Man, but I didn't even get to BE disappointed by the new weapons

[Flowersunshine.7385]

Afaik P2W implies not a one time-buy, but a perpetual need to spend money in order to stay ahead. There is no way this is applicable to gw2, which doesn't even have P2P-requirement. (Expansions are not a perpetual need to spend money, especially not at the rate gw2 has put them out.)

Besides: even if you believe you need elitespecs for PvP or WvW (which I think is odd, because metabattle has several core builds in their 'great'-list, even some in the 'meta'-list for these game modes), you can buy any expansion to get the edge you presumably need. Perhaps not all elitespecs were created equally, but there is no expansion that doesn't have a several good elitespecs. This equates to 'buy the game if you wanna play it'. One might, if they would want to stretch things, call it B2W. It is absolutely not P2W.

[Aenesthesia.1697]

On 3/1/2024 at 8:12 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

What about WvW? Anyone can enter it, and at this point it's I think six different games by your line of reasoning.  It's also competitive endgame content.  The counter here is, having no warclaw and on a core spec is going to be a vastly different experience than the cele wb or DE that just wrecked you is having.  

So, can we conclude that PvE mostly isn't pay to win because you can pick and choose subsets of what you buy and none of it is monetized for progression? As I do agree that PvE is mostly cosmetic--the only real overlap is fractals (as strikes/raids you have to buy xpacs for IIRC) but can still do the lower tier ones on core specs I'd think.  

Anyone can enter wvw so what? 

Look at the alternatives to achieve what you want from a monetization point of view: the game is 12 years old and, to avoid being dubbed P2W, it should have either no expansion, or have all expansions be free, or not tie any new spec, skill, mastery, anything that may affect combat or movement across the map, to buying the expansion.

At that point, players wonder what it is that the expansion offers, if they can get most of it without paying for it, and the game dies before the second expansion is out. 

  

 

[Flowersunshine.7385]

6 hours ago, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

Anyone can enter wvw so what? 

Look at the alternatives to achieve what you want from a monetization point of view: the game is 12 years old and, to avoid being dubbed P2W, it should have either no expansion, or have all expansions be free, or not tie any new spec, skill, mastery, anything that may affect combat or movement across the map, to buying the expansion.

At that point, players wonder what it is that the expansion offers, if they can get most of it without paying for it, and the game dies before the second expansion is out. 

  

 

kitten, I applaud you for finding this approach to the argument.  You are entirely correct.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

Anyone can enter wvw so what? 

Look at the alternatives to achieve what you want from a monetization point of view: the game is 12 years old and, to avoid being dubbed P2W, it should have either no expansion, or have all expansions be free, or not tie any new spec, skill, mastery, anything that may affect combat or movement across the map, to buying the expansion.

At that point, players wonder what it is that the expansion offers, if they can get most of it without paying for it, and the game dies before the second expansion is out. 

  

 

I forgot this was going on...but you don't actually play WvW do you?

If you do, I encourage you to run around without a mount there; for extra fun, can even broadcast in map chat that the game would be dead without mounts as you get mauled by them.  

Anyway, I highly doubt if they gave warclaw for free to anyone entering WvW that new players would wonder 'what's new in the expansion?!' when there's like 500-1000 hours of PvE content amongst all of them now.  

Also, your argument is flawed as you can look on general or anywhere else and see people complaining about the length of the recent expansions and that they are 'same old thing'. 

So, players are indeed wondering what the expansions actually offer, and game still isn't dead, and this discussion has been going on since EoD / Gyla Delve 2 years ago.  

Edited March 8 by Gotejjeken.1267

[igmolicious.5986]

13 hours ago, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

Look at the alternatives to achieve what you want from a monetization point of view: the game is 12 years old and, to avoid being dubbed P2W, it should have either no expansion, or have all expansions be free, or not tie any new spec, skill, mastery, anything that may affect combat or movement across the map, to buying the expansion.

As someone who owns all the expansions, I actually agree with this in part. I really wish at the very least specializations/weapons were available to core game players, but it does mean that they'd have to add ways for core-only players to get more hero points, which I feel like would like would most likely wind up being a gem store thing and still out of reach for at least a certain subset of people. I don't necessarily believe all the expansion story and masteries should be free (mounts could still be made available, but with less functionality if you don't have the expansion to get the mastery), as a free-to-play game like GW2 still needs a way to appease the NCSoft overlords' earnings expectations.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

On 3/4/2024 at 12:28 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Weird sentiment here. You pay to get access to content. You didn't pay so ... it SHOULD be obvious you don't get the content you didn't pay for. 

As for the claim that the content is pay to win ... that's just absurd. "Winning" has nothing to do with being able to access the weapons. If your definition is so broad, it's ceases to mean anything. 

Which is precisely why the term has lost its purpose and meaning over the years, the opinions and different peoples definitions of how they perceive it have become so broad and that phenomena spread so wide that it diluted the original intended definition and use of the term. It is not the first time such a thing has happened just in society in general, and it will not be the last.

On 3/4/2024 at 10:46 AM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Sorry, I still don't see expansions as P2W. The term still carries too much specific meaning, stigma, and history with too many people to shake that. Call it a personal choice if you want, but I'm certainly not alone here. I guess we just disagree whether the term has changed enough to be accepted. 

The point of horizontal progression is not to avoid power creep, though less of that, generally the better. Horizontal progression is, (and similarly to P2W, I guess) always was, primarily designed to avoid level and gear grind, so players can take a break for months or even years at a time without having to level up through new content. GW2 still does that for the most part. It's still mostly horizontal. Of course with new content and some power creep, there will be some adjustments, but you can take an old character and play new content with minimal adjustment and grind. Whether that character is now numerically more powerful than it was years ago, even without adjustments, is irrelevant. The horizontal metric is measured for your current character against the current content, not your old stats.

For example, I took a 6 year break from the game when HOT was released. When I came back for EoD, I was able to play the new expansion and jump into current endgame without issues, because my old toon already had the gear and stats to participate. No grind required, no PoF progression, no supplemental purchases necessary beyond access to the expansion. I did just fine with my old toon after adjusting my build for balance changes.

Edit: Disclaimer, I did go to Amnoon to get a raptor before EoD, because duh, but other than that, no PoF grind or progression to play latest content at the time. And base raptor came with EoD anyway, soo....

This is also precisely the point. You don't see them as P2W, that includes many others who share the same view point (I don't see them as P2W either) but there are those who do, those who share the same opinion, and those who see other things within the game as being possibly P2W. For some people simply having microtransactions in any capacity is just P2W no matter the context that it exists within for GW2.

This is why the term has become so useless to debate over, specifically because of what we are doing right here in this very thread. The discussion becomes not about the actual subject material, it becomes about what can be, is, or can be considered pay to win. One person said it, subjectively, within quotations and things spiraled off from there. I am in favor of quite genuinely never bringing the term into a topic of discussion relating to video game monetization ever again because it serves no purpose, goes nowhere and is not productive at all.

I'm technically "one of the old guard" when it comes to remembering and experiencing the games of old that caused the term to be coined, but I'm not going to ignore the fact that over the literal decade plus of it being around that it has quite fundamentally changed in its use and as such has effectively removed all intents and meaning behind it.

As was already said, Leo was not trying to convince you to change your opinion. Much like I am doing right now it is simply to explain that your opinion is just one of, at this point, endless amounts that are all different and none of them agrees with one another on what is or is not P2W and that it is to such an extent that whatever original meaning and purpose it had as a term or phrase is gone.

At this point it is far more productive to try and discuss, in a civil manner of course, the actual value behind what is being offered for the price, as well as discuss potentially if something being monetized can be considered predatory based on circumstances. As with many things it is simply not so binary of a discussion as "it is P2W or it is not P2W".

[Puck.3697]

43 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

This is also precisely the point. You don't see them as P2W, that includes many others who share the same view point (I don't see them as P2W either) but there are those who do, those who share the same opinion, and those who see other things within the game as being possibly P2W. For some people simply having microtransactions in any capacity is just P2W no matter the context that it exists within for GW2

Expansions aren’t p2w, expansions are the equivalent to CoD 1 and CoD 2, without restarting the entire world again and again…..

players want everything for nothing, that’s all this is lol

entertainment costs money, it’s that simple, every game on the planet is effectively p2w it’s a term that was created for extreme cases. Not just because the game costs money

It’s not a opinion, p2w was created as a description to games that demanded heavy micro transactions to gain power that wasn’t available from the game or made unacceptably short

P2W in itself however apply to every game on the market lol, anything that costs RL money is “paying”. 

Edited March 9 by Puck.3697

[KryTiKaL.3125]

8 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

Expansions aren’t p2w, expansions are the equivalent to CoD 1 and CoD 2, without restarting the entire world again and again…..

players want everything for nothing, that’s all this is lol

entertainment costs money, it’s that simple, every game on the planet is effectively p2w it’s a term that was created for extreme cases. Not just because the game costs money

 

I do not disagree, however like I already said in the post, I am not making an argument as to why I think Expansions are P2W, or anything similar...because I don't believe that. That is by and far not the point I am trying to articulate, nor has ever been the point I was trying to articulate. Whether or not you agree with any other perspective or opinion on what P2W is or isn't does not matter as that perspective or opinion is already shared by many others, the same with your own. It has simply gotten to such a point that each of these different perspectives and opinions on P2W has entirely diluted what the term originally meant or was created for.

I don't disagree that it relates to, specifically, gaining advantage over others by paying but people are going to view that entirely differently with entirely different perspectives under whatever varying circumstances are present within any varying number of games.

Is what I am saying clear yet or no?

[Puck.3697]

12 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

I don't disagree that it relates to, specifically, gaining advantage over others by paying but people are going to view that entirely differently with entirely different perspectives under whatever varying circumstances are present within any varying number of games.

Is what I am saying clear yet or no

I understand what your saying, I’m simply saying there’s no point paying attention to opinions that gw2 is p2w. 
 

these people won’t be happy til gaming becomes a 0 profit form of entertainment, they want everything and they want everything for free. 
 

We want to play games, they need to make money to create games, it’s that simple, just like you pay out £40 to take ur family to the cinema, or pay £80-£100 on a nice meal out.

The opinion holds no validation, every games p2w. Literally every single one of them, every game has a gate somewhere that demands payment to pass, weather that’s at the box price, subscription requirements, or micro transaction,

it’s not a opinion, it’s just a portion of players are far too over-entitled, everything costs money, world owes em nothing, and just like every form of entertainment it costs money to participate in.

the only argument worth a dime is simply if the cost of the game is simply reasonable. P2w arguments died in 2016 when players decided everything was a opinion and anything’s p2w if they say so.

games have a cost, it’s on the player if they feel the money the game costs is reasonable or not. 

Edited March 9 by Puck.3697

[KryTiKaL.3125]

3 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

I understand what your saying, I’m simply saying there’s no point paying attention to opinions that gw2 is p2w. 
 

these people won’t be happy til gaming becomes a 0 profit form of entertainment, they want everything and they want everything for free. 
 

We want to play games, they need to make money to create games, it’s that simple, just like you pay out £40 to take ur family to the cinema, or pay £80-£100 on a nice meal out.

The opinion holds no validation, every games p2w. Literally every single one of them, every game has a gate somewhere that demands payment to pass, weather that’s at the box price, subscription requirements, or micro transaction,

it’s not a opinion, it’s just a portion of players are far too over-entitled. 

Sure, there are people that basically want gaming to be free but that is the most unrealistic expectation to have. Devs are employees of companies, companies need to make money and to pay the employees.

This is why I suggest that the discussion cannot be centered around "is or isn't" with P2W, because it just isn't a discussion anymore. It goes absolutely nowhere. The discussion topic needs to shift to value behind what is being paid for, and the potentiality of predatory monetization practices. Much like some publishers trying to convince people that "AAAA" games are a thing now, that they need to cost $70 yet churn out a literal junk heap of a game, meanwhile something like Helldivers 2 costs $40, has minimal microtransactions and has quadruple the amount of content these apparent "AAAA" games have. That is something that you can probably have productive discussion around...not P2W.

[Leo G.4501]

40 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

Expansions aren’t p2w, expansions are the equivalent to CoD 1 and CoD 2, without restarting the entire world again and again…..

players want everything for nothing, that’s all this is lol

entertainment costs money, it’s that simple, every game on the planet is effectively p2w it’s a term that was created for extreme cases. Not just because the game costs money

It’s not a opinion, p2w was created as a description to games that demanded heavy micro transactions to gain power that wasn’t available from the game or made unacceptably short

P2W in itself however apply to every game on the market lol, anything that costs RL money is “paying”. 

FYI, p2w wasn't created to describe games with microtransactions. It was a term to describe anyone who used money to achieve an outcome that was perceived as winning. One of the earlier uses for the term was in the times of early MMOs like WoW and people would "pay to win" using real money trade to bypass what effectively at the time was the path to endgame (i.e. pay to progress).

The selling of xp boosters in games with heavy grind (granted, it was often in a microtransaction) was another version of this.

You're stuck in the argument of categorizing things. It's not that big of a deal. Times have changed.

[Leo G.4501]

38 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

I understand what your saying, I’m simply saying there’s no point paying attention to opinions that gw2 is p2w. 
 

these people won’t be happy til gaming becomes a 0 profit form of entertainment, they want everything and they want everything for free. 
 

We want to play games, they need to make money to create games, it’s that simple, just like you pay out £40 to take ur family to the cinema, or pay £80-£100 on a nice meal out.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing the game should be free. Although, in the past, it was probably a lot more likely for people to actually care about the value of the games they purchased, equating money/time spent to equivalent activities. It's not an outdated method but it's rather an antique...not because it's meaningless but rather it has become skewed. Technically, a player could just play free to play games for eternity and get infinite value from their game and on the other extreme, which games on the market are the most profitable, games like GW2 or P2W mobile gacha games? It's all a muddy mess, really.

I'd rather focus on predatory monetization practices while maximizing what a game can do to make profits. Even if that means adding in perceived "p2w" or addicting "gacha". So long as it's reasonable, I don't see a huge problem. Back when mounts were introduced and they had the random mount skin licenses, there were people up in arms about GW2 introducing gambling. GAMBLING! There's another term for you that has lost a lot of its meaning along with pay to win. But yeah, I argued back then that not only were the mount skin licenses thing not gambling but being merely cosmetic it should be fair game since the company needs to make money. People still complained but what can you do (people probably STILL complain about that along with outfits)? 

Edited March 9 by Leo G.4501

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Leo G.4501 said:

I don't think anyone is arguing the game should be free. Although, in the past, it was probably a lot more likely for people to actually care about the value of the games they purchased, equating money/time spent to equivalent activities. It's not an outdated method but it's rather an antique...not because it's meaningless but rather it has become skewed. Technically, a player could just play free to play games for eternity and get infinite value from their game and on the other extreme, which games on the market are the most profitable, games like GW2 or P2W mobile gacha games? It's all a muddy mess, really.

I'd rather focus on predatory monetization practices while maximizing what a game can do to make profits. Even if that means adding in perceived "p2w" or addicting "gacha". So long as it's reasonable, I don't see a huge problem. Back when mounts were introduced and they had the random mount skin licenses, there were people up in arms about GW2 introducing gambling. GAMBLING! There's another term for you that has lost a lot of its meaning along with pay to win. But yeah, I argued back then that not only were the mount skin licenses thing not gambling but being merely cosmetic it should be fair game since the company needs to make money. People still complained but what can you do (people probably STILL complain about that along with outfits)? 

Think u could argue gw2 is one of the least

gw2 Has the store and ability to buy gold sure.

but WoW has those same things with a paid sub and double the box prices honestly, gw2 is prolly one of the most consumer friendly mmorpgs on the market right now, the quantity you get with absolute minimal input is crazy

And no they do, when HoT as a expansion was launched the amount of screeching over the fact it cost money was huge

 

Edited March 9 by Puck.3697

[draxynnic.3719]

The mount skin thing is a bit like buying a set of cards from M:tG or something like that: you might not get the specific thing you're hoping for, but you're still getting something. I think it is a good thing that the option to buy a specific skin directly is there (just like how with MtG cards, if you really want a specific card you can find someone to sell it, it just might cost a lot if it's a rare card that a lot of people want). If the ONLY way to get the thing you specifically want is through a pay-to-try lucky dip, I think it's reasonable to label it as predatory.

That said, there is a greyzone in those situations where sure, you're always getting SOMETHING, but what you're getting is nevertheless still pretty close to being worthless compared to what you paid. Black lion keys fall within this grey zone, and I can certainly see why they're banned in some jurisdictions.

[Aenesthesia.1697]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:23 AM, igmolicious.5986 said:

As someone who owns all the expansions, I actually agree with this in part. I really wish at the very least specializations/weapons were available to core game players, but it does mean that they'd have to add ways for core-only players to get more hero points, which I feel like would like would most likely wind up being a gem store thing and still out of reach for at least a certain subset of people. I don't necessarily believe all the expansion story and masteries should be free (mounts could still be made available, but with less functionality if you don't have the expansion to get the mastery), as a free-to-play game like GW2 still needs a way to appease the NCSoft overlords' earnings expectations.

But it is not a free to play game. It's a buy to play game. The fact that they are giving away some content for free doesn't make it free to play. You only have access to what, 50% of the game for free? It's a lot, but not the whole game and the company still wants to sell the game they invested a lot of money, on to pay the wages of the developers and hopefully make a profit.  

[Cuks.8241]

For me gw2 is p2w for one simple reason, you can buy power and character progression with rmt. Gems to gold to leggies. 

But it doesnt bother me much because those are easy to get in game.

Buying expansions is fine. Although I would make some features baseline. Especially Warclaw. Weaponmaster I would agree also. I dont think it would impact sales much if at all.

[Obtena.7952]

It's completely weird how within a decade, some MMO players want content to be free and when it's not, they label it as P2W to justify their unreasonable expectations. The irony is that MMO's like this are some of the BEST value for money gaming entertainment you can get. 

Here is the kicker ... any label you want to apply doesn't matter. If the content has value to you, you buy it. If you don't buy it, then you don't have any reason to complain you don't have it or that people that do have it are open to options you don't have, regardless of whether those options make them "win" more than you do. 

Another common misconception here is the expectation that GW2 is going to drown you with that 'big score' loot prize and make you rich. It's just not that kind of game ... and it's not hard to see it isn't that kind of game before you even hit level 80. If you are pre-occupied with the 'big dirty' and ignore all the other value the game offers, that's not a game problem. It's a 'you' problem. 

Edited March 15 by Obtena.7952

[Leo G.4501]

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's completely weird how within a decade, some MMO players want content to be free and when it's not, they label it as P2W to justify their unreasonable expectations. The irony is that MMO's like this are some of the BEST value for money gaming entertainment you can get. 

A lot more than that has changed in the last decade in the land of MMOs and its players, but people have always had unreasonable expectations. This issue isn't as crazy or niche as you think, especially when now people aren't just comparing dollar/hour of gameplay anymore.  But you're right, the labels themselves don't matter. Only in the realm of optics did it ever matter. 

[Ashen.2907]

My employer does not get the benefits of my labor for free. I doubt that the OP works for free either. Why would anyone expect to get the fruit of another's labor without paying for it. Slavery is bad.

[Puck.3697]

On 3/15/2024 at 1:52 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

completely weird how within a decade, some MMO players want content to be free and when it's not, they label it as P2W to justify their unreasonable expectations. The irony is that MMO's like this are some of the BEST value for money gaming entertainment you can get

I think this is the first time I’ve seen obtena has post something I agree with.. 

[Leo G.4501]

Would have sworn he released a video about this before but this one is newer (today, in fact).

 

[draxynnic.3719]

Heheh, I was considering posting that myself but you beat me to it. He didn't say anything on whether he'd consider expansion packs to be PTW or just part of buying the game, though.

[Sobx.1758]

1 month ago OP decided to poke gw2 players with his "I didn't buy the expansion and didn't get that expnasion's content?? Unthinkable!" nonsense observation and didn't look back ever since.

10/10 

Edited March 25 by Sobx.1758

[zeyeti.8347]

"Bohooo me, i want content for free" (oh it rhymes ...) 

[Kuma.1503]

On 2/28/2024 at 3:29 PM, Jedrik.3109 said:

Pay to win?! 

This is a ridiculously disingenuous statement. The mental gymnastics to be able to state this is hilarious. 

Gamers will never agree on the definition of Pay 2 win. 

It is not a binary thing where a game either is or isn't pay to win. It is a spectrum. 

There is a wide umbrella of design choices that can be considered Pay to Win. The more of these a game includes, higher it will rank on the spectrum. 

Depending on which Pay 2 Win practices a person is sensitive to, that will determine whether the consider a game Pay 2 Win or not. Getting gamers to agree on which practices are excusable or not is impossible, because everyone is different. 

Gw2 falls low on the spectrum. However, it IS on the spectrum. Here are a few Pay 2 Win practices GW2 includes:

 

Pay for convenience - You can buy build templates, bag slots, bank tabs, character slots, ect. When I first started this game I had to constantly drop loot and other resources to make room in my bags. I deleted more max level characters than I can count to try out other classes. After spending money I don't have these problems. Most consider this a minor P2W element so it does not fall on many gamer's radar. 

Buying gold with real world money - Gold in Gw2 only gets a player so far. However it is possible to kit yourself out with legendary weapons and full ascended gear with a few credit card swipes. Skipping months worth of grind. This would be far more eggregious in a game like WoW where gear must be constantly upgraded, and player skill can be completely trumped by superior gear. Thanks to Gw2's horizontal gear progression, this is far less of an issue. Additionally, player skill matters far more than gear in Gw2. 

Pay for the best cosmetics - There are some great sets of gear that a player can earn in game. You can also buy gems with gold, so any cash shop item is technically earnable in game. Nontheless, if you consider Fashion Wars 2 the true endgame, then credit card swiping can absolutely give a player a leg up against their competition. 

Pay to skip grind - It is said that a real world job is the best gold farm in Gw2. Instead of spending hours in Drizzlwood or Silverwastes, you can work a job and convert your paycheck into gems. If you value your time more than a few extra dollars then you might see nothing wrong with this. As previously mentioned, A player can also swipe their way to a legendary this way. 

Pay for a head start - These take many forms. Story skips, level boosts, Exp boosts, more powerful starter gear (that you will eventually replace). These don't give players any lasting power. They will give a new player a head start on other new players, but the advantage will quickly diminish with time. 

 

If you don't mind any of these, then odds are, you don't consider Gw2 Pay to Win.

If someone did have a problem with these, for example, if they HATE inventory management and your inventory is always cluttered. They might see this as a design flaw, and see bag slots/bank tabs as ANET selling them the solution to this design flaw. If they fall under this camp then they might consider Gw2 pay to win. This difference of opinion has nothing to do with mental gymnastics, it simply comes down to what your prefrences are as a player. 

Personally, I think ANet struck a good balance. Gw2 is a Buy to play game with no sub fee. The very minor P2win elements the game does have are barely noticable for me. They're a small price to pay for being able to enjoy this game practically for free going on 5 years now. 

 

I do wish the game would stop putting loot containers in loot containers though. I'm trying to clean my inventory, nesting doll loot containers just make me want to rip my hair out. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8 by Kuma.1503