urd.8306 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 I want to meet the person that thinks bruteforcing your way into a keep should be the #1 thing in this game mode. 7 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said: Being constantly outnumbered will definitely affect the type of content you choose to propose. That's for sure. But again, these changes don't embrace the problems of balanced servers. Or let's put it another way. If by hypothesis we get 3 numerically identical sides, in your opinion these changes force players to make decisions and act accordingly by helping the content to emerge, or not. Totally in equal numbers yes i totally agree with it, but WvW has become everything except equal similiar numbers and will never be similiar group sizes, unless theres 2 queues with mostly minstrelkls colliding with each other. Atm getting farmed by several guild groups ktrain and pvd... been like this for quite a few hours and will continue trough NA timezone most probably as usual. I am just done i think.. i find the mentality on the devs way to much lamer alike carrying most big groups against small ones. Edited April 18 by Aeolus.3615 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 5 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said: So what has changed I wonder? The players perhaps? What changed is we got some devs for the game mode who are actually doing something with it after years of inattention. We've been playing WvW for so long with buffs to defense that now we feel it's normal and are afraid of any changes to it. Sept 2015 https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-objective-claiming-in-world-vs-world/ "can be used to enhance the functionality and defense of an objective or to give teams an edge in the open field." "Improvements are upgrades to an objective that give it better defenses” “Tactics are objective-based abilities that players can activate to temporarily boost or defend an objective.” Here's a fun read: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/search/forum/114?page=1&q=defense "On my server Im the primary defense commander... The NPCs and automated defenses are god awful strong. Try to attack something with 10 players, you dont have much of a chance if even just 1 enemy comes to defend. Small groups have no chance... My prediction is that attacking a tower or keep will be building a dozen trebs at max distance and throwing rocks for 30m until a wall breaks. Theres always the standard… just swarm the objective with 50 ppl and 10 omegas method. I dont think anyone is excited about this new type of wvw.... Prediction says there will either be map que size blobs attacking objectives or roving gank squads of mesmers with very little in between, if theres players at all. More likely, the difficulty of grinding through the NPCs will deter attackers if theres any defense. They will simply scout for undefended structures and take those instead." 1 1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) Why "no one" plays Desert BL? Where did all the havoc sized groups go? Defense buffs: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Desert-Borderland-Map/page/1#post6556565 "But its not really designed for small groups or havoc though. The map was designed, in general, to be a defender’s paradise. - increased cost of guild catas (havoc’s primary tool) - structure upgrade speed, auto upgrades - oppressive keep lord mechanics - limited approach options to structures - structures laidout with uncounterable defensive siege placement locations by design - addition of powerful buffs available via guild halls encourage joining and playing with larger guilds (damage reduction, invuln, supply drop, airship, chilling fog, etc etc) - addition of emergency waypoints encourage groups to stay blobbed up as the e-waypoint allows the blob to respond quickly if needed - auto scouting/radar for objectives with no defensive counter option limits the ‘point-blank w/ splash damage’ option for offensive siege placement - strong defensive siege addition in shield gens (which reach and work through walls and gates)" https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Desert-Borderland-Map/page/1#post6556519 " nobody wants to go on the offensive on this map with a large, fighty group, and so there’s little to no action, so defenders eventually leave the map leaving it open to ktrainers." Edited April 18 by Chaba.5410 1 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy.3728 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 On 4/17/2024 at 5:42 AM, Nidome.1365 said: I've been playing GW2 since launch and WvW close to that. Over the last year Anet have just been making changes that have been destroying WvW. Another 6 months with more changes like this and WvW will become unplayable. What is the point of having objectives any more? Every change makes them less defensible. Guess that's the plan then. Half rides the karma train and the other half does gvg. Although the updates look ridiculous at first glance, I'm curious to see what they will do/change. How the players will adapt. Whether they'll come up with something (because karma trains are really too boring to keep up with). It's kind of exciting. Maybe the changes should have been even more drastic. Just for a change, a change that can affect the overall actual gameplay (boonballing is almost as boring as Choo Choo Karmatrain - what's the difference between Boonball and Karmatrain? The karmatrain at least moves to win 🤣 ) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinas Dragonbane.2978 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 51 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: Why "no one" plays Desert BL? Where did all the havoc sized groups go? Defense buffs: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Desert-Borderland-Map/page/1#post6556565 "But its not really designed for small groups or havoc though. The map was designed, in general, to be a defender’s paradise. - increased cost of guild catas (havoc’s primary tool) - structure upgrade speed, auto upgrades - oppressive keep lord mechanics - limited approach options to structures - structures laidout with uncounterable defensive siege placement locations by design - addition of powerful buffs available via guild halls encourage joining and playing with larger guilds (damage reduction, invuln, supply drop, airship, chilling fog, etc etc) - addition of emergency waypoints encourage groups to stay blobbed up as the e-waypoint allows the blob to respond quickly if needed - auto scouting/radar for objectives with no defensive counter option limits the ‘point-blank w/ splash damage’ option for offensive siege placement - strong defensive siege addition in shield gens (which reach and work through walls and gates)" https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Desert-Borderland-Map/page/1#post6556519 " nobody wants to go on the offensive on this map with a large, fighty group, and so there’s little to no action, so defenders eventually leave the map leaving it open to ktrainers." Hey I already responded to this thread back then! Is this a little off track from this thread though? Havocs still existed in 2017 during this thread though, but were soon to start dwindling with the advent of more and better healers and easier strong zerg classes(and gliding and mounts). Most people's gripes about desert are the due to the fact that they just don't know it, even 9 years in. My guild's highest ranked and most hours of wvw guy is lost in there if he has no tag to follow, which is a LOT of the wvw playerbase. Literally as one of the last havoc guilds left, the red map has been the best for us, where havoc in alpine is much more difficult due to quick response times with all the straight lines from objective to objective. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cael.3960 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 One thing I'm already seeing from both solo/small and large scale groups is an abundant use of supply drain. Doesn't matter how big the enemy group is if they don't have enough supply to build siege. Have a few solos/roamers shadow larger groups and plant supply traps in their path, on the usual siege placement locations, and any choke a group has to pass through. Just a few can drain most groups to the point where they're lucky to have enough for a pair of flame rams/catapults which can easily be destroyed by a handful of defenders and friendly siege.. If they want to attack something bigger than a t2 tower they're forced to knock on the gate, and at that point you can concentrate all your friendly siege on top of them with walls and nearby portals available to sally out at any time for opportunistic clashes. It's even better if you have equal numbers inside the objective because there's literally nothing they can do to break inside and win, anyone foolish enough to attack an objective without hundreds of supply is just a bag waiting to happen. Of course this was always a valid strategy, and abused in particular by a number of guilds and servers. But if there's one thing the most recent patch has done it's force people to evaluate stale tactics and try something that hasn't been done in a while. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luranni.9470 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 16 minutes ago, Cael.3960 said: One thing I'm already seeing from both solo/small and large scale groups is an abundant use of supply drain. Doesn't matter how big the enemy group is if they don't have enough supply to build siege. Have a few solos/roamers shadow larger groups and plant supply traps in their path, on the usual siege placement locations, and any choke a group has to pass through. Just a few can drain most groups to the point where they're lucky to have enough for a pair of flame rams/catapults which can easily be destroyed by a handful of defenders and friendly siege.. If they want to attack something bigger than a t2 tower they're forced to knock on the gate, and at that point you can concentrate all your friendly siege on top of them with walls and nearby portals available to sally out at any time for opportunistic clashes. It's even better if you have equal numbers inside the objective because there's literally nothing they can do to break inside and win, anyone foolish enough to attack an objective without hundreds of supply is just a bag waiting to happen. Of course this was always a valid strategy, and abused in particular by a number of guilds and servers. But if there's one thing the most recent patch has done it's force people to evaluate stale tactics and try something that hasn't been done in a while. Managing supply is just too much of a slog. As such, Supply traps have been renamed to "Welcome Mats" that grant boons to all enemies in 5k radius. 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
random.9803 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 After 12 years I surrender ,the WvW game mode has no interest for me now. Well done powers that be . 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cael.3960 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Luranni.9470 said: Managing supply is just too much of a slog. As such, Supply traps have been renamed to "Welcome Mats" that grant boons to all enemies in 5k radius. Sorry, my bad. I shouldn't expect players to do more than the bare minimum necessary to get and maintain participation in WvW. I should also expect them to complain about everything else though. As for other options, why not require anyone who puts down siege to pay 1 gold to whichever guild owns the objective? Friendly or hostile. Whoever was upset about the loss of Mystic Coins due to the nerfed Aura buffs can get his money back. Edited April 18 by Cael.3960 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said: Hey I already responded to this thread back then! Is this a little off track from this thread though? Havocs still existed in 2017 during this thread though, but were soon to start dwindling with the advent of more and better healers and easier strong zerg classes(and gliding and mounts). Most people's gripes about desert are the due to the fact that they just don't know it, even 9 years in. My guild's highest ranked and most hours of wvw guy is lost in there if he has no tag to follow, which is a LOT of the wvw playerbase. Literally as one of the last havoc guilds left, the red map has been the best for us, where havoc in alpine is much more difficult due to quick response times with all the straight lines from objective to objective. Perhaps it's a little offtrack. I included it because the comment points out some of the buffs to defense that were also implemented in Alpine and EBG. Redbl is in such a weird state because it's either queued for some big defense event with people hating to get around in it because they never go there and get lost or it's empty of defending blobs which frees up access to both small groups or zergs who love to ktrain empty maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, Cael.3960 said: One thing I'm already seeing from both solo/small and large scale groups is an abundant use of supply drain. Supply trap is the most efficient use of supply for defense and it's always been aggravating when asking people calling out zergs in map chat to use them and they don't. It takes more than one person to be planting them because each player is limited to one of each type of trap at a time. Then they complain about being unable to defend against zergs. /facepalm 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 53 minutes ago, Luranni.9470 said: Managing supply is just too much of a slog. As such, Supply traps have been renamed to "Welcome Mats" that grant boons to all enemies in 5k radius. When this comes out in the next patch I am going to expect a new video. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 18 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said: When this comes out in the next patch I am going to expect a new video. Surprised they haven't done a new toy which rolls out a red carpet, would be neat to place this at the lord room ramps as the blobs roll into your objectives. 😏 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy.3728 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 50 minutes ago, random.9803 said: After 12 years I surrender ,the WvW game mode has no interest for me now. What? Why? Because of smaller claim circles? The only little game breaking from this update may be the golem not causing the keep to go in fight. While it looks like it only favours sneak attacks, it also values and/or brings back the good old objective scout again and for t3 keeps it means the defenders still can use the wp. 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luranni.9470 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 23 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said: When this comes out in the next patch I am going to expect a new video. I have felt a song coming on..... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 minute ago, Lucy.3728 said: the golem not causing the keep to go in fight. While it looks like it only favours sneak attacks, it also values and/or brings back the good old objective scout again and for t3 keeps it means the defenders still can use the wp. Maybe I am reading this one wrong, but are your referring to this: Siege golems no longer cause capture objectives to be contested in WvW. This is in regards to golems to be used to block an attack to hold a ring. I don't think golems attacking a structure are going to leave the WP free. I haven't watched that but fairly certain this was to remove that defensive tactic of having people jump in a golem to force attackers to clear it giving defenders more time to get to the fight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy.3728 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 6 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said: This is in regards to golems to be used to block an attack to hold a ring. I don't think golems attacking a structure are going to leave the WP free. I haven't watched that but fairly certain this was to remove that defensive tactic of having people jump in a golem to force attackers to clear it giving defenders more time to get to the fight. Ok, I misunderstood it then. Man, Anet really hates defence. Why is it even a task in daily/weekly rotation then? Needs to be removed there too. Better be replaced by: Didn't defend a single objective (as new daily and weekly) Edited April 18 by Lucy.3728 2 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 24 minutes ago, Lucy.3728 said: Ok, I misunderstood it then. Man, Anet really hates defence. Why is it even a task in daily/weekly rotation then? Needs to be removed there too. Better be replaced by: Didn't defend a single objective (as new daily and weekly) The golems are an irony personally. When the nerf came down about holding a camp with a mount the question was raised why then should a Golem be able to so. There were a number of answers but it generally came down to the golem cost supply the mount was free. So it became more of a practice for defenders to set them up. Most attacking players adapted by simply targeting the golem first and at appropriate times or using them as bait target for incoming defenders since you knew where they were headed. Defenders will adapt, or change their roles. If we suddenly see more complaints about gankers then I would see that as more scouts are less worried about holding and scouting but instead are going back to just picking players off trying to get on the maps. We will see in the next few weeks. Defending fits that rule. 10% will never defend, 10% will always defend. 80% will defend if they can get something out of it. So the hardcore might still try and defend, the question is what will they do to encourage others. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 7 hours ago, urd.8306 said: I want to meet the person that thinks bruteforcing your way into a keep should be the #1 thing in this game mode. Probably the same person who expects to find duels in a keep. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 4 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said: Why "no one" plays Desert BL? Where did all the havoc sized groups go? Defense buffs: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Desert-Borderland-Map/page/1#post6556565 "But its not really designed for small groups or havoc though. The map was designed, in general, to be a defender’s paradise. - increased cost of guild catas (havoc’s primary tool) - structure upgrade speed, auto upgrades - oppressive keep lord mechanics - limited approach options to structures - structures laidout with uncounterable defensive siege placement locations by design - addition of powerful buffs available via guild halls encourage joining and playing with larger guilds (damage reduction, invuln, supply drop, airship, chilling fog, etc etc) - addition of emergency waypoints encourage groups to stay blobbed up as the e-waypoint allows the blob to respond quickly if needed - auto scouting/radar for objectives with no defensive counter option limits the ‘point-blank w/ splash damage’ option for offensive siege placement - strong defensive siege addition in shield gens (which reach and work through walls and gates)" https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Desert-Borderland-Map/page/1#post6556519 " nobody wants to go on the offensive on this map with a large, fighty group, and so there’s little to no action, so defenders eventually leave the map leaving it open to ktrainers." Yea but HoT was like 9 years ago. Obviously the map was trash on release much like the expansion and a lot of these things were dealt with. For example, catas were reduced in supply cost, and lords were nerfed. They also had those shrines that made it easier to get around, as well as implementing gliding to reduce the verticality. Now by then the map had already gathered its terrible reputation, some of it deserved. Also this... limited approach options to structures Is a giant ???? considering all desert BL towers are much wider and you can't survey all the walls at a single glance after going on. NWT on desert for example can be attacked from 2 walls from the front, from the waterfall area in the west, and also way in the back. I'm not going to detail every structure but it is ridiculously easy to ninja stuff on desert BL and also a reason why it's so popular for k-trains. A lot of people don't like defending it, because it requires a good deal more effort to even scout an individual structure. I mean I also thought tacts were a bad idea at a time and most of them were toned down already a lot, such as dragon banners. Oh btw, you also left out the oh so popular megalaser event, an event that rendered all these defensive advantages moot in many cases. Now obviously some of these changes had a negative effect on alpine, though at the time desert was supposed to replace Alpine. They eventually brought Alpine back without understanding any of the implications. Finally, what you also conveniently left out about 9 years of power creep. Beyond the roadbump that was the 2020 nerfs, our characters are far stronger compared to the guards that have remained relatively the same until the recent "buff" to the lord. Simply put, it's far easier to kill objective lords then it was before. Even from PoF to SotO, we already see a significant increase in damage, much less from HoT. Edited April 18 by ArchonWing.9480 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said: Yea but HoT was like 9 years ago. The fact of which was intended to support my statement that: "We've been playing WvW for so long with buffs to defense that now we feel it's normal and are afraid of any changes to it. " We still have some of those buffs to defense. And what's changed is the devs are back to making changes after we've been so long used to very little. Edited April 18 by Chaba.5410 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Just now, Chaba.5410 said: The fact of which was intended to support my point that: "We've been playing WvW for so long with buffs to defense that now we feel it's normal and are afraid of any changes to it. " Not when a lot of players may not even have been around during 2015, much less to form this strawman at that time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: The fact of which was intended to support my statement that: "We've been playing WvW for so long with buffs to defense that now we feel it's normal and are afraid of any changes to it. " That's a load of bs really. It's a rather one-sided approach. I could've argued the same if defenses were buffed and the attackers were complaining. 3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: We still have some of those buffs to defense. Yeah barely and I bet they aren't safe if the boonballers hate them aswell. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Guild halls and guild cata cost probably did more damage to havoc guilds than the maps and objective upgrades. Not to mention the fact that most zergs don't care/appreciate when havoc prepared keeps for take downs, everyone just brute forces their way in anyways, dispute the humongous amount of defenses everyone seems to be believe is bogging the game down. Fact is no one wants to work for their captures anymore, they want the 5mins one and done. 🤷♂️ 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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