Be gone desert bl!

[bigmouse.2163]

If it were up to me I'd let players use raptors in desert BL so we could get around faster.

[Dawdler.8521]

4 minutes ago, bigmouse.2163 said:

If it were up to me I'd let players use raptors in desert BL so we could get around faster.

That’s silly, you’d break the back the pocket raptors in DBL if you tried to ride them.

[Nash.2681]

16 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

That’s silly, you’d break the back the pocket raptors in DBL if you tried to ride them.

Maybe we could use two of them like rollerskates? I mean, I hate DBL with a passion, but mostly for it being so big you spend more time moving to an objective than actually playing the game mode.

[Dawdler.8521]

13 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Maybe we could use two of them like rollerskates? I mean, I hate DBL with a passion, but mostly for it being so big you spend more time moving to an objective than actually playing the game mode.

Not enough distribution of weight. Maybe if you're a Charr and can properly use four.

[Nash.2681]

2 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Not enough distribution of weight. Maybe if you're a Charr and can properly use four.

Good point. Would be a fun feature if Charr Chars got that kind of advantage on DBL.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

18 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Everyone who voted no is just misinformed and wrong. Competitive gamemode needs competitive environment. Not only regarding fights, but also regarding scoring and maplayout. Imagine if your server got double points from towers and keeps, would that be fair? Wouldn't that mean scoring and matchup outcome is completely meaningless? And how is you having desert map and enemies not fair? Not saying you aren't allowed to not care about matchup outcome, but rather that those who want to, should be allowed to do so in a setting that is fair to all competitors.

So if you want true competition that can be measured fairly, wipe all maps and make one ebg style where each of the 3 sides are EXACT mirrors of each other, and each server can only field the same # of players at once, and they must only be one class with the same gear/trait setup, akin to red checkers being equal to the black.
Have it be a forward queue, where if there are 5 red 5 blue 5 green, and a 6th red wants to come they queue up until a 6th green and 6th blue also queue up. If players leave the match like a blue quits, then red and green will have a player kicked out so the map has 4 of each server(kicks out the one who had been longest in the map). This makes things TOTALLY fair and balanced for true competition, do you want this? Do THESE numbers lie? They would really show what each server is capable of without the imbalancing WvW is prone to, and what also makes it fun and interesting. If you want to blab on and on about numbers and balance then go all the way(actually you should make a poll about this and then totally ignore that one).

People like ebg because of easy navigation and how close things are to each other and how the action stays more constant with little downtime, zergs and roamers alike.
People like alpine due to the easy navigation and massive open field and structure zerg battles that can take place there(zergs also like easy navigation same as roamers)
People like the desert due to the map complexity, as it requires more thinking and effort to do well, but obviously rewards you when you do.

Ironically people also DISLIKE some of these maps for the same reasons people like them, but don't think they are just misinformed and wrong.

[Elvirais.5472]

So a few fixes to desert bl, and then a third type of border map so the three types can rotate around, is what I'm reading here? Awesome, awesome +1.

[SweetPotato.7456]

7 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

Maybe we could use two of them like rollerskates? I mean, I hate DBL with a passion, but mostly for it being so big you spend more time moving to an objective than actually playing the game mode.

like this
https://ibb.co/KhDpLxT

[TheGrimm.5624]

22 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Well I guess it only becomes apparent to you only you experience facing a server that never goes to desert map. Not a single group. If you actually played for score in past 7 years, you would have noticed this behaviour already.

Yes I haven't played for the last decade. Oh so sorry. If you believe that, I have bridges to sell. I guess you missed the threads were I defended players playing with outnumbered buff to hold out larger numbers even in ABL. 

22 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Since you do not ever play for score, it is natural you do not care about it. But yes, people are often oblivious to anyone elses behaviour.

lol. Riba, back and fourth aside and we are different regions and servers, do you actually think this? There is no reason to win but I still look to win week by week even though it means nothing. No I never played as my server fell from T1 to T8. When you could see a single player or Havoc impact score. Why would I ever try and win while there is no reason. I wish I didn't but as you might have seen me say. The Goal of WvW is kill them, don't die, take their stuff, hold yours! That's while having no reason to win. I guess my reply should be I guess you have never had to use the Han Solo style defense to hold an objective since you claim that defenders have all the advantage in a fight.

22 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

You can use Gw2stats, gw2intel or any similar website and they will all show same data for ongoing matchup. They all use GW2 AI and they're still maintained after almost decade of being up. It is hard to believe these websites would be still be used and maintained if they just showed random data.

I don't use these sites so I can't +1 or -1 their use for stats. I can use what I see in game of server queues. I can look into them but a a lot of sites can only use data that is from players applied their API keys to. So where do these sites acquire their data from if you are using them as sources?

22 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Overall, rest of your comment is dismissing the proof and numbers, so idk, maybe talking to you is waste of time? I based my whole comment on actual numbers that no one has reason to doubt, and you still somehow managed to make your whole comment about bananas not being yellow.

Maybe you are right, I attempt to try find middle ground on discussions and we disagree as well as you have said. So I can't say no here. I said before in various forms I have tried to find middle ground but you asked me not to, so ok. So I went old school and you have provided nothing that makes your points so will have to go with a no.

Where we disagree is your confirmation is that your source has full access to Anet's data where as in most sites it's via the API keys that has been allowed to access that data. Using sources that assume numbers is no bias to make points. So, ok, we can agree to disagree as is norm. 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

29 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So where do these sites acquire their data from if you are using them as sources?

The API isn’t just for player data, it’s for game data too. How did you think matchup sites even get what matchups there are? 😆

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 minute ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The API isn’t just for player data, it’s for game data too. How did you think matchup sites even get what matchups there are? 😆

Source? I have seen matchup sites that only have access to players that apply to them. 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Source? I have seen matchup sites that only have access to players that apply to them. 

What do you mean source lol. It’s the API. Gw2stats, wvwintel etc don’t have player API keys nor do they need them to display live WvW data. It’s two different things. That there has been 50K kills from world X isn’t player data.

edit: the wiki even have the examples, right there live. Just look at the API documentation.

https://api.guildwars2.com/v2/wvw/matches/1-3

Edited January 26 by Dawdler.8521

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

The Goal of WvW is kill them, don't die, take their stuff, hold yours! That's while having no reason to win.

You said a mouthful right there. Not many going to understand it. The Mists War is eternal.

[CafPow.1542]

5 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

The Goal of WvW is kill them, don't die, take their stuff, hold yours! That's while having no reason to win

This. I don’t play for score tho. I play for troll reasons that might result in score.

today, blue startet KT-ing our side again in EBG. Everything there was T0. Their stiff was T1. I had about 15 people as a cloud. So what does the troll in me say? Defend or Attack their T1?

 

guess how wuick they cane running when we flipped durios and the vamp and started sieging bravost. They finally got us there but the KT was stopped at first.

now i might accidentally have played for score there but my intended reason was to f*ck their sh*t up as good as i can. That’s wvw.

[Dawdler.8521]

Doing some basic calculations now at the end of the week: 

NA has roughly 470K kills and 481K deaths. Lets just average both to 500K each.

Desert has roughly 51K kills and 56K deaths so again we can just average those to 50K each, nice and simple or 10% of NA WvW totals.

However, that doesnt tell the true story because EBG make up the vast majority of activity and I aint digging through all the matchups and all the borders.  Lets just take the most balanced matchup and get a rough number: EBG has 60% of the kills and deaths, the 3 borders has 40%. 

Which means if we go by averages, desert has 25% of border kills and deaths. 33% would be even. 

TL;DR lots of people still play on desert.

Edited January 26 by Dawdler.8521

[Chichimec.9364]

On 1/23/2024 at 3:20 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

When y'all started first playing WvW, didn't you go into EBG first?  I did.  Being new, it was unclear what borderland maps are supposed to be for.

Actually, I first started playing on the DBL. Late at night, NA time, I could run around trying to take down sentries and yaks, as I learned the ropes, without too many other folks around. I learned that map well and still enjoy it. These days my WvW guild runs around on all three borderland maps and we hit EBG when and if our squad can fit. I do like the variety in the maps, with EBG being one thing, DBL another thing, and the two ABLs being a third thing. If all three BL maps were the same, that would be boring.

[kash.9213]

9 minutes ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

Actually, I first started playing on the DBL. Late at night, NA time, I could run around trying to take down sentries and yaks, as I learned the ropes, without too many other folks around. I learned that map well and still enjoy it. These days my WvW guild runs around on all three borderland maps and we hit EBG when and if our squad can fit. I do like the variety in the maps, with EBG being one thing, DBL another thing, and the two ABLs being a third thing. If all three BL maps were the same, that would be boring.

I think I was kind of guided by the game into EBG so that's the first map I went into. That was a little before launch and everything was stupid but wild. I think our Pangloss was camped and sieged up for like a day straight. Everything about that map made sense as a dip in and dip out battle ground. 

[Riba.3271]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Lets just take the most balanced matchup and get a rough number: EBG has 60% of the kills and deaths, the 3 borders has 40%. 

And here is where your logic fails.

Your original math was from all 4 mathups, but then you cherry picked 1 matchup later.

 

Actual numbers (NA, couple hours before reset)

Green BL |  76 902 kills

Blue BL |  71 943 kills

Red BL | 52 267 kills

 

Now the numbers there is slightly better than in Europe with desert map having 70% of kills of average of 1 alpine map.  But what this does not take into account is alpine borderland players are split into 2 maps and difference would be higher if it was 1 alpine vs 1 desert map. So the actual numbers are probably around 60%.  Well, it is still better than Europe, but alpine map still has at least 60% (1.6*60% = 96%) more enjoyers.

And if you combine the fact that 60% more people choose to go to alpine map over desert map with the reality that alpine map and desert map have completely different design, it is quite obvious that having desert map as home map is noticeable advantage or disadvantage.

Edited January 26 by Riba.3271

[Dawdler.8521]

42 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

And here is where your logic fails.

Your original math was from all 4 mathups, but then you cherry picked 1 matchup later.

 

Actual numbers (NA, couple hours before reset)

Green BL |  76 902 kills

Blue BL |  71 943 kills

Red BL | 52 267 kills

 

Now the numbers there is slightly better than in Europe with desert map having 70% of kills of average of 1 alpine map.  But what this does not take into account is alpine borderland players are split into 2 maps and difference would be higher if it was 1 alpine vs 1 desert map. So the actual numbers are probably around 60%.  Well, it is still better than Europe, but alpine map still has at least 60% (1.6*60% = 96%) more enjoyers.

And if you combine the fact that 60% more people choose to go to alpine map over desert map with the reality that alpine map and desert map have completely different design, it is quite obvious that having desert map as home map is noticeable advantage or disadvantage.

Desert having 52K kills of the total 201K border kills is 26%.

So your "actual numbers" almost exactly match mine.

If it had only been 1 alpine and 1 desert it's still restricted by something called a map cap. More people would naturally spill over onto desert because there is no way for 1 alpine to maintain the same player counts - and thus activity - as 2 alpines, especially in prime. It wouldnt matter what level they enjoy alpine over desert - more people would play on desert. Alot more people. Would it be 70% of alpine? Who knows. But it would most definetly be far more than now.

Edited January 27 by Dawdler.8521

[Knighthonor.4061]

add back the stuff you took away. I want to experience DBL like it was meant to be

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 1/25/2024 at 4:14 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Chaba! It's 4 AM and as usual bad habits and can't sleep peeps work and live on less sleep than they should. I admit I don't know this one. So thanks and bugger off. Now once awake I will need to review this one. I guess the only valid counter is, "All I know, is I know nothing.".

And I am going more towards the Bill & Ted style versus the more know source. 

lol, btw Chaba I hope you took bugger of as the joke it was since you gave me something to look into. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:11 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

I have same opinion on the matter.  Move it to greenbl.  The original reasoning for why red didn't turn out to be the case.

If players actually see it as harder to defend, I admit I don't, then yes move it to green. Or at least do a 4 week test as it as green to see.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:50 AM, Nash.2681 said:

Good point. Would be a fun feature if Charr Chars got that kind of advantage on DBL.

Charr car rocks on all maps, but this is a different topic I admit.

[TheGrimm.5624]

20 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What do you mean source lol. It’s the API. Gw2stats, wvwintel etc don’t have player API keys nor do they need them to display live WvW data. It’s two different things. That there has been 50K kills from world X isn’t player data.

edit: the wiki even have the examples, right there live. Just look at the API documentation.

https://api.guildwars2.com/v2/wvw/matches/1-3

I had not hence the question. Thanks for the link!

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

Actually, I first started playing on the DBL. Late at night, NA time, I could run around trying to take down sentries and yaks, as I learned the ropes, without too many other folks around. I learned that map well and still enjoy it. These days my WvW guild runs around on all three borderland maps and we hit EBG when and if our squad can fit. I do like the variety in the maps, with EBG being one thing, DBL another thing, and the two ABLs being a third thing. If all three BL maps were the same, that would be boring.

EotM wasn't around when first starting. Coming from Warhammer where there were 4 tiers of WvW you could level up from level 1 till max level in just WvW(RvR). And each tier had different maps and the higher up, more maps so there were different tactics needed across a lot of maps(47 if my math is thinking about it right). So coming over to GW2 we looked to level in WvW on ABL and entered as soon as possible which was rough lol. There was a light scaling in ranks but it was light and it was easy for 6 to fall to one max level while leveling.

When EotM came out it allowed for quicker leveling and also added in more tactics that could be employed versus ABL due to its design. Being in this game a Havoc, a Havoc could ambush larger numbers with more ease and rank faster while also slowing a larger side due to the terrain design. 

DBL eased up on that design but also still left more mobility as a key factor in the map movement. Players used to just ABL and didn't partake in EotM found DBL way restrictive since they did not play EotM for various reasons. With some of the betas have revisited EotM while waiting in queues and it's still a complex and challenging map where if you don't pay attention you are dead. It has a lot of choke points, towers are even more important than on ABL as players asked for before it was released, and none of the keeps feel like oversized towers. You can not double penetrate any keep from the same set of siege as players were complaining about of ABL prior to EotM's release.

I lost guildmates over time due to lack of maps after the variety we had. Don't blame them, I get it, the lack of new strategy within the sandbox reduces interest and increases the been there do that factor. 

Sorry for rambling at you, it's just that it is rambling hour of the night on reset and making more coffee at 3 AM may have been a bad call. But it is coffee. So if tl;dr that's a fair ball lol and forgive me if you don't mind.