Big Big Problem With March 19 Patch - It's Gonna Cripple Ranger Builds

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Alright, so all the competitive PvP/WvW Rangers need to be speaking out on this one because this is going to bury the class if it goes through.

Take it seriously, this is going to be bad:

------------------------------

Here's the whole list of March 19 changes. As usual there are some highly questionable "just why" types of changes going on.

But I had to post and speak up about this one Ranger change. The listed problem was vs. Druid specifically, but instead of targeting changes to vs. specifically Druid, this patch targets changes that will absolutely cripple non Druid builds that are already suboptimal, and it will place those builds into a spot where they are no longer viable at all.

Right here:

• Empathic Bond: This trait has moved to the master tier, replacing Shared Anguish. This trait now cleanses conditions when swapping pets instead of when using a Beast skill.
• Carnivore: This trait has been added to the grandmaster tier slot previously held by Empathic Bond. Steal health from enemies when you or your pet disable them.

This change will greatly harm several Ranger builds. Non Druid Rangers do not get access to Stability outside of "Strength of the Pack!" - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W), Dolyak Stance - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W), Forest's Fortification - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). These are also extremely short lived Stability durations. The ability to play pet swaps with Shared Anguish to get a single stack of Stability to counter-offense in competitive modes against high levels of CC like from Spellbreaker or Holo or while playing into Shock Aura Share, is the one thing remaining that allows Ranger builds to remain viable. If you remove that Stability from Shared Anguish, Ranger will become entirely dysfunctional amongst a roster of classes/builds who are pumping more and more and more Stability & CC in recent patching.

Everything else keeps getting buffed with Stability sources & shortened ICDs on CCs. Stop nerfing Rangers, especially in areas that you KNOW is going to cripple them detrimentally. There is now such frequent heavy CC in this game, direct, passive, and even force effects like Spectral Ring or Ring of Ward ect ect, Ranger cannot deal with any of this if you keep removing Stability from it.

The problem was listed as against Druid, not Ranger, not Soulbeast, not Untamed. Get your patching right and stop making changes that target already suboptimal classes/builds.

Arenanet, all you have to do is drop this idea of "Carnivore" and just simply move "Shared Anguish" into GM tier. That's all you have to do. Try doing the right thing for once. Maybe your fanbase will praise you instead of giving you a ratio 10 confused faces to 1 like.

Edited February 17 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[BatelGeuce.3591]

I'd see this as a core ranger problem rather than druid since druid has two glyphs that give stab. But yeah, would be nice if they at least moved it to some other trait.

Edited February 17 by BatelGeuce.3591

[Beddo.1907]

Ok hear me out.
What if, we removed the trait and instead got stab sources that aren't awful?
Personally I didn't even play SharedA, because I'd rather dodge CC than waste swap for one 3s stab.

Also I'm not sure if it even does anything to Druid, since I've never seen anyone play SharedA over Ambidexterity.

[anduriell.6280]

Anet devs do not like the ranger to have stability or spike damage as it seems. 
 

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

58 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Personally I didn't even play SharedA, because I'd rather dodge CC than waste swap for one 3s stab.

technically, if you stow the pet and then get into combat, you'd get stab when it pop out from being stowed and when you swap after being stowed you can start with 2 seconds of stab or have 1 stab last for 6s. you can try it out for yourself but thats what maded Shared anguished good because of the ability to stow the pet and then pop it out of combat to proc it.

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

13 hours ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

technically, if you stow the pet and then get into combat, you'd get stab when it pop out from being stowed and when you swap after being stowed you can start with 2 seconds of stab or have 1 stab last for 6s. you can try it out for yourself but thats what maded Shared anguished good because of the ability to stow the pet and then pop it out of combat to proc it.

Just for proof
here's me getting two stability Video with 2 stability from shared anguished

Edited February 18 by Oahkahmewolf.6210

[Arheundel.6451]

They have removed the stability trait because...they expect a huge influx of off-hand mace  rangers which grants stability every 20s with negligible cast time:

• SB - dolyak stance/off-hand mace/SoTP
• Untamed - FF,/hammer unleash/off-hand mace
• Druid - Glyph of the stars/Natural convergence/off-hand mace

In Anet's eyes, rangers will still have multiple sources of stability on every build, and they are strongly pushing full melee power bunker /ranged burst dps sort of gameplay on ranger.

We all know that mace rangers will be a thing and it will be for melee combat, other options like GS/LB rangers or shortbow condi druid are still viable so....in Anet's eyes this is balance

Edited February 18 by Arheundel.6451

[DarkFlopy.8197]

That trait was indeed good, It was a good stab source for none-soulbeasts, on soulbeast on the other hand it would proc every time the pet is brought out or swapped while merged since it has no internal cool down therefore:

Getting in combat after dismount -> pet comes out -> trait proc

Merging -> trait proc

Swapping pet while merged -> trait proc

Unmerging -> trait proc

Swapping pet while not merged -> trait proc

It's quite abusable, you can have 3sec stab every 10sec (maybe even less?) or so by just playing, not even aiming for it while none-soulbeasts have 3sec every 20sec (16 if traited with BM).

Now toss in SotP and dolyak stance (can add offhand mace but it's just 1sec so not really considering it) and boom, a VERY high uptime of stab.

UPDATE:
Merging and Unmerging DO NOT proc the trait.

Edited February 19 by DarkFlopy.8197

[Kjeld.9730]

2 hours ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

 

Getting in combat after dismount -> pet comes out -> trait proc

Merging -> trait proc

Swapping pet while merged -> trait proc

Unmerging -> trait proc

Swapping pet while not merged -> trait proc

Getting into combat with a dismount doesn't proc the trait. (being in combat and dismounting does)

merging doesn't proc the trait.

Unmerging doesn't proc the trait.

get it right.

Edited February 19 by Kjeld.9730

[DarkFlopy.8197]

After testing it myself I found:
 

4 hours ago, Kjeld.9730 said:

Getting into combat with a dismount doesn't proc the trait. (being in combat and dismounting does)

Yes that's what I meant.
 

4 hours ago, Kjeld.9730 said:

merging doesn't proc the trait.

Unmerging doesn't proc the trait.

You are correct.
Now I shall go and beat up my friend (main soulbeast) for telling me those lies.
Thanks for making me check, Now I will need to fact check him more often. 😅

Edited February 19 by DarkFlopy.8197

[Zyreva.1078]

Merging and unmerging dosn't proc the trait, but slb can still proc it ~ twice as much as other ranger specs, since pet swap merged and unmerged have separate cd and both will proc stab (and slb can also potentially copy it multiple times with various boon copy mechanics). I still prefered Refined Toxins but oh well, both will be gone.

Edited February 19 by Zyreva.1078

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

Ranger

Condition-based druid has been overperforming in PvP, and we've brought down some of its defensive tools with the goal of making it a bit easier to take down. 

Refined Toxins: This trait has been removed and replaced with Survival Instincts. Gain increased outgoing strike damage and reduced incoming strike damage. Increased outgoing strike damage when above 50% health and increased incoming strike reduction when below 50%

This is another example of Anet balance identifying a problem with an elite spec and then trying to resolve the problem by gutting a core specialization. This punishes nearly every condition build that Rangers have, leaving core, Soulbeast and Untamed condi builds all weaker because devs are unhappy about druid. But then not only do they take this away, they don't even replace it with some other condition trait. 

At the micro level this is problematic for its too broad impact, but even more on the macro level this highlights this seriously flawed approach to balance. If there is a problem with an elite spec change the ELITE SPEC rather than further gutting core traits that have universal impact. 

[Mell.4873]

Meh, Empathic Bond stability access was only good for stomping but these days completing a stomp is a waste of time since it is quicker just to burst them.

I think the reason they changed it is because no one used the trait.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 2/17/2024 at 4:14 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Personally I didn't even play SharedA, because I'd rather dodge CC than waste swap for one 3s stab.

 

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think the reason they changed it is because no one used the trait.

These tell me g1 and below level. 

As you can't just dodge every CC due to current CC spam meta, and if you aren't using the trait then you are either blowing your CA form, stunbreak (in Dolyak) or elites to get stab, which isn't good.  It really isn't good as all of those are obvious tells that enemy can just kite and then CC the hell out of you.

Being forced to run offhand mace sucks as well, because if not running dual maces it isn't possible to get the 'grow large' buff that I know of, as can't build even 5 stacks of natures vengeance or whatever.  For that reason, they also need to make Strider Strength apply to maces...that way you at least get your power bonus if you aren't running mace/mace and can't get natures vengeance.  

Oh, and the somewhat hidden nerf here is the pet gets stability when you swap as well.  That is very, very important in competitive, because CC'ing the pet screws a ranger in so many different ways.  Which always tends to happen on node, so most of your F2s are useless from random CC spam.  

Shared Anguish to GM is also bad bad, because you are locked out of WK that way.  For most builds in competitive WK is by far the most important GM, especially with nerf to all our cleanses.  

I still stand on the fact that if not stability, then Carnivore needs protection on disable at the very least. Protection would make up for losing stability and coupled with the health steal allow you to still survive CC chains as long as you use your stunbreaks thoughtfully.  

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Protection would make up for losing stability

Personally, I just want stability on some core utility, as it stand. Ranger will be the only class that does not have the ability to generate stability as core once Shared Angiush is gone. The only sources of stability they will have access to is Sotp, which is a 1 minute CD. Unlike other classes which they have tons of traits or utilities that have sources of stab.

Necromancer are the classes as core that only has 1 stab available with its non elite utility on core.

Edited February 21 by Oahkahmewolf.6210

[Mazinger.1084]

Hampering ranger's overall ability to deal with any of the myriad CC available in this game is 100% intentional on their part.  I'm convinced they simply see ranger as a long-range sniping class alone when balancing most of its traits and skills, and thus try to minimize opportunities for escape.  They also probably think this is needed to make certain mace builds less aggressive.  I don't like it, but I'm not surprised anymore at their desire to make ranger ineffective in pvp.

[Zicarous.2134]

20 hours ago, Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

Ranger

Condition-based druid has been overperforming in PvP, and we've brought down some of its defensive tools with the goal of making it a bit easier to take down. 

Refined Toxins: This trait has been removed and replaced with Survival Instincts. Gain increased outgoing strike damage and reduced incoming strike damage. Increased outgoing strike damage when above 50% health and increased incoming strike reduction when below 50%

This is another example of Anet balance identifying a problem with an elite spec and then trying to resolve the problem by gutting a core specialization. This punishes nearly every condition build that Rangers have, leaving core, Soulbeast and Untamed condi builds all weaker because devs are unhappy about druid. But then not only do they take this away, they don't even replace it with some other condition trait. 

At the micro level this is problematic for its too broad impact, but even more on the macro level this highlights this seriously flawed approach to balance. If there is a problem with an elite spec change the ELITE SPEC rather than further gutting core traits that have universal impact. 

The meta build for PvP and Roaming WVW doesn't even use that trait, so who knows why they changed it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Zicarous.2134 said:

The meta build for PvP and Roaming WVW doesn't even use that trait, so who knows why they changed it.

The one on metabattle? 

If so, that one is going to get you killed vs. condi bursts in outnumbered for starters.  You also don't need to take ambidexterity because condi damage is already almost 2k with just trapper runes...

Anyway, in that light, you can use Shortbow and Refined Toxins over Axe/Dagger and Shared Anguish in WvW if you still want to secure stomps using CA form instead of pet swap.  

[Lazze.9870]

Shared Anguish in its current state would be an absolute HORRID GM trait.

It's already meh. A minor bit of stab on pet swap is overrated.

What about introducing core ranger stab options that aren't awful to begin with? Strength of the pack is a glorified 60s CD stab skill. To think they thought leaving it on 75 was fair back when they removed CD reduction from the command trait is laughable.

Edited February 25 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

On 2/21/2024 at 3:51 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

These tell me g1 and below level. 

There hasn't been a single "meta build" using Shared Anguish as a staple trait choice EVER since it got introduced. Just because you find it useful, doesn't mean people that don't are low gold tier (or worse) pvp players. The regular power builds haven't even touched WS in ages. It has been an optional trait on condi builds at best.

I haven't depended on it in plat. Other good players I see rarely run it. Good roamers in WvW rarely run it.

Stop hyberboling kitten. Core ranger has horrid stab availability, with or without Shared Anguish.

Edited February 25 by Lazze.9870

[EnderzShadow.2506]

On 2/18/2024 at 5:21 AM, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Just for proof
here's me getting two stability Video with 2 stability from shared anguished

I don't think that matters in real pvp/wvw application. I want to use my pet as a pet and not a Buff Generator. 
On swap buffs has always been bad design and I do mean always, since launch it's dumb. Maybe 'other rangers' disagree. Ask me how much I care XD

Going into soulbeast 
Going out of soulbeast
Unleashed

It's all lazy, bad design from bad devs.   If its not intuitive and natural to gameplay I don't want it.

 

 

6 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

There hasn't been a single "meta build" using Shared Anguish as a staple trait choice EVER since it got introduced. Just because you find it useful, doesn't mean people that don't are low gold tier (or worse) pvp players. The regular power builds haven't even touched WS in ages. It has been an optional trait on condi builds at best.

I haven't depended on it in plat. Other good players I see rarely run it. Good roamers in WvW rarely run it.

Stop hyberboling kitten. Core ranger has horrid stab availability, with or without Shared Anguish.

And you, glad you admitted that Rangers need real stability. Nothing was hyperbolic about what he said. It's not an exaggeration to make a point. It's not an exaggeration at all. 
Maybe it's not applicable to certain builds. /shrug.

f

 

On 2/17/2024 at 12:35 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Alright, so all the competitive PvP/WvW Rangers need to be speaking out on this one because this is going to bury the class if it goes through.

Take it seriously, this is going to be bad:

------------------------------

Here's the whole list of March 19 changes. As usual there are some highly questionable "just why" types of changes going on.

But I had to post and speak up about this one Ranger change. The listed problem was vs. Druid specifically, but instead of targeting changes to vs. specifically Druid, this patch targets changes that will absolutely cripple non Druid builds that are already suboptimal, and it will place those builds into a spot where they are no longer viable at all.

Right here:

• Empathic Bond: This trait has moved to the master tier, replacing Shared Anguish. This trait now cleanses conditions when swapping pets instead of when using a Beast skill.
• Carnivore: This trait has been added to the grandmaster tier slot previously held by Empathic Bond. Steal health from enemies when you or your pet disable them.

This change will greatly harm several Ranger builds. Non Druid Rangers do not get access to Stability outside of "Strength of the Pack!" - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W), Dolyak Stance - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W), Forest's Fortification - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W). These are also extremely short lived Stability durations. The ability to play pet swaps with Shared Anguish to get a single stack of Stability to counter-offense in competitive modes against high levels of CC like from Spellbreaker or Holo or while playing into Shock Aura Share, is the one thing remaining that allows Ranger builds to remain viable. If you remove that Stability from Shared Anguish, Ranger will become entirely dysfunctional amongst a roster of classes/builds who are pumping more and more and more Stability & CC in recent patching.

Everything else keeps getting buffed with Stability sources & shortened ICDs on CCs. Stop nerfing Rangers, especially in areas that you KNOW is going to cripple them detrimentally. There is now such frequent heavy CC in this game, direct, passive, and even force effects like Spectral Ring or Ring of Ward ect ect, Ranger cannot deal with any of this if you keep removing Stability from it.

The problem was listed as against Druid, not Ranger, not Soulbeast, not Untamed. Get your patching right and stop making changes that target already suboptimal classes/builds.

Arenanet, all you have to do is drop this idea of "Carnivore" and just simply move "Shared Anguish" into GM tier. That's all you have to do. Try doing the right thing for once. Maybe your fanbase will praise you instead of giving you a ratio 10 confused faces to 1 like.

and Mr Boyer, I respect your dedication and passion...but, I don't think it matters what we think. ANET will do whatever they want to do. 

It's like American Politics. A bill will be introduced. The bills name will be "Raise minimum Wage bill" and everyone will take it at face value. Vote for it. But look at the details and it lowers minimum wage by 4 dollars. 

In the same way, ANET could say they are making these POSITIVE changes for Rangers and everyone takes it at face value. Or they just don't have the time to do anything about it.

What are we gonna do? We gonna buy plane tickets to Washington and peaceful protest outside of ANET?

As someone said in the past, "Got no time for dat."
 

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

 

19 hours ago, EnderzShadow.2506 said:

On swap buffs has always been bad design

100% agree with this.

 

19 hours ago, EnderzShadow.2506 said:

I don't think that matters in real pvp/wvw application.

Although I dislike the method of gaining stability, I learnt o grow and understand its potential for it. The first engagement ALWAYS matter and generally determines who has and does not have the advantage in the fight.

The fact you can stow away your pet, and have it pop out on first contact usually allows me to counter attack extremely easily.

Example I can provide is:

Say you a "Pure Melee Ranger" or "you want to open with your melee weapon" Regardless approaching someone who has range CC and you have your pet stowed. You dash into them and they hit you first with CC. Your pet comes out right as the damage is applied, and you gain stability. This stability then negates the CC that applied to you right in that instance.

And sure, during the fight that stow feature is now inapplicable, if you win or loose the fight; you're out of combat. This means you can stow the pet again and repeat on that first contact engagement.

 

Its a very useful trick, pairing with the first engagement, but like I said before once that first engagement is done that stow away pet feature is irrelevant during the fight which now swapping your pet is the only way you gain stab.

Regardless of its application, I know a couple of ranger whom use this frequently in WvW & PvP so I wouldn't say its bad, just tricky to make the best out of it during the situation.

I usually take advantage of this trait when I see the CC coming, or I can anticipate it, the pets I generally use don't really need to be permanently out 24/7 so I swap situationally. I don't know if people do the same or they have a different rhythm  or tactics with their pets.

I mostly use an opening strike build with Turtle and Utility or offensive pet with a decent base damage.

Edited February 26 by Oahkahmewolf.6210

[Gotejjeken.1267]

14 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

I haven't depended on it in plat. Other good players I see rarely run it. Good roamers in WvW rarely run it.

I know Trevor plays in plat (and typically stays there the entire season) and obviously runs Shared Anguish or we wouldn't be posting in this topic--I've also played against him...I'm not sure I've played against you.  

I also know Paper Roll as a roamer in WvW who runs it--I don't know of any YT channel where you post vids?

You can say 'rarely' run it all you want--the point here is we do run it.  I don't care if power builds currently don't run WS, they usually use GS and have access to a whole bunch of things condi builds don't (like a block); it literally has nothing to do with how useful on demand stability is.  

[DarkFlopy.8197]

Have to agree with @Gotejjeken.1267 here, WS and especially Shared Anguish is used in duels and roaming (overall competitive) by power builds especially soulbeasts, tbf for power it is almost the perfect trait line when it comes to roaming and duels in competitive modes.

It has increased endurance regeneration, protection on dodge, small Regen from protection, the stab on pet swap which will go away soon, great condi cleanse and fury uptime, not to mention that Troll Unguent is one of the best healing skills ranger has and Lighting Reflexes is one of the best stun breaks a ranger has.

There is a reason WS jail is a thing, it's not easy to not be tempted to take that trait line, yes you can play without it but it's just a very good trait line to give up on.

[Zyreva.1078]

11 hours ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

Have to agree with @Gotejjeken.1267 here, WS and especially Shared Anguish is used in duels and roaming (overall competitive) by power builds especially soulbeasts, tbf for power it is almost the perfect trait line when it comes to roaming and duels in competitive modes.

Shared anguish is used, but it is not mandatory. Especially for soulbeast, which has by far the best access to stability among all ranger specs. And i still think that refined toxins is better for any build that actually wants to kill stuff. Poison uptime is huge in this very sustain heavy meta.

11 hours ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

There is a reason WS jail is a thing, it's not easy to not be tempted to take that trait line, yes you can play without it but it's just a very good trait line to give up on.

This is true and it's why it doesn't make any sense that anet think it needs improving - then potentially nerfs it anyway. It's almost like "improvement" is their word for "nerf" (hello "pet imperovement patch").

The real reason WS is used less nowadays, at least on power builds - they struggle to kill stuff unless going full glass, because everything is so tanky. Not because it isn't a great defensive trait line.