Spears and Mesmers

[Artyport.2084]

On 6/6/2024 at 7:01 PM, Artyport.2084 said:

Melee weapon with a dancer like aesthetic 

has a new take on previous skill type (phantasm) 

phantasm dances with you (copies your spear skills) based off how many clones or blades you shatter 
power with boon support

I WON!

[AshkyLicious.4729]

I cant be happier with our spear! It actually looks great, and it really looks like a Mirage weapon for once which is a breath of fresh air for us!

Every skill and their visual style and animations looks so great. I was worried about skill 2 aswell, but I think its more about finding the rythm in the rotation. Once you've done that, your Mesmer will get quite dangerous to face in battle. And the ambush on Mirage is something I def like alot! It has a small AoE, but with 3 clones up at the sametime.... it'll get sick.

Cant wait til we can try it out for ourselves on the beta next week!

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

there is some hope, after all, axe was updated to interact with the blade mechanic. skills 2 grants a blade if you hit an enemy, and skill 3 benefits from stocked blades despite being a melee condition weapon. even sword 3 stocks a blade if you hit your target, though all sword skills do not have the blade tooltip, let alone interact with the blade mechanic. we'll see on the 27th!

I think you've misunderstood what people are talking about - which is understandable, since it IS a bit confusing. People aren't talking about being able to stock blades for use with the shatter mechanic - anything that causes a clone to appear on a non-Virt mesmer will stack a blade.

What people are talking about is how certain skills are treated as blades for the purpose of triggering traits, most notably Jagged Mind. The trend is that any skill that involves throwing or generating an energy blade at a distance counts - that's dagger attacks, most virtuoso shatters (obviously) and utilities, and greatsword skills 2-4 (in the case of Phantasmal Berserker, it's the projectile that you throw that counts, not anything the phantasms do, IIRC). Weapons that involve hitting the enemy with a physical blade - sword, axe, and apparently spear - however, do not. This means that condivirt is probably going to remain dagger/X and dagger/Y for the foreseeable future, since Jagged Mind is basically the reason condivirt exists.

[zealex.9410]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think you've misunderstood what people are talking about - which is understandable, since it IS a bit confusing. People aren't talking about being able to stock blades for use with the shatter mechanic - anything that causes a clone to appear on a non-Virt mesmer will stack a blade.

What people are talking about is how certain skills are treated as blades for the purpose of triggering traits, most notably Jagged Mind. The trend is that any skill that involves throwing or generating an energy blade at a distance counts - that's dagger attacks, most virtuoso shatters (obviously) and utilities, and greatsword skills 2-4 (in the case of Phantasmal Berserker, it's the projectile that you throw that counts, not anything the phantasms do, IIRC). Weapons that involve hitting the enemy with a physical blade - sword, axe, and apparently spear - however, do not. This means that condivirt is probably going to remain dagger/X and dagger/Y for the foreseeable future, since Jagged Mind is basically the reason condivirt exists.

Honestly the last thing cvirt needs is another buff. 

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

That Mirage +15% damage bonus seems interesting, and the fact that you can spam Ambushes to keep it up permanently seems even more interesting. And that Ambush is perfect for keeping Fencer's Finesse up too. Really seems like a proper PvE power Mirage build is very possible with Spear.

And if they make Spear skills Blade for Virt, I'll need a petition for MH Sword to also count as Blade.

[Teknomancer.4895]

10 hours ago, Mangoyami.2418 said:

seeing MTG in stream alleviates some of my fears. with the inner/outer circle explanation. Doesn't mean i have to clip an enemy with the outermost (250-300 range) of the skill. 300 range means outer ring is what, 150 of that range? its not terrible. Still kind of a pain compared to like.. guardian..

It looked like about the same general radius as Bladeturn Requiem or Psychic Force. It shouldn't be hard to get used to.

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Honestly the last thing cvirt needs is another buff. 

I'm not sure how you think Spear would be a buff to it considering it doesn't hit as fast as dagger.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

11 hours ago, Mangoyami.2418 said:

seeing MTG in stream alleviates some of my fears. with the inner/outer circle explanation. Doesn't mean i have to clip an enemy with the outermost (250-300 range) of the skill. 300 range means outer ring is what, 150 of that range? its not terrible. Still kind of a pain compared to like.. guardian..

If you compare yourself to Guardian you're only setting yourself up for failure.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

Double post......for luck!

Edited Saturday at 02:57 PM by ShadowKatt.6740

[mirage.8046]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think you've misunderstood what people are talking about - which is understandable, since it IS a bit confusing. People aren't talking about being able to stock blades for use with the shatter mechanic - anything that causes a clone to appear on a non-Virt mesmer will stack a blade.

What people are talking about is how certain skills are treated as blades for the purpose of triggering traits, most notably Jagged Mind. The trend is that any skill that involves throwing or generating an energy blade at a distance counts - that's dagger attacks, most virtuoso shatters (obviously) and utilities, and greatsword skills 2-4 (in the case of Phantasmal Berserker, it's the projectile that you throw that counts, not anything the phantasms do, IIRC). Weapons that involve hitting the enemy with a physical blade - sword, axe, and apparently spear - however, do not. This means that condivirt is probably going to remain dagger/X and dagger/Y for the foreseeable future, since Jagged Mind is basically the reason condivirt exists.

if spear skills even count as blades, it'd be a win of course. not only about counting as blades to trigger traits, but condi virt also cares about fast-hitting attacks and multi-hitting attacks. this is why condi virt sticks with dagger, focus, and off-hand sword because they're the best at proccing jagged mind and other traits and quickly hit; pistol does get used instead if focus 5 is hitting random enemies but not the boss. those 3 weapons are non-negotiable in general. spear on power virtuoso should be fun though.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Skill 1 -130 range

Skill 2 - 300 range 

Skill 3 - 130 range

Skill 4 - 450 range dash

Skill 5 - 600 range teleport

Skill 2 must be hit by the outer aoe to proc clarity, because they expect people to backpedal for whatever reason.

Edited Saturday at 06:18 PM by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Mangoyami.2418]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Skill 2 must be hit by the outer aoe to proc clarity, because they expect people to backpedal for whatever reason

We'll see how it goes in beta really. there's plenty of time to change based on feedback but of course I know where I am considering the last mesmer feedback threads

[glenndevis.8327]

Quite pleased with how spear looks. But as always i'm a bit worried as with most new toys mesmer gets about how effective it's gnna be. They're always trying quite unique things with mesmer that ends up being not as useful or clunky or weird to use.

But i'm feeling quite positive about it at the first glance. 
I'm glad we finally got a good melee 2handed weapon and one with good cleave as well!
I LOVE the lotus theme. Animations on these skills look great.

Gameplay wise I like the idea of wanting to hit the enemies on the edge to empower the spear skills. I quite like the #3 skill as well having the blur is good. Condi cleanse is okay i guess alltho kinda situational.
Phantasm looks great honestly. I wonder how well the immobilize is gnna combo with chronophantasma. Is it gnna spawn the 2 phantasms twice? It's gnna be great with heal signet and spear #5 resetting #2 as well. That's gnna be pretty good damage.
#5  skill looks pretty cool. I like that it resets the #2 as well. 

I'm abit worried about if it's gnna be any good in PvP.
It SOUNDS good, a condi cleanse, a stun, a blur, some sustain, mobility, probably pretty good damage? But it all depends on how easy or hard it's gnna be to land the outer edge of the #2 skill on moving opponents.
I'm generally not a fan if strong utilities like condi cleanse or CC are tied to a rather hard to access mechanic.
Then there's also the worry of #5 looking kinda slow so prob quite easy to dodge as well.

Excited to try it out.

Edited Sunday at 12:38 AM by glenndevis.8327

[ShadowKatt.6740]

30 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Skill 1 -130 range

Skill 2 - 300 range 

Skill 3 - 130 range

Skill 4 - 450 range dash

Skill 5 - 600 range teleport

Skill 2 must be hit by the outer aoe to proc clarity, because they expect people to backpedal for whatever reason.

You know, after 12 years-ish playing the game, that still means nothing to me. What even is range? What is 300 range? What is 1200 range? There's no real measuring stick in the game, I can't really tell just by depth of field. I just press the button and it either works, or it doesn't work. And weapons are either melee, or they're ranged.

Related note, I hate pretty much all elementalist weapons.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

29 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

You know, after 12 years-ish playing the game, that still means nothing to me. What even is range? What is 300 range? What is 1200 range? There's no real measuring stick in the game, I can't really tell just by depth of field. I just press the button and it either works, or it doesn't work. And weapons are either melee, or they're ranged.

Related note, I hate pretty much all elementalist weapons.

I'm not sure what you mean by there is no measuring stick for range. There are some. As a reference, ranges are in inches, so "Range: 300" is 300 inches, or 25 feet. Some skills, like GT skills, have reticules to show ranges before they are casted. You can also tell if a target is in range from the targeting reticule; it changes shape. Other than that, yeah, you just have to feel them out.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

5 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

You know, after 12 years-ish playing the game, that still means nothing to me. What even is range? What is 300 range? What is 1200 range? There's no real measuring stick in the game, I can't really tell just by depth of field. I just press the button and it either works, or it doesn't work. And weapons are either melee, or they're ranged.

Related note, I hate pretty much all elementalist weapons.

You don't have to know what range is.

If you're hitting with skill 1 or skill 3 you might not be hitting with the edge of skill 2 and if you dash with 4 you then have to move away before hitting with 2 which is a counterintuitive mess.

They came up with easy to access empowerment for other professions so there's no reason for this mess.

[draxynnic.3719]

19 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Honestly the last thing cvirt needs is another buff. 

You're not thinking holistically. A large part of what makes cvirt strong is that it's full ranged. If they want to nerf it without taking the riflemech approach and nerfing it so hard it's basically just a training wheels spec, a good starting point for doing so would be to make it take a melee weapon on one of its swaps.

[Cpt Crunch.7058]

On 6/21/2024 at 4:55 PM, Curunen.8729 said:

 

My only real criticism is visual - I don't particularly like floating indicators and the eye for Clarity above the head is a bit... inelegant? Would prefer something like a soft pink glow around the head, something more on the character. But I can live with it.

 

This is my concern too upon seeing the preview. That effect for Clarity may as well be a big red arrow with a sign that reads "This is the mesmer over here!"

Sure there are other effects in the game that can give it away but this one for Clarity is ridiculous, and it's something that will constantly be produced/consumed when using the weapon.

It's way too visible, it needs to be toned down a bunch or replaced with something more fitting like you said.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Cpt Crunch.7058 said:

This is my concern too upon seeing the preview. That effect for Clarity may as well be a big red arrow with a sign that reads "This is the mesmer over here!"

Sure there are other effects in the game that can give it away but this one for Clarity is ridiculous, and it's something that will constantly be produced/consumed when using the weapon.

It's way too visible, it needs to be toned down a bunch or replaced with something more fitting like you said.

I like it. I'll grant you that it's kinda a giant "Kill Me" sign, but then again if they can make the giant Elementalist circles invisible to other people then they can do the same for this too.

And for myself with my sight, I need something like this. if it was just a little glow around your head, I'll never see that. I'll compensate, like I do with everything else, but I'd rather have it as is.

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Cpt Crunch.7058 said:

This is my concern too upon seeing the preview. That effect for Clarity may as well be a big red arrow with a sign that reads "This is the mesmer over here!"

Sure there are other effects in the game that can give it away but this one for Clarity is ridiculous, and it's something that will constantly be produced/consumed when using the weapon.

It's way too visible, it needs to be toned down a bunch or replaced with something more fitting like you said.

That's a valid point, if it's something that enemies can see and it doesn't also pop up over your clones. While it's usually not that hard to pick out the real mesmer, the occasional moment of confusion about where the real mesmer is is supposed to be part of mesmer's survivability in competitive modes, and a marker that immediately identifies the real mesmer compromises that even further.

[Varis.5467]

53 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's a valid point, if it's something that enemies can see and it doesn't also pop up over your clones. While it's usually not that hard to pick out the real mesmer, the occasional moment of confusion about where the real mesmer is is supposed to be part of mesmer's survivability in competitive modes, and a marker that immediately identifies the real mesmer compromises that even further.

This is my first concern walking away from the live stream. 

Did they confirm it is visible for enemy players?

[Gesbo.6420]

Self buff concept:

- have persistence of memory and phantasmal haste

- have illusionary defence and bountiful disillusionment 

- get clarity and cast illusionary lancer

- while flying at your target blow all your shatters (extra points if you are a chronomancer and you do all of this in continum split so you can do it again)

When your phantasms become clones you get double the juicy boons

[st elmos fire.2987]

My concerns with mesmer spear from a PvP point of view. 

It is way too conditional. In pvp conditional stuff is rarely good. It might sound good in paper but just does not work as you would like it to work most of the time and ends up being bad. Things that are consistent always perform better. 

If you dont get clarity from the 2 skill you basically just have 5 very mediocre or even bad pure dps skills and a single 1s evade.

Landing any skill is difficult when there is so much blinds, blocks, stealth, random cc and evades. Because 2 is melee it is even harder to land because kiteing and ranged specs can pressure you freely while doing so. Being melee as a glassy power mesmer is always very risky and dangerous. Before you can land 2 you dont have any cc or stealth on spear to help land 2. On top of ALL this you need to land with the outer edge of the skill. If you manage to finally get the clarity buff you get a single actually good skill that you can use once. Magnificent. After that you need to wait for skill 2 cd before you can even dream of getting another taste of clarity. 

I know that before actually testing spear I cant really know how it will work in practice but I am just a bit worried. 

Soo anet if Im correct maybe consider making skill 2 easier to land. Maybe add more range and widen the edge area that you need to hit with. And buff the other skills while you dont have clarity. Add short daze or evade to 5 and maybe give a blind to 4 or something like that. If the skills would be too powerful after that you could nerf the things that clarity gives. It would help make the skills a bit more consistent. I have not really thoght about fixes. These were just the ones that popped to my mind right now. 

Spear does have alot of good in it and I am excited to play it even tho I sound only negative in this post. 

[Solomons.9713]

Spear is looking promising although I have my concerns about the usability of some skills. Don't worry, I will not talk about skill 2 that much like everyone else has mentioned before but look at the post above mine for a good idea.

So, can we still cast skill 4 and 5 when not in range of the target or will I get amased by how many times my screen gets filled with the error: target not in range

Skill 4 should work only in range of the target imo but skill 5 should be castable from anywhere when having a target, I think you need to have a target according to the tooltip? It would be pog if skill 5 didn't even need a target like Willbender f3 so we can teleport in range for proccing skill 2 clarity easier and blasting fields.

Will the traits that should proc and have cd reduction on spear skills, namely only fencer's finesse in this case and arguably compounding power (or blade skill traits for virtuoso, though it was not mentioned on stream) not work in beta and on release like virtuoso back then?

Getting swiftness on a spear skill would help a lot too for a melee weapon, still tied to 25% movement speed and now on relics is getting boring for us mesmers...

Please look into this before beta, while you're at it also look into clarity icon. If you can make the AoE be less visible for enemies you can do it too for clarity icon, nobody wants to have a visible target above their heads. 

Sorry if this came over negative but I just want an enjoyable beta test for once, (I know this is why we have beta...)not like eod beta please where only half of everything worked 🙂

Edited Monday at 11:47 PM by Solomons.9713

[Mike.7983]

Looking forward to rocking power mirage greatsword + shark legendary spear soon..."Sharks with laser beams" Hehe 🙂