Revamp of Initiative.

[Sarafyna.2136]

Am I the only one that would like the Initiative to go away completely or at least have a revamp. Lessen the cost of Initiative or increase what we have. Thief seems stilted. It made sense at the start of  but now it appears to be more cumbersome than it really should be.

 

Might be the only one.

[Panda.1967]

I think a simple change could make a big difference… for instance, the lower your initiative the higher your initiative regen is. This would make it so you spend less time waiting on initiative for low cost abilities and can reliably use high cost abilities in a more timely manner without having to camp your auto attack for long periods of time.

[Zacchary.6183]

6 hours ago, Sarafyna.2136 said:

Am I the only one that would like the Initiative to go away completely or at least have a revamp. Lessen the cost of Initiative or increase what we have. Thief seems stilted. It made sense at the start of  but now it appears to be more cumbersome than it really should be.

 

Might be the only one.

You're not the only one. It is a big hinderance and should be changed. At some point I suggested adding a regular CD on weaponskills on top of the initiative cost. I also have a revamped thief writeup in the works with weaponskills untethered from initiative, but I have not gotten to it because specter is just bleh atm.

[Leo G.4501]

I don't like removing styles to appease the modern audience. That said, creating a middle ground could be an option. How you do that? I dunno, but I wouldn't want to just get rid of initiative just because some people that haven't adapted to it prefer something else.

Maybe a kind of hybrid initiative/charge system where every non-auto weapon skill has a charge of 1 and an associated cooldown cost just like everyone else but instead of waiting for the charge to come back, you can spend initiative instead. Basically, the weapon skills get 1 freebie and subsequent uses cost initiative until it recharges.

[Xelqypla.6817]

I think people who are used to burning cooldowns in a rotation will dump initiative on opening combat, leaving themselves waiting for regen.

Slow down. Keep some in the tank so you always have options.

[Szymon.5369]

Go away completely is a hard no, you have 8 other professions that don't use it, and it's central to Thief playstyle.

[Dadnir.5038]

Initiative is fine as it is, it's a part of the identity of thief that I, personally, wouldn't want the game to lose. On another hand I think stealth, revealed and stealth attack could all afford some work.

• Stealth is to "absolute" and lack drawbacks.
• Revealed is boring, it's neither a condition nor a boon and it lack support from traits for how easy the thief can produce it on himself.
• Stealth attack is plain toxic, most of the time it's a dangerously strong attack with no tell and only have "experience" as a counterplay.

[Antrix.4512]

Firstly, initiative is a class feature, and I see little point in even minor modifications.

Secondly, if I were you, I would think twice... then think again a few times... and then one more final check just in case, before asking developers like ANet to redo something that works quite well. And no, I don't mean they're bad, otherwise, they wouldn't have created GW2. It's just... how to put this gently - I think they'd better just fix the existing hundreds of bugs before adding new ones.

Edited March 14 by Antrix.4512

[remorseless.6352]

On 3/14/2024 at 2:06 AM, Zacchary.6183 said:

You're not the only one. It is a big hinderance and should be changed. At some point I suggested adding a regular CD on weaponskills on top of the initiative cost. I also have a revamped thief writeup in the works with weaponskills untethered from initiative, but I have not gotten to it because specter is just bleh atm.

Lol hope anet never listens to u

[ShadowKatt.6740]

22 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

• Stealth attack is plain toxic, most of the time it's a dangerously strong attack with no tell and only have "experience" as a counterplay.

What game are you playing? On my thief Attack and Stealth Attack are just tickle and tickle harder. I certainly don't feel threatened by a thief "Sneak attacking' me.

[Zacchary.6183]

12 hours ago, remorseless.6352 said:

Lol hope anet never listens to u

They have to some degree. For all three specs. Though, I am not responsible for more than 15% of all the concepts involved in each of them nor am I responsible for the years where thief was stuck in a near useless d/p DrD meta hell. Anet made it a point to cater to bad players, the top 1% of pvp and gatekeepers in terms of design. They made it a point to balancing damage based on single skill spam rather than overall DPS, as well. And it has ended up ruining the profession for many multiple times. In fact, you got your range disadvantage removed because I and some other thieves pushed for rifle HARD. You got additional roles and some cleave because I and some other thieves pushed for wells and support HARD. And while I don't care to ask for any thanks or recognition for putting any of my ideas out there, I do have this to say:

If you do not like my ideas, then I invite you to out-idea me.

[Batalix.2873]

I wouldn't be surprised if they do, but I have never agreed with the gutting of unique profession/espec identities.

[Beddo.1907]

Removing the entire mechanic is pretty much impossible.
Too much coding nightmare and balance readjusting for Anet and kills the entire class for a lot of players.

[Yasai.3549]

I always thought that Initiative should act less like "Ammo for skills" but a "Cooldown bypass cost" when casting a skill which is already on cooldown. 
 

This allows the Thief player to use their "optimal DPS skill" until they are out of Ini but still have 3 weapon skills and their auto available for casting while their Ini regenerates. 

So say if a Deadeye player uses Dagger/Dagger and is currently doing their DPS rotation all over the boss. They go D5 > Backstab > D5 Backstab > D5 Backstab : oh they're dry and D5 is on cooldown (say 15 seconds). At least they still have D2 D3 and D4 to use along with autos. They can then go back to bypassing cooldowns again once they can pay the ini price. 

[Funky.4861]

Initiative is fine as it is. You have the choice of blowing it all and autoattacking or learning to pace yourself and use skills/traits that generate initiative. If you add cooldowns to weapon skills, you basically have another revenant with more choice of utilities.

[Antycypator.9874]

The best thing about thief is being free to use all weapon skills as you like, with no cooldowns.

[Shiyo.3578]

On 3/13/2024 at 2:37 PM, Sarafyna.2136 said:

Am I the only one that would like the Initiative to go away completely or at least have a revamp. Lessen the cost of Initiative or increase what we have. Thief seems stilted. It made sense at the start of  but now it appears to be more cumbersome than it really should be.

 

Might be the only one.

Initiative is why I will never play thief in PvE. It makes it extremely boring.

PvP only class, when PvP is completely abandoned(WvW too).

Really weird.

[FrancisN.9276]

Initiative system is why I main a thief. I just hate looking at 4 different squares counting down and missing out more interesting things happening around me. Thief gameplay feels like total freedom - unbound by the old (almost outdated) CD skill system. I hope more future RPGs will be like this.

[Zacchary.6183]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:04 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

I always thought that Initiative should act less like "Ammo for skills" but a "Cooldown bypass cost" when casting a skill which is already on cooldown. 
 

This allows the Thief player to use their "optimal DPS skill" until they are out of Ini but still have 3 weapon skills and their auto available for casting while their Ini regenerates. 

So say if a Deadeye player uses Dagger/Dagger and is currently doing their DPS rotation all over the boss. They go D5 > Backstab > D5 Backstab > D5 Backstab : oh they're dry and D5 is on cooldown (say 15 seconds). At least they still have D2 D3 and D4 to use along with autos. They can then go back to bypassing cooldowns again once they can pay the ini price. 

This was the exact idea I proposed a while ago. Never got any traction because people like to gatekeep, or they are allergic to anything that doesn't make thieves a free kill from the other side of the aisle.

[Xelqypla.6817]

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

This was the exact idea I proposed a while ago. Never got any traction because people like to gatekeep, or they are allergic to anything that doesn't make thieves a free kill from the other side of the aisle.

Never got any traction because it's a bad idea.

Thief initiative cost and damage would get balanced around this. You aren't going to sneak extra skill usage past Anet.

If you have trouble understanding why things would be rebalanced, then think of any other class getting 10 initiative on top of their Cooldowns.

[Zacchary.6183]

27 minutes ago, Xelqypla.6817 said:

Never got any traction because it's a bad idea.

Thief initiative cost and damage would get balanced around this. You aren't going to sneak extra skill usage past Anet.

If you have trouble understanding why things would be rebalanced, then think of any other class getting 10 initiative on top of their Cooldowns.

That's standard, and it isn't about "extra skill usage". Its about keeping utility when the universal resource runs dry. Thief relies almost exclusively on active defense because it has next to zero passive defense. The utility from weaponskills are *required* for active defense to work and if initiative runs dry, utility access gets heavily restricted.

Also: 

Quote

then think of any other class getting 10 initiative on top of their Cooldowns.

I don't think any of you actually understand the concept, and that's the real problem here. It isn't a CD AND initiative requirement, its OR. You run out of initiative for any reason, you still have the other three weapon skills available. If you can fulfill the initiative cost while its still on CD, then you can use it. Explain to me how this is bad.

Edited March 20 by Zacchary.6183

[Cuks.8241]

11 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

I don't think any of you actually understand the concept, and that's the real problem here. It isn't a CD AND initiative requirement, its OR. You run out of initiative for any reason, you still have the other three weapon skills available. If you can fulfill the initiative cost while its still on CD, then you can use it. Explain to me how this is bad.

What would be the actual benefit? If I understand your concept correctly it's just a safety net for improper ini management. 

[Zacchary.6183]

Just now, Cuks.8241 said:

What would be the actual benefit? If I understand your concept correctly it's just a safety net for improper ini management. 

Yes, exactly. So its more noob friendly, so more people play it, so more players learn how to counter it, so more understand how badly the profession needs a revamp, so bad players can actually get better instead of taking to the forums to air their self-inflicted grief because of a one-trick pony one-shotting them through their blue berserker gear.

[Xelqypla.6817]

12 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

I don't think any of you actually understand the concept, and that's the real problem here. It isn't a CD AND initiative requirement, its OR. You run out of initiative for any reason, you still have the other three weapon skills available. If you can fulfill the initiative cost while its still on CD, then you can use it. Explain to me how this is bad.

No, I do understand it. Reread what I wrote.

I understand you guys wish to dump all your initiative into damage.

What your "great idea" would do is cause me to prioritize putting skills on Cooldown.

Oversimplifying the D/D earlier, I would D5, Backstab, D4, D3, D2. That way my skills start their cooldown and I still have ALL my initiative. THAT is where "extra skill usage" is coming from. I would do that so the cooldowns would "cool off" while I use initiative normally. They all go back to being a initiative-free use while I play normally.

This change gives YOU the ability to have an active defense while you burn your initiative for damage. What it gives ME is an initiative-free use of each skill every X number of seconds. It would make the +3 initiative from Trickery look like a joke.

It's far from bad. It's ridiculously powerful. So powerful that Anet would definitely nerf Initiative into the ground to compensate.

[Zacchary.6183]

11 minutes ago, Xelqypla.6817 said:

What your "great idea" would do is cause me to prioritize putting skills on Cooldown.

Oversimplifying the D/D earlier, I would D5, Backstab, D4, D3, D2. That way my skills start their cooldown and I still have ALL my initiative. THAT is where "extra skill usage" is coming from. I would do that so the cooldowns would "cool off" while I use initiative normally. They all go back to being a initiative-free use while I play normally.

No, you actually don't understand and I doubt you read Yasai's entire post.

Initiative is prioritized first and then cooldown. The initiative system hasn't changed. You run out of initiative first, then cooldowns apply. Should you have enough initiative to pay the initiative cost, regardless of cooldown, the skill will go off anyway. But then you must wait for whatever remaining cooldown is left or wait for initiative to regen to use it again. You will never have "ALL of your initiative" while anything is on cooldown unless you get it all back through traits and utilities. The "extra skill usage" is the singular cooldown buffer, and that is specifically meant to keep your other weaponskills from being locked out while you have no initiative. That is what they meant when they said "cooldown bypass".