WTF is Anet doing to WvW?

[Dark Dvid.2906]

Anet never supported defenders in WvW. The devs playing the game always run with the blobs, never seen any roaming or repairing/sieging forts. Since the game started whenever defenders figured how to stop flips anet put a stop to it. As far as blobs getting bored that won't happen. I went thru too many matches where commanders and guilds steamrolled maps constantly because of no resistance, and they acted like they were Godly Legends. Honestly, the mental gymnastics they go thru to justify the changes are akin to meth heads denying being addicts

[One more for the road.8950]

2 hours ago, Bunny.9834 said:

Which apparently they're not using cause I keep seeing them in BL south camps doing their GvG battles. 

But that's not actual GvG. It's open field if they don't hit objectives. It's OF with and against guild groups, blobs, any type of squad, there's chances for interference. And it's OF fights that's agreed upon with a few rounds, they are doing it to not disturb others while they're doing it (like in a frickin keep), and it's usually done on the third enemy's BL. Often you'll find it's open tags either on a server discord or a guild discord containing a lot of different types of players, but they're all voice. They're not using any actual GvG rules other than agreeing on time on the counter for when to clash. AFTER the agreed upon rounds or time, or it's obvious that one is wiping the other every time, or they lose numbers or something else, they go back to regular WvW. Either on that map or move maps.

---

I don't get why people aren't happy about this. It's better they do this as open field battles rather than in your keep, no? If they just want the kills or action, they'll hit your objectives or do the thing where you end with a three way from an enemy spawn, bay or hills and the third coming from south camp. IF you are in a MU with three servers that can actually cough up players. If they do it on the "battlefield" at south camp, they're trying to learn things, learn new people how to play, new commanders are learning to lead, getting their skills up, figure out new builds, having fun figuring out what they can do with the game play or build. And when there's a huge difference in server population and coverage in the MU it might the best content they can get for a little while other than just getting wiped or wiping over and over. These are people, that like you, want their pips and participation (which you don't get in the arena, OS or EotM).

I play all types of WvW. I like solo, I like small, I like zerg, I like chatmanders, I like voice tags, I like BvB, GvG, PPT, fights, defending, attacking, roaming, back capping, I like to play meta and I like to cook up weird builds to try out. I like highly organized, I like casual, I like complete confusion, I like drunk raids, I like messing around with friends, I like dancing in front of enemies and have them dance back. I play in prime time, off peak, and in the middle of the night or early morning, depending on my current work schedule. I am just trying to point out there are different types of game play and they're all valid and fun, and people seem to be too stuck with their nose up into whatever they favor. Servers are enemies on the battlefield, but it doesn't mean they're also not friends that can have fun together, like agreeing on open field fights. I can't get my head around not being fine with others wanting to get better and become better players or enjoying whatever THEY find fun.

The reason 20-30 people could fort farm for hours with several times the number against them BEFORE this patch is obviously, I won't just call it a skill issue as it's also about population, coverage, commanders, what players you have available, pool of veterans or fighters, organization, etc, but a difference. Fixing that difference is not done by denying others to get better, throw derogatory names or in general kitten talk certain groups of players, game styles or ways to play. Polarization doesn't help anyone. And clearly people here keeps confusing the terms and what the different types of players are and do, and what actually benefits them. Maybe because they don't play that way themselves so they have no idea, but come on, not wanting or knowing to play like that doesn't need to mean refusing to understand. A "healthy" server has a bit of everything. Anet wants these changes to benefit fights, but all I see is a shift towards PPT and ktrain. As it's been pointed out so many times now, if you have someone rolling around in your keep, it's because it's the only content they could get. Knocking on main keep or garri if not finding anything else to hone your weapons properly on have been a way to get enemies gathered to fight for years. But then the main goal isn't to cap that keep, it's to find content. And with more and more MUs where the discrepancy gets larger and larger between the servers, population and coverage, this is not a change that benefits the game mode. And when players can't even get things back, they log out. This is not changes asked for by a small group of veteran boon ballers to farm newbies, pugs, randoms, casual and/or disorganized players, get your head out of your kitten and stop blaming whoever you first could pick out of the air of who you dislike playing against. Lack of content is lack of content. For everyone. Including those you don't like. On all sides. Say whatever on build balance and shifting metas, but this is not about that. It's about the game mode as a whole. There's been a lot of dumbing down in WvW lately, A LOT, and now it's starting to go too far.

But then again, this is the forums. Where defending is "winning" instead of "successfully defend" and the defenders decide where, when and how the attackers attack. So yeah, maybe I am asking too much.

Edited April 21 by One more for the road.8950

[Cuks.8241]

14 hours ago, Cael.3960 said:

I've seen 30-man groups annihilate 60+ with virtually no losses. That disparity of skill, leadership and coordination has a far more significant impact than simple numbers. 

But clearly players with zero inclination towards improvement or collaboration with their server mates deserve a way to win against something that takes months or even years to build. For all the complaints about 'easymode' blobs, you sure you aren't asking for the exact same thing for anti-social solos?

This forums just complains anyway. You have a topic that complains about the current meta while I am sure 90% of posters have no clue what the meta actually is. Maybe one poster of them all that actually described the current dynamics of fight. Everyone else is just boons, boons, boons, strips, strips, strips, qq qq qq.

And yeah you can destroy 50 people with 25 if 25 is better. And that happens everyday. There are big discrepancies within organised groups / guilds. The best guilds will farm mid tier guild all day along with much smaller numbers and mid tiers will do it to low tiers. But most players think they should be able to actually win without putting any effort in organisation and comp at all. Probably just by solo spamming aoe skills into a squad from a 1200 range. 

[anakiCZ.4607]

3 hours ago, Dark Dvid.2906 said:

The devs playing the game always run with the blobs, never seen any roaming or repairing/sieging forts.

I would like to defend the devs in that regard. 
I was a witness to a roaming dev, it was on DBL, and they weren't just running back to tag as there was no tag at that time. We met on top of fire keep, where I was just peacefuly running to cap mid shrine to safe my participation, when I was sudenly attacked by a person with Anet mark. I was shamefully defeated, but it was a fierce fight which I remember vividly till this day. They also caped the shrine afterwards so I believe, we can qualify their actions as roaming. It was about 2-3 years ago. I first entered wvw during 2014 wvw tournament.

So with that I once again tell you, that your statement if taken literary is not true!

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 4/19/2024 at 4:44 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Hear you there. I go round and round. We want changes but when they lean towards one degree versus the other the questions raise. The key is for the side that the changes don't favor, we need to adapt and adjust and come back after to apply the WTWs after we can change tactics. Losing stuff makes me grumpy. It also makes me teach players more Havoc tactics so they can still fight outnumbered since I already did that in the tourney days. So we adapt. In the end this just might create stronger roamers and havocs to counter the zerg play. Course, I might be mental.

[deleted]

Edited April 22 by Thron Stal.9367

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, Bunny.9834 said:

Which apparently they're not using cause I keep seeing them in BL south camps doing their GvG battles. 

I thought you wrote that devs were catering to the GvG boonballs' playstyle, but there are no walls or capture rings on zerg island where you keep seeing them.  Why aren't the GvG boonballs playing how devs intended?  Maybe the changes weren't for them after all?

Edited April 21 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

6 hours ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

It's better they do this as open field battles rather than in your keep, no?

If a defender is calling in map chat for their zerg to come defend, but it's busy doing this RvR stuff, I can see how they'd get upset about it not being better.

Buuuuutttt, I'm beginning to think that there's an unhealthy love/hate relationship.  They love their own fights guilds when they win.  They hate their own fights guilds when they lose.  They only come to the forum to complain about how they can't win without their fights guilds (and ask for buffs to fighting outnumbered) or when those guilds don't show up to defend.  You don't see them posting much excitement about having a fights guild or boonball on their side even though it's often a necessary component to "standard WvW".

There's some irony in wanting certain defense nerfs undone, nerfs that effectively delayed the attackers longer.  Delay for whom exactly?  The delay is to give defenders more time for their own boonball (or boon cloud) to show up of course.

 

Edited April 21 by Chaba.5410

[Cael.3960]

8 hours ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

Skill and leadership have an impact, sure. As do numbers. But the impact of ALL of those things is way less than the one ANET god of composition.

You get a skilled, well led group of 50 with a composition of random classes and specs and put it up against a poorly led, less skilled group of 30 with a perfect meta composition and there is only going to be one outcome. And it will be the same fight after fight after fight.

ANET have decided that their boonball can only be challenged by another boonball that's equally well composed. Only when the compositions are both equally good will skill, tactics and numbers start to have an impact on the result. In the meantime, anyone that doesn't want to play boonball is just food for the boonball.

I've logged out of WvW for the week after getting wood on Friday. Because WSR isn't fun to play, and facing a massive boonball on every map that we now have zero chance to stop is just painful. If this is what ANET want WvW to be, then I just won't be playing it. I suspect I won't be alone.

That's right, skill is a bigger advantage than numbers. Skill is built upon knowledge of the game, personal ability, and the situational awareness required to think critically and create effective strategies. 

That's why there's a difference between a squad composed mostly of guild members and an open tag filled with whatever is on the map. Guilds by their very nature imply a higher degree of coordination and leadership. Casual players who don't possess these qualities benefit from having it on loan from someone who does, that's why you see them join squads. It's also why many guild groups run invisible or with a closed tag, they know casual players expect to be carried by them and don't want that weakness introduced into their comp. Guilds cultivate skill because it synergizes well with organization and coordination. A highly skilled group is a requirement for virtually every difficult aspect of the game, in all three game modes. 

But a blob is a blob to people who don't know any better and can't be bothered to understand the difference. And because numbers mean boonball and nothing else, boonballs/boonblobs are the defacto title for any half-squad or larger that disorganized or unskilled pugs can't PvE a win over. 

Anet isn't responsible for some MMO players wanting to play in groups while others want to play alone. How anyone can think a game company "forces" social interaction in a social gaming experience makes no sense to me. It's like going to a music festival and getting upset about the fact that people want to dance with each other. If you want to dance alone that's your business; but plenty of people are there for the experience of dancing together and it's unreasonable to get angry at them (and the festival) for letting them do it.

Large groups can be challenged by smaller groups and stymied by the efforts of just a couple people. It takes more skill and effort to do this, but it's still done regularly enough that it makes a difference. And those who are particularly good at it are well known on their servers for this reason. 

Getting mad because your server can't field enough numbers or skill to counter another server's numbers or skill is justified, but it's also a choice. It sucks but when people have the ability to band together to achieve mutual success it makes perfect sense for them to do so. Society does this all the time, it's why cities are a thing. It's normal for people to come together to do something greater than what they can achieve on their own and in a social game it should be expected that they will also do this. In a competitive setting it makes even more sense, which is why you see people transferring to full servers whenever they open. It's also why we have ques, to help prevent the bandwagonning of everyone onto a single stacked server. 

Recognize that you're putting a handicap on yourself and then demanding the game devs balance around it. They're not pushing everyone toward boonballs/boonblobs, people are doing that all on their own without their help. You're angry because you don't want to be a part of something other people enjoy and because it's a competitive scene and your choice is less successful than theirs, it's making you frustrated. There are strategies to beat bigger numbers, you just need to try them and find one that works for you. Grow as a player and learn to use what skills you have to have the greatest effect, everyone will respect you more for putting in the effort rather than demanding someone else do it for you. 

Edited April 21 by Cael.3960

[Cael.3960]

7 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

There's some irony in wanting certain defense nerfs undone, nerfs that effectively delayed the attackers longer.  Delay for whom exactly?  The delay is to give defenders more time for their own boonball to show up of course.

 

That's an excellent point, and something which really should be made more visible so people are aware of it. 

[Zok.4956]

10 hours ago, prototypedragon.1406 said:

They'll go for the emergency waypoints next.🤡 If a tower or keep is entered by a opposing team and the objective has that tactic equipped it shall then be ( updated)changed when  the tactics are  pulled by that team then an opposing team can use that Emergency waypoint. No more need for siege or the walls or mounts. Just think of the savings of gold.

There is already a discussion about EWPs. You might want to check out the following thread. There are some innovative ideas that Anet may also implement.

 

 

[Zok.4956]

On 4/19/2024 at 8:08 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Despite all the random changes in this patch, the invisible cornerstone on DBL garri remains bugged and broken after 8+ years.

At least it's not an angry rock CCing you (in trib mode).

[Kranlor Greyhelm.8417]

4 hours ago, Cael.3960 said:

You're angry because you don't want to be a part of something other people enjoy and because it's a competitive scene and your choice is less successful than theirs, it's making you frustrated.

I'm angry because ANET have decided that there is a "right" way to play WvW and are nerfing anything that might oppose it. Just because you are happy with that way of playing doesn't mean it doesn't cause a problem weighting a competitive game towards one way of playing with no alternative counter.

But don't worry, if it stays like this you'll get your wish and it will only be large organised "skillful" groups left. Because the rest of us would have left, as ANET apparently wants. Then you can have fun playing "hunt the opponent" when you suddenly realise there aren't as many people happy to play your way as you thought there were.

[Junkpile.7439]

It's kind of funny how boon blobs are mad because they can't get much kills and new players probably quit because they are like only ones that get killed every time. Boon blob running circles inside inner keep while we 5 vs 1 invaders in outer gate.

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 4/19/2024 at 5:35 PM, joneirikb.7506 said:

This is a very interesting point, because I've seen it done before. And the result was that the company thought no one cared/played the game any-longer, and just shut it down, and replaced it with a new game. So it's very much a possibility that if people just stop playing WvW, they'd just shut it down, because well no one is playing it. They'd finally have the excuse they needed to just turn off WvW entirely, and put GoB in a pvp track or something.

That is exactly what happened to Everquest and the person that complained (and wasn't) listened to, went and helped them develop WoW and still has many players. Unfortunately WoW never had a good WvW and it's being ruined IMHO.  Many people don't PVE at all and only WvW or PvP.

Edited April 22 by Thron Stal.9367

[XenesisII.1540]

6 hours ago, Thron Stal.9367 said:

That is exactly what happened to Everquest and the person that complained (and wasn't) listened to, went and helped them develop WoW and still has many players. Unfortunately WoW never had a good WvW and it's being ruined IMHO.  Many people don't PVE at all and only WvW or PvP.

Technically he moved his entire top raiding guild over to WoW after being impressed with the alpha/beta, at the time soe was putting out buggy content you couldn't even clear. Blizzard did eventually hire some of the guild leaders as devs. EQ1 and 2 still live on to this day though, still releasing an expansion every year. Anet hired a player too.... I'd say it isn't working out too well for wvw either...

[Eudaimonia.8695]

When are you gonna remove this kitten mount and gliding? 

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Eudaimonia.8695 said:

When are you gonna remove this kitten mount and gliding? 

You can go ahead and still walk everywhere if you want to.

You really trying to make the rest of us walk around everywhere because you think all those lost kills would have been yours if it weren't for those mounts and gliders? WvW maps don't have anything in them. You're not missing anything 

[DivineDreaming.7206]

On 4/22/2024 at 1:17 AM, Thron Stal.9367 said:

That is exactly what happened to Everquest and the person that complained (and wasn't) listened to, went and helped them develop WoW and still has many players. Unfortunately WoW never had a good WvW and it's being ruined IMHO.  Many people don't PVE at all and only WvW or PvP.

wow never had good pvp to start with. 2004-2009 open world pvp and arenas were decent, but current 2024 retail wow is a 100% pve game, all about dailies/mythic+ Classic wow community also hate pvp, just a pve game. They never even had a traditional RVR mode in the game.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 4/21/2024 at 8:45 AM, Cael.3960 said:

Anet isn't responsible for some MMO players wanting to play in groups while others want to play alone. How anyone can think a game company "forces" social interaction in a social gaming experience makes no sense to me. It's like going to a music festival and getting upset about the fact that people want to dance with each other. If you want to dance alone that's your business; but plenty of people are there for the experience of dancing together and it's unreasonable to get angry at them (and the festival) for letting them do it.

Except in this case, the festival is doing more than passively letting people choose to dance alone or together.  They're giving big groups free drinks and backstage passes while simultaneously kneecapping solos.

Skill, communication, organization, and numbers are advantages unto themselves.  Groups with these advantages don't need the scale tipped even more in their favor, to the detriment of all other playstyles.

[Junkpile.7439]

So what's up with this moronic door repair change? Small group can't never fix a door and blob server noobs just run back whole time. It's like they don't have any idea what they doing.

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

Hey everyone, I want to let you know that several of us have been following and discussing this thread for the past week. The team is reviewing the full conversation as well as some smaller, more specific details, so they'll probably be hopping into this thread to ask for clarification from some of you on various details. 

[Entara.3075]

Based upon my limited observations and map chat this past week it appear to me that WvW defence is dead. The eternally bugged defence credit combined with the latest changes seems to have killed it. People are generally no longer responding to defence events beyond checking to see if that is where the enemy boon ball is.

The only major exception I have noticed is MAG and their strange infatuation with SMC where they will defend to the last man standing. However only 3 MAG responded to their T3 garrison getting attacked at roughly the same time.

Back capping now appears to be the new norm.

Again all of this is based upon MY observations of the change that has recently occurred. I am sure others on other servers and time zones have seen different effects.

[XenesisII.1540]

24 minutes ago, Entara.3075 said:

Based upon my limited observations and map chat this past week it appear to me that WvW defence is dead. The eternally bugged defence credit combined with the latest changes seems to have killed it. People are generally no longer responding to defence events beyond checking to see if that is where the enemy boon ball is.

The only major exception I have noticed is MAG and their strange infatuation with SMC where they will defend to the last man standing. However only 3 MAG responded to their T3 garrison getting attacked at roughly the same time.

Back capping now appears to be the new norm.

Again all of this is based upon MY observations of the change that has recently occurred. I am sure others on other servers and time zones have seen different effects.

Every server is going to be different, but mag is known to not bother defending their homeland(their link might) and only ebg especially smc, not sure we could include them in any case studies other than spawn camping and cloud fights. 🤭 Plus this week is relinks so most are not going to take it as seriously and look for fights.

I've mostly seen the usual things, big balls farm small balls, usual keep farms, and the ring not really encouraging more fights in them, maybe even less now.

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

So what's up with this moronic door repair change? Small group can't never fix a door and blob server noobs just run back whole time. It's like they don't have any idea what they doing.

It's going to have to become server culture or norm for a group to squad size repair session after every attack instead of one or two people maybe finishing it if a commander doesn't get their squad to bring it to 100% before they leave. Two nights ago another server punched through past inner keep and we defended and cleared it out. We didn't have an entire squad repairing but we did have maybe four or five doing multiple supply runs with some others dropping what they had on their way out but those Fortified walls are dense.

The other server had enough time to run back, zoom past everyone repairing the wall, and only had a sliver of inner gate to punch through and we had to fight on and around lord again. I'm not sure if I'm for or against that change yet. I like the idea of teams having to get more hands on the work but I'm not sure if any server can routinely get those upgraded walls repaired. Have to remember there's normally so few repairing because people want to get back into the action or not get left behind to run across a map by themselves. 

If servers don't mold a repair culture to get those back up quickly and routinely so a few people don't turn into work horses, then I can see them not getting repaired at all routinely promoting the backcapping game more. 

[XenesisII.1540]

It was a semi good idea to encourage zergs to now also repair if they want the objective closed. On the flip side the attackers get an opportunity to just walk back in with no effort, after the defenders already put in the effort to drive them out in the first place, and also had to work on repairs in the meantime. Maybe this change would have been fine before the supply changes they made. I just don't agree giving attackers a free pass after they were driven off.