WTF is Anet doing to WvW?

[Reztek.7805]

On 4/19/2024 at 7:44 AM, joneirikb.7506 said:

Tldr: Ranting.

So there's a few topics to break down here:

* Players
* Balance

They do depend heavily on each others, and making changes to one without taking the other into account will just fall flat on its face.

----

* Players:

So the short version is that players are different now than they where at launch/vanilla (2012-2015), and there are a lot of reasons as to why that is so and I don't think there's anyone that could even list all of those reasons. The important part here is that we're never going to get back the type of mentality we had back then, and this is more because of the players than the changes to the game.

Some of those changes in player behaviour is that:
* More reward driven
* More impatient
* Less skilled (in nearly all ways)
* Less goal driven/tenacious

Some of the obvious ways this changes the game mode, is that zerging becomes more and more popular, and less and less people want to play outside of zergs. The old "karma-train" (yeah I know, no karma involved any longer) becomes the most approachable and desire-able activity for a larger group of players than before, and steadily increasing.

We further see this with the "Participation" system, which makes a very large amount of players consider anything that isn't giving them participation to be a waste of time and thus not desire-able. This is one of the most behaviour shaping mechanics we have in the game mode today.

All of this together is already shaping the entire player-base as a whole toward attack and zerging (impatient, reward, easy), and away from defence (patience, outnumbered, less-rewards, community driven).

Where the "mechanics" that should work toward getting players to defy odds and keep fighting would be:

* Points
* Community (server, guild)

Has largely been ignored by the player-base over the years, until they're no longer sufficient to motivate enough players to make a change/difference. And this is more the fault of the players than of ANet.

We might agree on the current situation, but not the reasons.

Lots of players want an easymode, that has always been the case. Hence that's why map blobs are a thing since 2012. But Anet did everything to strengthen the blob, starting with the AoE cap. At the same time players where rewarded for not caring about the server/world and instead running in circles capping empty objectives. And the initiative to defend is being weakened further and further. Mix in unlimited server transfers, unnecessary guild features and hidden tags and there's not much left to encourage "communities".

So no, the fault is mostly Anets.

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Ok, so all of your points basically sums up into "Motivation". And how WR ruins your personal Motivation. And from what I could understand the question could be summed as "How do you think being put into WR as a solo player will affect Motivation?".

The answer to that is that it depends on the person in question.

Surely each of us will react differently to every type of change that development proposes to us. However, what I was trying to say is related to what I see emerging in this very post. Players complain because more material is needed to repair the tower wall, so for this stupid reason no one wants to defend a wall anymore. while the truth or the far more radical reason for defending that wall (even if it remains open) is only and exclusively when That tower will be perceived as ''your'' tower.

Again, belonging, identity, and even the diversity of servers/teams are the thing that makes this game mode stand out from all the others. I mean, let's really talk about mentality, how we want to play a team-based PvP game (that was the original project). When that open wall is no longer anyone's (or changes hands every 2 weeks in the name of balance), only then will you truly know what it means to abandon the defense forever. ( remember these words of mine. Or as Leonidas used to say : ''remember who we were'' 😉 )

Now, it is true that the mentality '' is '' of the player or of the different groups of players, but Anet has all the tools at its disposal to guide, give an indication, steer in a direction, on how this mode should be interpreted. And what I'm trying to say is that it's been doing it for quite some time now (basically since we saw the first beta coming) If you keep saying and proving to this community that this team game mode, they will be taken dismantled the teams, without providing a new game design, without contextualizing WR within WVW I say that you will only be able to reap what you are sowing.

Edited April 20 by Mabi black.1824

[Briadonis.8907]

I have to put my 2 cents in after playing this reset... .these are quite possibly the worst changes ever made to WvW.  I suspect a lot of players are very unhappy.

[Chaos God.1639]

are some players unhappy now because defense is more important?

Edited April 20 by Chaos God.1639

[Riba.3271]

7 hours ago, Bunny.9834 said:

On 4/19/2024 at 7:02 AM, LordHT.8297 said:

They know that the WvW player base is shrinking and they are afraid that blobmmanders stop playing the game and taking their hordes of zombies with them. So, they are being blackmailed by these guys and anet is making all the changes that these easy mode lovers demand.
Arenanet needs to trust in their player base and their game. If the lazy dinosaurs and their giant boomblobs leave the game other guilds will grow and take their places. We still have many medium and small guilds looking for a place in the sun even with the anet working hard against them. Just trust that the game tends to renew itself we have a fair and balanced and fun  environment that didn't  punish smallers groups and individual players.

Expand  

What these changes are doing are just continuing to kill servers that don't have a lot of blob guilds.  

Every time I see blobs on other servers, I just automatically log out of the WvW.

Do note that these blob guilds have much easier time now. So they will either be bored and disband, become weaker or opponents will finally adapt and become stronger.

What this patch did was actually make the game more fun for non-stackers since they can fight each other in objectives now, rather than balance being disorganised inexperienced people being able to defend against organised experienced people. 

[Cuks.8241]

The guilds I've played with mostly don't care about your objectives. If they attack one of your keeps is to check if there is any content available. Content as in will an enemy guild appear. They might fight the cloud for a bit and take the objective but that's pretty much the only option next to log out and try luck next time. Often they would easily take the objective even in the past but they won't because that's not the goal. The goal is to get a fight going. 

I didn't understand that in the past. But now after some years I don't care about flipping the keep for the 1000th times. It's either get some content or move to play something else. 

[XenesisII.1540]

20 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

The guilds I've played with mostly don't care about your objectives. If they attack one of your keeps is to check if there is any content available. Content as in will an enemy guild appear. They might fight the cloud for a bit and take the objective but that's pretty much the only option next to log out and try luck next time. Often they would easily take the objective even in the past but they won't because that's not the goal. The goal is to get a fight going. 

I didn't understand that in the past. But now after some years I don't care about flipping the keep for the 1000th times. It's either get some content or move to play something else. 

Which makes the ring changes even more baffling. 😏

Or did Anet think they were doing this for the benefit of the defenders, have the boon blob accidently cap quicker and be on their way. 🤭

Edited April 20 by XenesisII.1540

[Bunny.9834]

18 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

The guilds I've played with mostly don't care about your objectives. If they attack one of your keeps is to check if there is any content available. Content as in will an enemy guild appear. They might fight the cloud for a bit and take the objective but that's pretty much the only option next to log out and try luck next time. Often they would easily take the objective even in the past but they won't because that's not the goal. The goal is to get a fight going. 

I didn't understand that in the past. But now after some years I don't care about flipping the keep for the 1000th times. It's either get some content or move to play something else. 

I've said this before, the devs that keep pushing for this GvG boon ball meta NEEDS to make a separate instance where these guilds can do this.   These changes that cater to this specific type of content ruins the rest of this "cornerstone" game mode. 

So far they've ruined every counterplay to fight these blobs outside of another blob. From AOE damage (Meteor Shower, Burn Guards) to Boon Rips (Mesmer, Scourge, Spellbreaker). Now they've destroyed sieges. 

 

[Chaba.5410]

Just now, XenesisII.1540 said:

Which makes the ring changes even more baffling. 😏

No it doesn't.  Anet devs aren't making changes to cater to a particular playstyle no matter how cynical forum posters are.

[Chaba.5410]

11 minutes ago, Bunny.9834 said:

I've said this before, the devs that keep pushing for this GvG boon ball meta NEEDS to make a separate instance where these guilds can do this.   These changes that cater to this specific type of content

Man, which is it?  GvG boonballs want smaller capture rings so it's easier to cap structures?  Or GvG boonballs don't want structures because they're just looking for content aka other boonballs to fight?  Exactly who is being catered to by devs?

Edited April 20 by Chaba.5410

[Cuks.8241]

5 minutes ago, Bunny.9834 said:

I've said this before, the devs that keep pushing for this GvG boon ball meta NEEDS to make a separate instance where these guilds can do this.   These changes that cater to this specific type of content ruins the rest of this "cornerstone" game mode. 

So far they've ruined every counterplay to fight these blobs outside of another blob. From AOE damage (Meteor Shower, Burn Guards) to Boon Rips (Mesmer, Scourge, Spellbreaker). Now they've destroyed sieges. 

 

Eh, I don't see much difference today and years ago when judging a comped group vs pugs. If comped group was any good at any point, pugs never had a chance. Remember old retal. You didn't even need to attack the pugs, they killed themselves on your retal. There were also some good changes in the meta. We definitely have more squad support options now than ever. 

While I don't like some of the changes they made, strip nerfs don't really affect pugs. Pugs will never be able to coordinate strips regardless. And it's nice to see more different strip builds in general wvw groups like renegade.

I think discouraging gvg from wvw maps would be a very bad idea. The population is already slowly going down and I think it's the same for the number of good guilds that know how to play. What should be done is actually make taking objectives and winning a tier matter. Some incentive to actually play wvw. Players will play what's fun. If you make stakes higher, winning actually matter, that's fun for competitive players (I assume). If players actually start to play wvw and not just gvg under hidden tags somewhere where pugs can't find them all aspects of the mode (strong groups and roamers, scouts...) become important. 

[XenesisII.1540]

4 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Eh, I don't see much difference today and years ago when judging a comped group vs pugs. If comped group was any good at any point, pugs never had a chance. Remember old retal. You didn't even need to attack the pugs, they killed themselves on your retal. There were also some good changes in the meta. We definitely have more squad support options now than ever. 

More low-mid level tiered guilds are carried by the support meta, guilds like ViP don't quite get one pushed every fight, good for the big fight guilds to farm them 5sec slower I suppose.

 

4 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

While I don't like some of the changes they made, strip nerfs don't really affect pugs. Pugs will never be able to coordinate strips regardless. And it's nice to see more different strip builds in general wvw groups like renegade.

Constantly nerfing it doesn't help either way, they're taking away the option smaller groups had to use on bigger groups. Highly organized groups are the ones who are least affected by those changes as they carry more firepower than low to mid level groups, they certainly don't need it for pugs, while pugs/smaller groups will always need it against them, even as unorganized as it is. Outright taking it away made it worse for the lower levels of organization.

 

4 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I think discouraging gvg from wvw maps would be a very bad idea. The population is already slowly going down and I think it's the same for the number of good guilds that know how to play. What should be done is actually make taking objectives and winning a tier matter. Some incentive to actually play wvw. Players will play what's fun. If you make stakes higher, winning actually matter, that's fun for competitive players (I assume). If players actually start to play wvw and not just gvg under hidden tags somewhere where pugs can't find them all aspects of the mode (strong groups and roamers, scouts...) become important. 

At this point I think maps run by gvg/fight groups have a negative affect on maps, worse with the support meta, some don't like other groups on the map taking their "content", some don't bother to defend objectives they are just there to fight whatever. While these groups will say pugs make half the map population useless for fighting it also works the other way around with them clogging up maps invisible and defenders can't get enough to defend something on a queued map, while that invised groups is off to some remote tower trying to pull a fight while the defender lose a t3 keep because that invised groups says they can't take on the enemy blob, then why are you even on the queued map when 3 other open maps are available. Kinda pulling that from a recent situation. 🤷‍♂️

Enemies like Indo tend to also kill content when groups fight him once, figure out they can't beat him and run away to another corner or even another map. They also drive down and out pug commanders who might be willing to take a shot at driving the map, but when you see a blob group like Flux or Indo there is just no point to playing that map, you're just feeding those groups. Of course the answer is always, well run your own organized meta group, and the answer to that is, not everyone wants to play like that, if they did they're already in those groups. When boon balls leave the map more pug/havoc commanders are willing to tag up, that's a fact, it happens all the time.

Those players always say they want competitive gameplay, so why aren't you all running monthly gvg tournies and what not? oh and don't make the excuses of different tiers, there's eotm and now guild hall arenas to use. Instead you can find them slumming it in keeps farming pugs for bags.

No, the real answer is to make a separate rated battleground for those groups, or make a 25v25 spvp map for their tournament system, it should have been done long ago. Fight guilds were better back in the day, these days they don't care about wvw, grew fat and lazy, get catered to for their meta, and overall have become a blight to wvw game mode instead.

Go ahead and wutface me about it -->

[Cuks.8241]

38 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

More low-mid level tiered guilds are carried by the support meta, guilds like ViP don't quite get one pushed every fight, good for the big fight guilds to farm them 5sec slower I suppose.

 

Constantly nerfing it doesn't help either way, they're taking away the option smaller groups had to use on bigger groups. Highly organized groups are the ones who are least affected by those changes as they carry more firepower than low to mid level groups, they certainly don't need it for pugs, while pugs/smaller groups will always need it against them, even as unorganized as it is. Outright taking it away made it worse for the lower levels of organization.

 

At this point I think maps run by gvg/fight groups have a negative affect on maps, worse with the support meta, some don't like other groups on the map taking their "content", some don't bother to defend objectives they are just there to fight whatever. While these groups will say pugs make half the map population useless for fighting it also works the other way around with them clogging up maps invisible and defenders can't get enough to defend something on a queued map, while that invised groups is off to some remote tower trying to pull a fight while the defender lose a t3 keep because that invised groups says they can't take on the enemy blob, then why are you even on the queued map when 3 other open maps are available. Kinda pulling that from a recent situation. 🤷‍♂️

Enemies like Indo tend to also kill content when groups fight him once, figure out they can't beat him and run away to another corner or even another map. They also drive down and out pug commanders who might be willing to take a shot at driving the map, but when you see a blob group like Flux or Indo there is just no point to playing that map, you're just feeding those groups. Of course the answer is always, well run your own organized meta group, and the answer to that is, not everyone wants to play like that, if they did they're already in those groups. When boon balls leave the map more pug/havoc commanders are willing to tag up, that's a fact, it happens all the time.

Those players always say they want competitive gameplay, so why aren't you all running monthly gvg tournies and what not? oh and don't make the excuses of different tiers, there's eotm and now guild hall arenas to use. Instead you can find them slumming it in keeps farming pugs for bags.

No, the real answer is to make a separate rated battleground for those groups, or make a 25v25 spvp map for their tournament system, it should have been done long ago. Fight guilds were better back in the day, these days they don't care about wvw, grew fat and lazy, get catered to for their meta, and overall have become a blight to wvw game mode instead.

Go ahead and wutface me about it -->

Most groups we are talking about are not really gvg groups. They are either guild groups, perhaps with friends or just public discord groups. Many players are in several guilds anyway and run with the guild that is currently running. In the end it's the usual players that play together in various comps. These groups can still be decent. Compared to a pug cloud it's all the same anyway, on another level.

25vs25 or whatever number you choose is a very specific and large number. It would just not cut as a separate game mode, not today with the amount of guilds and players we have. It would work in form of tournaments, which is not much different to now. But on a random week night these players would still play in whatever comp they are playing now. Maybe as a guild group in whatever number is online or in a public discord group in whatever number they can muster. 

And if you actually somehow force these players in a different game mode. That is actually played constantly in a specific format. (Which I think is impossible at this game's age). Well you will be losing them from wvw. You know where the good commanders that run public groups (voice or no voice) come from? Exactly from these guilds. And what are you left with? Rag tag groups of players that don't want to organise and communicate with each other (no, map chat is not a good form of communication) that somehow reach an objective gate and wait who will drop a ram or spam aoe from walls.

[Cael.3960]

Interesting that no one considers the time and effort required to assemble and train up a quality guild group. To theorycraft a comp, build up an understanding of how and when to use it, and then execute it effectively in the field. To hear many of people on these forums, all you need is to get 50 people into a squad and they can obliterate anything, anywhere, anytime. 

I've seen 30-man groups annihilate 60+ with virtually no losses. That disparity of skill, leadership and coordination has a far more significant impact than simple numbers. 

But clearly players with zero inclination towards improvement or collaboration with their server mates deserve a way to win against something that takes months or even years to build. For all the complaints about 'easymode' blobs, you sure you aren't asking for the exact same thing for anti-social solos?

[One more for the road.8950]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Most groups we are talking about are not really gvg groups. They are either guild groups, perhaps with friends or just public discord groups. Many players are in several guilds anyway and run with the guild that is currently running. In the end it's the usual players that play together in various comps. These groups can still be decent. Compared to a pug cloud it's all the same anyway, on another level.

25vs25 or whatever number you choose is a very specific and large number. It would just not cut as a separate game mode, not today with the amount of guilds and players we have. It would work in form of tournaments, which is not much different to now. But on a random week night these players would still play in whatever comp they are playing now. Maybe as a guild group in whatever number is online or in a public discord group in whatever number they can muster. 

And if you actually somehow force these players in a different game mode. That is actually played constantly in a specific format. (Which I think is impossible at this game's age). Well you will be losing them from wvw. You know where the good commanders that run public groups (voice or no voice) come from? Exactly from these guilds. And what are you left with? Rag tag groups of players that don't want to organise and communicate with each other (no, map chat is not a good form of communication) that somehow reach an objective gate and wait who will drop a ram or spam aoe from walls.

This so much. GvG is already an own game mode. It even has the occasional tournament. It has a different meta and rules, with rounds and points, and mostly played 15 vs 15. The last big thing on EU was a draft tourney before Christmas iirc, with six teams, casters and several arena instances. I guess ppl in this forum has no idea, and just calls guilds playing or open tags with a guild core for "GvG". Several people doing GvG doesn't really play WvW any more.

It is a much smaller scene now than it used to be though, with recruitment problems.

Edited April 20 by One more for the road.8950

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Most groups we are talking about are not really gvg groups. They are either guild groups, perhaps with friends or just public discord groups. Many players are in several guilds anyway and run with the guild that is currently running. In the end it's the usual players that play together in various comps. These groups can still be decent. Compared to a pug cloud it's all the same anyway, on another level.

These are the low-mid tiers guild I'm talking about, you can get good fights from these groups still, many still run in lower numbers, it's the super sweaty or blob guilds that ruin content on a map, the ones that sweep through a map unopposed because they're too big or too meta for anyone to bother with, other than clueless pugs who will defend stuff no matter what, everyone else just avoids them. Making rings smaller isn't going to suddenly make them come to you.

 

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

25vs25 or whatever number you choose is a very specific and large number. It would just not cut as a separate game mode, not today with the amount of guilds and players we have. It would work in form of tournaments, which is not much different to now. But on a random week night these players would still play in whatever comp they are playing now. Maybe as a guild group in whatever number is online or in a public discord group in whatever number they can muster. 

25v25 was the old gvg numbers, you could make 10's 15's 20's, it isn't the only bracket they could make. Still plenty of guilds around for this.

 

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

And if you actually somehow force these players in a different game mode. That is actually played constantly in a specific format. (Which I think is impossible at this game's age). Well you will be losing them from wvw. You know where the good commanders that run public groups (voice or no voice) come from? Exactly from these guilds. And what are you left with? Rag tag groups of players that don't want to organise and communicate with each other (no, map chat is not a good form of communication) that somehow reach an objective gate and wait who will drop a ram or spam aoe from walls.

Well what's the matter with that? Why wouldn't you want to go somewhere more private for competition? You all don't want to fight with allies anyways. Wouldn't it be better for you to face each other under same team sizes for the "challenge"?

The meta is super stifling to the game mode, it's another barrier of entry for pugs. I'm sure there's plenty of fresh face pug and havoc commanders, (plenty who started as a pug commanders and created their own guild in fact many guilds started this way), would tag up more often if they weren't under the threat of a super meta blob chasing them at every corner because they're desperate to get content for their 50, or under constant pressure to run perfect meta comp for every fight to succeed.

You think forcing these competitive players to face each other in another game mode is bad, yet it's ok to force everyone else into gvg mode? Well, that's been going on for like a decade now, so how's that working out for wvw numbers? The devs been buffing boon balls for three years now, yet they still feel the need to nerf game play in order to force people into fights with those elite players? Why has pug commanding been dying off over the years?

 

9 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

This so much. GvG is already an own game mode. It even has the occasional tournament. It has a different meta and rules, with rounds and points, and mostly played 15 vs 15. The last big thing on EU was a draft tourney before Christmas iirc, with six teams, casters and several arena instances. I guess ppl in this forum has no idea, and just calls guilds playing or open tags with a guild core for "GvG". Several people doing GvG doesn't really play WvW any more.

It is a much smaller scene now than it used to be though, with recruitment problems.

6 teams of 15.... from 27 different servers.... But yeah lets force everyone in wvw to play this way... 😏

Huh recruitment problems, I wonder why.

[One more for the road.8950]

6 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

6 teams of 15.... from 27 different servers.... But yeah lets force everyone in wvw to play this way... 😏

Huh recruitment problems, I wonder why.

Well, it was 6 teams of 18 plus lead, so 19, you need bench. Add the people arranging it, that didn't fight. And it was all done in a week, with all the matches during the weekend so you had to have the entire weekend off as well as do rehearsals in the evenings with your team during the week before. As it was a draft, and ppl had to get used to each other and the leads tactics.

I'd say that's not bad. Was quite the audience as well.

Edit: Oh, and 15 servers, this was EU.. Can't fight cross-region.

Edited April 20 by One more for the road.8950

[One more for the road.8950]

56 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

6 teams of 15.... from 27 different servers.... But yeah lets force everyone in wvw to play this way... 😏

 

Huh recruitment problems, I wonder why.

Oh... and ... force everyone in WvW to play this way? What? This is not even done in WvW unless you count the arena in EotM (or guild halls now). This is matches. Which needs to play without interference. 

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

Their cornerstone has crumbled. This last set of changes were ill-conceived.  They just play in blobs and want to take structures easier.  Much like all those they mentioned alliances, they're just play lip service to game balance - both by player class and by game mechanics.  My playtime is way down since this change.  Maybe that's a good thing, but I think its going down for a lot of other people and that's probably not a good thing for anet. 

[prototypedragon.1406]

They'll go for the emergency waypoints next.🤡 If a tower or keep is entered by a opposing team and the objective has that tactic equipped it shall then be ( updated)changed when  the tactics are  pulled by that team then an opposing team can use that Emergency waypoint. No more need for siege or the walls or mounts. Just think of the savings of gold. When in the old days just to upgrade tiers  for objectives it cost silver up to several gold at times. I think anymore I only login for 2 to 3 hours peer week anymore just due to the constant state anet has been letting it rot due to lack of resources/ questionable decisions at best.(mostly pve take main priority as many have known for years so it's not a big surprise for even the newest of players).It may not be long  now till wvw fully goes the way of the original Warhammer age of reckoning did.

[TheGrimm.5624]

So Anet mind sharing what kitten groups you were running with? I mean this should be fair so the rest of us can 'discuss' this with them yes?

Edited April 21 by TheGrimm.5624

[prototypedragon.1406]

14 hours ago, Bunny.9834 said:

I've said this before, the devs that keep pushing for this GvG boon ball meta NEEDS to make a separate instance where these guilds can do this.   These changes that cater to this specific type of content ruins the rest of this "cornerstone" game mode. 

So far they've ruined every counterplay to fight these blobs outside of another blob. From AOE damage (Meteor Shower, Burn Guards) to Boon Rips (Mesmer, Scourge, Spellbreaker). Now they've destroyed sieges. 

 

The GvG's got guildhall arenas they can dance around in.

[Kranlor Greyhelm.8417]

10 hours ago, Cael.3960 said:

I've seen 30-man groups annihilate 60+ with virtually no losses. That disparity of skill, leadership and coordination has a far more significant impact than simple numbers. 

Skill and leadership have an impact, sure. As do numbers. But the impact of ALL of those things is way less than the one ANET god of composition.

You get a skilled, well led group of 50 with a composition of random classes and specs and put it up against a poorly led, less skilled group of 30 with a perfect meta composition and there is only going to be one outcome. And it will be the same fight after fight after fight.

ANET have decided that their boonball can only be challenged by another boonball that's equally well composed. Only when the compositions are both equally good will skill, tactics and numbers start to have an impact on the result. In the meantime, anyone that doesn't want to play boonball is just food for the boonball.

I've logged out of WvW for the week after getting wood on Friday. Because WSR isn't fun to play, and facing a massive boonball on every map that we now have zero chance to stop is just painful. If this is what ANET want WvW to be, then I just won't be playing it. I suspect I won't be alone.

[TheGrimm.5624]

16 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Do note that these blob guilds have much easier time now. So they will either be bored and disband, become weaker

No, lol they just zerg more. They know that we have less resistant's so they roll on and keep rolling. This is what we all were talking about in giving ktrains more options to roll on. They don't get bored, they roll forward.

[Bunny.9834]

1 hour ago, prototypedragon.1406 said:

The GvG's got guildhall arenas they can dance around in.

Which apparently they're not using cause I keep seeing them in BL south camps doing their GvG battles.