Hot Take: Balance is moving in a manageable direction.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'm probably insane, but I think the balance direction is generally positive at the moment. Consider the following

• There are a number of duelist builds that are suitable for conquest
• The duelist builds usually have mitigating factors like being slow, self rooting or some other mechanic that makes it hard for them to chase, and easy for them to be outnumbered.
• There are a number of builds that do damage very quickly (Oneshot mes, Deadeye, Soulbeast, Oneshot Ele, etc)
• The builds that do damage quickly usually have glaring weaknesses, or are outright countered by specializations (Oneshot mes is allergic to condi, soulbeast is single target, Oneshot ele is made of tissue paper, Deadeye is subject to projectile hate/reveal and cant contest)
• Thief is wrapped in a series of nerfs that makes it hard to take 1v1s with, but easy to close outnumbers with
• Most classes now have access to mobility so the meta is not shaped around which team has the better thief
• A number of annoying facets of the game have been removed (Staunch Aura adjustment, Trapper Rune removal, Smokescale knockdown, Shadow Meld removal)
• CC generally is telegraphed and can be responded to on animation, and has been removed in cases where it would supplement a bunker build 
• A good portion of the existing professions have both condi and power options across multiple specs that can be played, with only a handful of outliers
• Necro build survivability in particular is generally well balanced, with damage and shroud mitigation being viable but not oppressive
• Builds outside of the meta still work pretty well, with some metabattle picks sitting at 5/5 despite not being frontrunners for best in slot
• Builds range from easy to play to complex, with arguably reasonable viability distributed across the class complexities. 

Taking a step back from biases that stem from what I play the most, matchups look okay, for the most part. 

Not making that argument to make any particular suggestion, just pointing it out since it's probably not going to be something people will point out here. 

Yeah there are outliers, yeah some things are a little bit free atm.

[Marxx.5021]

7 years late.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

• There are a number of builds that do damage very quickly (Oneshot mes, Deadeye, Soulbeast, Oneshot Ele, etc)

Add Reaper to that--getting as bad as pre-nerf DH was with the pistol spam from range and then the naturally strong abilities in close.  

[Kuya.6495]

1 minute ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Add Reaper to that--getting as bad as pre-nerf DH was with the pistol spam from range and then the naturally strong abilities in close.  

You trying to trigger the moose?

[Avatar.3568]

Yeah balance is quite good, maybe condi druid slightly shaped to strong but, it doesn't feel to much drawn to a single role, not a support meta, not a sidenode meta and also not a one shot meta. 

Buuuuuut there is a big entrence wall, a friend of me started playing the game recently and it's very hard to understand for him when he is allowed to attack and when not. If we wouldn't be 5 guys he probably would have already quit, fighting scourges as a herald of you don't know what a scourge is doing its rly aids, same with any mesmer dh and other shinanigans, there are quite well balanced for what they do but for every I press buttons and hope to get fun man it's just running into a wall

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

this take isnt hot enough

also nerf teef

[Flowki.7194]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm probably insane, but I think the balance direction is generally positive at the moment. Consider the following

• There are a number of duelist builds that are suitable for conquest
• The duelist builds usually have mitigating factors like being slow, self rooting or some other mechanic that makes it hard for them to chase, and easy for them to be outnumbered.
• There are a number of builds that do damage very quickly (Oneshot mes, Deadeye, Soulbeast, Oneshot Ele, etc)
• The builds that do damage quickly usually have glaring weaknesses, or are outright countered by specializations (Oneshot mes is allergic to condi, soulbeast is single target, Oneshot ele is made of tissue paper, Deadeye is subject to projectile hate/reveal and cant contest)
• Thief is wrapped in a series of nerfs that makes it hard to take 1v1s with, but easy to close outnumbers with
• Most classes now have access to mobility so the meta is not shaped around which team has the better thief
• A number of annoying facets of the game have been removed (Staunch Aura adjustment, Trapper Rune removal, Smokescale knockdown, Shadow Meld removal)
• CC generally is telegraphed and can be responded to on animation, and has been removed in cases where it would supplement a bunker build 
• A good portion of the existing professions have both condi and power options across multiple specs that can be played, with only a handful of outliers
• Necro build survivability in particular is generally well balanced, with damage and shroud mitigation being viable but not oppressive
• Builds outside of the meta still work pretty well, with some metabattle picks sitting at 5/5 despite not being frontrunners for best in slot
• Builds range from easy to play to complex, with arguably reasonable viability distributed across the class complexities. 

Taking a step back from biases that stem from what I play the most, matchups look okay, for the most part. 

Not making that argument to make any particular suggestion, just pointing it out since it's probably not going to be something people will point out here. 

Yeah there are outliers, yeah some things are a little bit free atm.

The duelists require a 2v1 to kill in any reasonable time, and they are not Boyce level players.. not by a long shot. There are also SPB builds that are not immobile.. and still have very decent tank considering the mobility, too much imo. Nobody is playing hammer cata, despite it being a very good duelist in good hands. Entry level is too high.. so one of the best duelists is not used, thats not a sign of balance imo. Also, a hammer cata does not require a 2v1 to kill just at average skill level.

 

The current 1 shot builds are broken imo. Front loaded with blocks/immunes/target drops/stealth while still being able to attack. Ele is like herald and vindi, fell behind in the new meta of mindless jumps covered by immunes/blocks/daze spam. Thief is still broken, can't group fight properly, so is pigieon holed into an annoying AF to fight playstyle of low risk +1s. Specter is a joke.. the most horrible condi build that out does nion all cleanse efforts. At-least with scourge you can leave aoe.. specter just spams scepter 3, there is no real work around.. kill it fast or die. That eliminates multiple other condi builds that cannot kill it fast.

 

The mobility I feel is too much now. Its acting almost like a crutch, allowing people to escape bad engagements. Most games now are full of roamers, and that only further hurts support specs. It isnt uncommon for me to be following roamers around, due to having no group fight specs to play around. They don't care to take into account they have a support, and will leave you to die. Thats not balance either.. its just shifting the game into mindless roam zerging, and away from team work even further. It was already bad.

 

I also think you are being way to optomistic in terms of class representation. Sure "many specs are viable" but the difficulty/reward levels are WAY off. The only hard spec currently in popular use is Hollo, the rest of the harder specs are just not being used. That is 100% becuase of nerfs/buffs to all sorts of specs/mechanics/relics/amus, that have made a lot of easier specs more consistantly rewarding for X effort than harder specs. I only see vet pros or complete newbs on the other harder specs, not much inbetween.

 

Support wise, all you ever see now is core gaurd, and very often along side a DH/scourge on mid. That requires so much effort to take on as another type of support/group fighter, far more than the effort to play those specs combined. Most learn that, and jump on the bandwaggon.

 

The game now is gaurd/necro bunkering up on mid. SPB/druid bunkering up on side. Add in some front loaded roamers/group fighters like mirage/WB, and then lastly the new cata, hollo. I don't think the actual representation of specs/classes is near as diverse as youre suggesting.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Flowki.7194

[Kuya.6495]

6 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The duelists require a 2v1 to kill in any reasonable time, and they are not Boyce level players.. not by a long shot. There are also SPB builds that are not immobile.. and still have very decent tank considering the mobility, too much imo. Nobody is playing hammer cata, despite it being a very good duelist in good hands. Entry level is too high.. so one of the best duelists is not used, thats not a sign of balance imo. Also, a hammer cata does not require a 2v1 to kill just at average skill level.

 

The current 1 shot builds are broken imo. Front loaded with blocks/immunes/target drops/stealth while still being able to attack. Ele is like herald and vindi, fell behind in the new meta of mindless jumps covered by immunes/blocks/daze spam. Thief is still broken, can't group fight properly, so is pigieon holed into an annoying AF to fight playstyle of low risk +1s. Specter is a joke.. the most horrible condi build that out does nion all cleanse efforts. At-least with scourge you can leave aoe.. specter just spams scepter 3, there is no real work around.. kill it fast or die. That eliminates multiple other condi builds that cannot kill it fast.

 

The mobility I feel is too much now. Its acting almost like a crutch, allowing people to escape bad engagements. Most games now are full of roamers, and that only further hurts support specs. It isnt uncommon for me to be following roamers around, due to having no group fight specs to play around. They don't care to take into account they have a support, and will leave you to die. Thats not balance either.. its just shifting the game into mindless roam zerging, and away from team work even further. It was already bad.

 

I also think you are being way to optomistic in terms of class representation. Sure "many specs are viable" but the difficulty/reward levels are WAY off. The only hard spec currently in popular use is Hollo, the rest of the harder specs are just not being used. That is 100% becuase of nerfs/buffs to all sorts of specs/mechanics/relics/amus, that have made a lot of easier specs more consistantly rewarding for X effort than harder specs. I only see vet pros or complete newbs on the other harder specs, not much inbetween.

 

Support wise, all you ever see now is core gaurd, and very often along side a DH/scourge on mid. That requires so much effort to take on as another type of support/group fighter, far more than the effort to play those specs combined. Most learn that, and jump on the bandwaggon.

 

The game now is gaurd/necro bunkering up on mid. SPB/druid bunkering up on side. Add in some front loaded roamers/group fighters like mirage/WB, and then lastly the new cata, hollo. I don't think the actual representation of specs/classes is near as diverse as youre suggesting.

 

 

 

 

You just complained about 6 different professions and you mentioned 9 different elite specializations. Meanwhile back in core, the meta was 5 core eles.

 

So OP is right 

Edited February 8 by Kuya.6495

[Shagie.7612]

shouldn't have put weaponmaster training in pvp

balance would be even better

[Khalisto.5780]

too bad in 20 days that's all gone

the only things that are annoying right now is DE f1 with no cast and the druid daze spam

I still can deal with them, but  the feeling is "oh god this bs again"

[Waffles.5632]

@Azure The Heartless.3261

Nah bro you only half right. If you're one of the favored classes right now, you've been eating very well. I agree, however;

Guard/Ele/Rev/Necro - Favored, often get straight buffs & reworks with no trade offs

Warrior/Engi/Ranger - Neutral, sometimes they feast, sometimes they get gutted

-Thief/Mes - Constant nerfs and "trade off balance changes"

 

CMC has flat out said Mesmer is not allowed to have fun pvp, so if that's not bias idk what is. Remember when Cata was literally out of control, and the meta was 4 cata / 1 tempest.

CMC said this: "We don't want to nerf this too hard because this is a fun playstyle that we want to keep seeing in the meta" 🤧

 

So yeah, if you're one of the four favored, enjoy the pvp. If you're one of the neutral, your class gets buffed/nerfed in cycles, and if you're thief or mes, tbh do not take pvp seriously on any level anymore because your class is mechanically at huge disadvantages now.

To me this isn't balance, it's just outright class favoritism and that should be avoided in any game, but the dark reality is this is CMC's game now, and we're all just playing in it.

 Edit: Which, I don't hate CMC, I just WISH Mesmer had a dev who stood up for it the way CMC stood up for ele.

 

Edited February 8 by Waffles.5632

[Waffles.5632]

3 minutes ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Based on what you’ve said here, so he sucks at his job? Well my job is software QA, and if I were QA’ing gw2, I’d be making a shitload of tickets and playtesting this kitten into the ground. I can tell they don’t have enough people to properly test and identify the issues, because even obviously broken (by broken I mean massively overpowered) mechanics slip through the cracks.

Imo favored is still ranger, ele, warrior, guard. I don’t see how necro is on this list. I’ve only rarely seen a necro mvp a match. Almost never happens

we can debate until the end of world on which classes are favored, but the fact we're even having the discussion only proves my point: Some classes get favored, others don't. The specifics don't matter, the bias is clear and it creates an unfair atmosphere where players just end up resentful because if their class isn't chosen, that's it. That's the game.

[Sereath.1428]

Meanwhile Revenant.
Still the same kitten Conquest though, in reality (because no one knows what they want) nobody actually really cares about "super balanced and fair" games. Only pseudo-esports games, communities do.
Especially in an MMO. Yes, that's another reason why most people still don't like MMOs, too many variables for them. That's why devs keep homogenising and making classes more and more depthless.
So don't expect growth.

And no, somewhere between HOT and before POF released, had the best "balance".

Edited February 8 by Sereath.1428

[Deadmoose.6594]

If it aint broke dont fix it, they should’ve followed that mantra

[Waffles.5632]

7 minutes ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Meanwhile Revenant.
Still the same kitten Conquest though, nobody actually really cares about "super balanced and fair" games. Only pseudo-esports games, communities do.
Especially in an MMO. Yes, that's another reason why most people still don't like MMOs, too many variables for them. That's why devs keep homogenising and making classes more and more depthless.
So don't expect growth.

This is actually a good point. Nobody really cares about this anymore, and the reality is GW2 has done it's thing. It is a 10 yr old MMO the fact that devs are even still working on it and adding to it is a miracle. It's why my expectations are low for pvp, but I feel they're super realistic. There is no quick fix or change that will make people suddenly flock to gw2 pvp like never before. It's done, these are just the scraps. I'm glad the game is still online so I can pvp from time to time.

The game is more bloated than ever and every class is getting a new weapon in ~20 days or so, you can bet none of them were tested for pvp beyond a cursory glance.

Edited February 8 by Waffles.5632

[Sereath.1428]

5 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261

Nah bro you only half right. If you're one of the favored classes right now, you've been eating very well. I agree, however;

Guard/Ele/Rev/Necro - Favored, often get straight buffs & reworks with no trade offs

Warrior/Engi/Ranger - Neutral, sometimes they feast, sometimes they get gutted

-Thief/Mes - Constant nerfs and "trade off balance changes"

4 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Based on what you’ve said here, so he sucks at his job? Well my job is software QA, and if I were QA’ing gw2, I’d be making a shitload of tickets and playtesting this kitten into the ground. I can tell they don’t have enough people to properly test and identify the issues, because even obviously broken (by broken I mean massively overpowered) mechanics slip through the cracks.

Imo favored is still ranger, ele, warrior, guard. I don’t see how necro is on this list. I’ve only rarely seen a necro mvp a match. Almost never happens

I actually do feel like Mesmer has been getting punished constantly over the years because of few top players being great at it.
However, it's not the only one to have received this treatment. But the one with the most nerfs because of 15-10-5 players? Yeah, probably.
---
My list of favoured classes over the last 3+ years:
🔹
Ele and Guard - Extremely obvious there's a bias with those two. However, that core butchering they did with Ele is revolting. QOL and some buffs to core, to then make things worse than before those reworks. All because someone was adamant to keep Cata relevant, no matter the cost. So by bias with ele, I mean that it got the wrong amount of attention and work.
But for the longest time, Ele never bothered me, as it usually required a very mechanically good player in order to master it (outside of celestial builds, which still exist in wvw).
Blue class, always meta at something in every game mode.
🔸
Ranger, Warrior, Engi - Ranger has been very strong and forgiving for the last year now. Warrior at some point also had two S tier specs, simultaneously. (Blade and Zerk).
Their ease of access to survivability is my problem with them. You should not make something low risk and also high reward.
With Engi I'm mostly neutral, however I dislike the fact that they keep balancing the whole class around grenades. And I think engi players do not like that either.
Stealth with "ohk" combos is degenerate gameplay.
◼️
Necro - I'm neutral with them too, hard to balance a spec that will never have access to active defenses like blocks and evades. Yes, they can be very overwhelming but it's not terrible if you can keep distance.
◼️
Revenant - Another class that was heavily balanced around only a few players. Power Herald moment. And a very sluggish class without Shiro.
But by the end of all those nerfs and before PoF released, I really felt like it was at a great point. But PoF still happened and then Feb 2020 happened which messed with every class.
Nowadays it's incredibly unforgiving to play and can only be "effective" if you play like a b*, otherwise you fold within 3 secs. Scuffed risk / reward ratio.
-
I never liked the Renegade meta either, that was when Revenant became incredibly forgiving to play. A mobile DPS bunker with range, which still exists in wvw.
However, it still deserves a rework (along with other specs, sure). Otherwise it will never be strong again because of how AOE focused the spec is.
-
By the way, the recent Vindicator Energy Meld change wasn't a buff at all. They completely replaced all the middle traits that provided reliable endurance, you used to get 10 endurance with every legend and alliance swap. And the cd for Energy Meld still has an atrocious value of 30s. It was at most a side-grade since it's similar to the energy refresh of core which has a 20s cd.
Those hammer "buffs" were an insult too. Possibly the worst weapon I've used in this game.
◼️
Thief - Stealth and it's mobility are just way too mechanically strong. For this reason, they have been part of almost every meta for the longest time. But I do get the frustrations of thief players when they keep bringing down their dueling potential, but well, that's why I also dislike Conquest. That kind of mobility and disengage potential is just too good for the game mode, wouldn't have been as bad with other game modes as options.
I never enjoyed fighting them, to be honest, so that's the last thing I'll say about the class.
🟪
Mesmer - Same feeling I used to have with eles, good mesmers are/were rare enough that I never felt too annoyed by dying to one. Since it usually meant they were good players. 
---
And as I said earlier, no, this "balance" is wack.
Why? Because the risk / reward ratio is very off.

Edited February 8 by Sereath.1428

[Arheundel.6451]

The most basic concept to consider with balance, there is the fundamental aspect to consider always where gameplay is involved...and yet it is always omitted from discussions, out of convenience, I am referring to "personal skill level". The reality is that 7 times out of 10, players get outplayed and outbuilded by more experienced opponents....something that people will never admit. In essence, something is truly OP when there is absolutely nothing in your class repertoire to counter or at least neutralise that specific gameplay. People simply refuse to adapt and is far far easier to ask for nerfs/removals....thus the idea that somebody would think the same and only build they play, will and should triumph in every scenario...remains truly ludicrous.

People are free to play the same build everywhere but....to expect the whole game to bend over, just so you can play against everything with the same spec....

 

[Kuma.1503]

9 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

THE GAME IS IN THE WORST STATE I’VE EVER SEEN IT

I just choked on my water lmao

[Khalisto.5780]

And all thar will be gone in 19 days, i think guardian and ele will be absolutely kitten

[arazoth.7290]

37 minutes ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

And all thar will be gone in 19 days, i think guardian and ele will be absolutely kitten

My bets are on condi support tempest with main hand pistol and off hand some support with sage amulet. Which I think will do really well with a good mix of both. And same time pretty solid sidenode bc they got good sustain/more oppressive condi damage.

 

 

[Myror.7521]

On the other side ...... If every one just complanes against everyone does that not mean its balanced? 

This Game is balanced around Counter playing means some Builds counters others soooo in my eyes if everyone just complanes against everyone its just a straight up good sign ^^
 

[Vinny.7260]

I'd love to see Sw/Sw Harb or Sw/Sw Scourge pop up.

 

I could see Sw/Sw Harb with Blood Magic being pretty popular with all the life steal + blood bank.

 

I want Pistol on Ele to have some better power coefficients so I can play FA Pistol dangit. I wanna be a spellslinger, a shock to the heart, you know.

[shion.2084]

Sigh... it's just going to be another kick in the teeth to engi when all these weapons come online.   Its basically a stealth nerf because other Classes will be able to leverage their weapons and that bow clown shoe fiesta we get is useless.

[Flowki.7194]

15 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

You just complained about 6 different professions and you mentioned 9 different elite specializations. Meanwhile back in core, the meta was 5 core eles.

 

So OP is right 

How does that make the OP right? 9 elite specializations out of how many? and only ONE full support out of how many? And why just elite specs, should core builds not be vialbe? If not, then that is a nion pay to win mentality. Your elite spec should beat my core spec becuse you payed for it. Spec represenation is diabolical when you add up all the potential options.

 

Thats only half the problem. 90% of the current popular specs are easier or less punishing options. Why arent the WBs playing herald, why arent the SBs playing untamed? why arent the SPBs playin hammer cata? I can tell you the answer, becuase ive asked. Why do you play WB over something like herald" >> "becuase I like to hard carry my team". Ive played against some plat power heralds who hard carry, so its possible. The average power herald hard carrying? na.

 

What the op really means is that skill/risk/punishment/reward has been destroyed, and the residual specs that rose from that are now balanced becuase they all lack meaningfull levels of those, so things feel balanced.  Don't beleive me? Any good SPB/druid go jump on hamme cata and side node, to remind yourself what real punishment looks like. Any core gaurd or DH, go jump on rev support or power untamed, WB, go jump on herald.. you all know exactly how that goes. Your effectiveness drops becuase you get held to account for your bad plays.

 

For the record, I would go back to ele meta in a heart beat. Not becuase im bias, I barely play ele anymore. The only reason? becuase average level eles on any spec could be punished for mistakes. Any plat on nion any workable spec is going to be a nightmare, thats a given.. its the skill floor that counts for most of us. This new meta is horrendous, you cannot punish many current popular specs in under 5 to 10 seconds (for bad mistakes) as their mechancis are foolproof. Who is going to pretend that isnt the case?

 

Edited February 8 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 surely i play Spellbraker instead of catalyst cause its OP .... right? Wtf no. That argument does not realy makes sence. Sure some peops abuse the obviously broken stuff to get a high place. But there are also peops that simply like their class and thats the reason why they just playing it. 

 

Now you could say im one of these Spellbraker abusers right? Acutually no not at all. I play just every Warrior spec (core included) cause they are fun and not cause they are broken. 

 

Also If you play a spec right there is in this current meta nothing realy broken. Maybe just a bit stronger than Others yes. But it is not even close to the Catalyst Meta or Bladesworn/Condi Zerker Meta Back then. All builds rn are pretty good killable and If you just cant its a Skill issue or your simply Play a build that is countered by the enemys build Just simple as that ^¢