least get auto loot mastery and learn your class / spec as well as mechanics in an "easy" enviroment cuz core is really easy. Then progress through the rest of the story. Pause to max gliding and start doing some t1 fractals to learn some easy group content. Continue story and pause to unlock certain things in mounts masterys. Keep doing the story and unlock things as needed. By now you will have a feel of what you may want to pause to take time doing. MAybe spend more time in group content and such.... Skip icebrood last chapter since it req dead content. Watch youtube... keep going through story. Only skip for weaponmaster training or to quickly unlock the jade bot for a hp increase from its slotted equip. As you go through this way you will learn and feel more comfortable moving onto strikes and going back to old  content to do more stuff but be comfortable doing the current most recent content. You will have masterys to get around and will understand how the game is designed so you do not feel overwhelmed. 

This just sounds like someone is trying to skip a lot of content introduction. Imagine just jumping into a series thats been running for 1000 episodes and skip to episode 1000 and be like...... i am confused. Its kitten. What would you get told? Watch from episode 1 or go watch a lot of youtube videos.
Sadly in gw2 even if you watch youtube to learn specs, world design, see videos of the story content... and such... you will still lack the masterys and such. You gota play the game.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

we get threads like this because at some point players forgot what a role-playing game (rpg) is, and what an mmorpg is in general. i keep hearing that the time of mmos has passed, but honestly it seems more like no one actually remembers why they would even play one to begin with.

 

i blame the current world and how it pressures people to have very little free time or energy, and what that's done to their ability to enjoy things.

Edited December 28, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Danikat.8537]

10 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

we get threads like this because at some point players forgot what a role-playing game (rpg) is, and what an mmorpg is in general. i keep hearing that the time of mmos has passed, but honestly it seems more like no one actually remembers why they would even play one to begin with.

 

i blame the current world and how it pressures people to have very little free time or energy, and what that's done to their ability to enjoy things.

I remember when Baldur's Gate 3 came out some people were very surprised at how well it was doing, because apparently it's a very complicated game and they expected more people to get confused or discouraged by not understanding all the mechanics. Which might be a hold-over from a few years ago when it seemed like everyone was trying to simplify RPGs to make them more accessible, which I think had mixed results.

I suspect a lot of people just didn't care that they didn't understand it all. I played through multiple DnD games (including Baldur's Gate 1 and 2) without understanding all the mechanics and just didn't worry about it. I've taken a similar approach to many other RPGs, including GW2, and it often seems to work well. I'll learn what I need to sooner or later and if I'm able to get through a lot of the game without knowing something then I clearly don't need to know.

I probably should have learned how stats work before getting to level 80, but thinking that power was for melee and precision was for ranged weapons (long story) didn't seem to be a big problem, and I found out how they actually work when I was picking stats for my first full exotic set, so it's fine.

[Godfather.9058]

This is the new map design anet has implemented after vanilla. I pointed it out as well, but I was told that I'm imagining things. Probably people who didn't play Guild Wars 2 vanilla back in the day. The core maps are much more open, have very little verticality and don't require you to go secret hunting to unlock hero points.

Path of Fire maps were in a way a return to the vanilla map design.. But bigger and better. This time with mounts in mind. POF maps were the exception from the new rule. I recently got my hero points on an alt character in POF and it was so much fun to navigate those maps. Such simple easy to read design. Use raptor to cross this gap, use skimmer to get high above the water to that ledge, use jackal to teleport through portals. Plus all the beautiful views. A breath of fresh air from all the BS in icebrood, HOT, EOD and living world.

If you want to tell me that the map design is the same as in vanilla, tell me how you found this hero point https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Submerged_Cathedral . I found it with a guide. Even on an alt. Cos I forgot the magic pixel I have to go through.

[Axelteas.7192]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:16 PM, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

To give you a sense of adventure and discovery?

None of the objectives you need to reach in order to simply progress the story and "finish" the game are particularly hidden or obscure, the narrative holds your hand pretty well in that regard. The whole point of vistas and out of the way points of interest is to be discovered.

I've never had any issue with the locations of these things themselves, but sometimes the map can be tricky to read, this was particularly bad in Heart of Thorns. I'd much rather there be hidden paths and secrets to find than just have everything laid out on a flat map.

And what you get from this adventure or discovery? I remember doing complicated jumping puzzles and afterwards finding a chest with 2 green gear and a shiny mineral... it feels so disappointing anet laughing at us.

Why anet dont put the entry of a minidungeon in the end of the puzzle, or a cool skin reward, or a weird miniboss with nice rewards? No, a small chest fulll of trash.

[Shuzuru.3651]

10 hours ago, Godfather.9058 said:

If you want to tell me that the map design is the same as in vanilla, tell me how you found this hero point https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Submerged_Cathedral . I found it with a guide. Even on an alt. Cos I forgot the magic pixel I have to go through.

Well, simple, i explored the area and found the entry.

My turn, how did you found this one? in a core map : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Togatl_Grounds

And from my memory, that's clearly not the only one like that in core.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:16 PM, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

To give you a sense of adventure and discovery?

Trying to land from skyscale on pixelwide top of a pillar just to be able to get a mastery point certainly didn't give me any of those. It was just purely annoying.

Having to find hidden entrances to somewhere is one thing. Having to guess which pixel will support your weight and which flat surface will cause you to slide (yes, i am looking at you, Chalice of Tears) is another.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Trying to land from skyscale on pixelwide top of a pillar just to be able to get a mastery point certainly didn't give me any of those. It was just purely annoying.

Which pillar/mastery point was it?

[Shuzuru.3651]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Which pillar/mastery point was it?

The only one I see is a mastery point north of inner nayos, on those extractor towers.

There is one where you have to land on the top of the pointy top to get the point.

To be fair, it kinda surprised me, as it's the only  thing I know in the whole game who require precise landing. Except maybe some JP, but those a highly optionnal and are kinda made this way the same way most game do when they implement the super hard end game content, so it's kinda common. Saying it's bad because of that would be similar to say a Mario game is bad...

But generalizing on a single occurrence is a bit extreme, in my mind.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Which pillar/mastery point was it?

One of mastery points on the new map is on top of a pointy pillar. Getting to it is not an issue at all. Dismounting while not sliding down however was (mostly due to the fact that when you dismount, you don't land on the exact same spot than the one your mount was originally standing on). And i don't really see what it added to the game

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Saying it's bad because of that would be similar to say a Mario game is bad...

Mario game is fine if you happen to intend to play Mario. It might be bad if you thought you were playing something completely different however.

[vares.8457]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Dismounting while not sliding down however was

I can’t remember this being an issue for me. 

[Shuzuru.3651]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Mario game is fine if you happen to intend to play Mario. It might be bad if you thought you were playing something completely different however.

MMORPG is the most vague genre in the whole industry.

It's only requise is to have a persistant world, be multiplayer and get rpg element (exp, level, etc)

The whole content is completely indefined by the genre, and from the core game, jp exists, so it's a core component of the game.

Hard JP is to JP what Raid is to dungeon, harder version of a base content.