Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?

[Vyseman.2947]

Cele is totally fine.  And nope, its not a "nobrainer"  or  "free win carry"  etc. 

Im Kinda New to WvW.  People told me go play Cele Necro its sooo OOOPPEEE, you cant die with that.. .. okay i did that.  Died way to much.  Changed to Marauder and i was able to nuke peoples before i die easily lol. 

Also on my "Hybrid" Build with Condi and Power damage, im playing with about 4 pieces of Cele, the rest are Grieving and im doing much better than full Cele.

 

On my Support Builds i always play Minstrel, because of that crazy amount of Toughness and Vitality.  So i die less than Cele. 

 

In my Eyes the only  Balance thingy they can do is like PvP with Amulets.  So its also more newb friendly and it doesnt matter anymore if i use my exotic Gear lol.   But i dont think Anet will do that.  Also i highly think the most WvW peoples will crying 24/7 in the Forum and Reddit if they do that haha 

[Arheundel.6451]

Most broken celestial builds in existence are 

1. Cele renegade/Cele vindicator
2. Harbinger

Anything else barely reach the obnoxious level and can be dealt with in due time, by contrast the 2x specs I have mentioned ...they are so busted, it feels like fighting a mini-boss and especially Cele Renegade/Vindicator is openly broken to incredible levels. so much that I see cele renegades tanking whole mini zergs on new players and get few kills on top, while even your above average cele anything else would be overwhelmed after some time or forced to run when it gets more than 1 opponent. Cele renegade/harbinger are mindblowing broken behind any logic

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Vyseman.2947 said:

Im Kinda New to WvW.

And ofc you already know better than much more experienced players ...

[felincyriac.5981]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Most broken celestial builds in existence are 

1. Cele renegade/Cele vindicator
2. Harbinger

Anything else barely reach the obnoxious level and can be dealt with in due time, by contrast the 2x specs I have mentioned ...they are so busted, it feels like fighting a mini-boss and especially Cele Renegade/Vindicator is openly broken to incredible levels. so much that I see cele renegades tanking whole mini zergs on new players and get few kills on top, while even your above average cele anything else would be overwhelmed after some time or forced to run when it gets more than 1 opponent. Cele renegade/harbinger are mindblowing broken behind any logic

my man will have his mind blown vs his first cele cata encounter. Or cele axe thief

Edited June 22 by felincyriac.5981

[Arheundel.6451]

36 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

my man will have his mind blown vs his first cele cata encounter. Or cele axe thief

If you fail even on a cele harbinger.......on a cele harbinger you die to an ele...wow...guess Anet did not lower enough the requirements to play necro, they should just allow a bot to play for necros 

[CafPow.1542]

3 hours ago, Vyseman.2947 said:

Also on my "Hybrid" Build with Condi and Power damage, im playing with about 4 pieces of Cele, the rest are Grieving and im doing much better than full Cele.

That’s because a specialized gear will always perform better in the situation it’s specialized in.

cele is the jack of all trades. This is really neat especially in roaming but you almost never find a cele build in zergs.

also a pure specialized build will always outperform cele in the ine thing it’s specialized.

but can’t argue that 3k power does more damage than 600 Power in this forum.

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And ofc you already know better than much more experienced players ...

Maybe not but he doesn’t instantly jump on the salt-bandwagon „experienced players“ are often enough found on and he’s right to do so.

[igmolicious.5986]

4 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Most broken celestial builds in existence are 

1. Cele renegade/Cele vindicator
2. Harbinger

Anything else barely reach the obnoxious level and can be dealt with in due time, by contrast the 2x specs I have mentioned ...they are so busted, it feels like fighting a mini-boss and especially Cele Renegade/Vindicator is openly broken to incredible levels. so much that I see cele renegades tanking whole mini zergs on new players and get few kills on top, while even your above average cele anything else would be overwhelmed after some time or forced to run when it gets more than 1 opponent. Cele renegade/harbinger are mindblowing broken behind any logic

Agree that both harb and vindi can be tough fights, but both definitely have some exploitable points that make the fights more manageable. For harb, kiting when they fill their buff bar with elixer of ambition (or saving blocks/invulns for this) is usually enough to cut out a big chunk of their burst, and most harbs that I've fought will lead with that to try to win with the initial burst. For vindi running a class with good immob (or stun) output is your best bet (covering conditions helpful as well) since most rely on dodge for cleanse, heal, and damage reduction through evade, and if you stop their ability to dodge, you make them a much easier target. For renegade, the big thing is just bringing cleanse on as short a cd as you can -- they don't put out a big variety of condis but they do stack them quick; alternatively, bringing the fight into the water cripples the damage output for most renegades.

[Nugatory.8920]

3 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

cele is the jack of all trades. This is really neat especially in roaming but you almost never find a cele build in zergs.

There are currently many builds using celestial which are finding their way into zergs. Now that party compositions favour sustain people are realising they don't need to be as tanky individually. It just takes a bit of time for the player base to realise what is currently overpreforming. I wouldn't be surprised if an ideal zerg party in the current meta is actually three out of five players using cele, with the last two being a dedicated healer and damage dealer.

[Codename T.2847]

4 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

If you fail even on a cele harbinger.......on a cele harbinger you die to an ele...wow...guess Anet did not lower enough the requirements to play necro, they should just allow a bot to play for necros 

Idk man, I can eat the average cele Harb for breakfast on my (0 mobility fire/earth) cele signet Cata build, there was even a time, I could never forget, when I fought two of them at the same time and won xD granted, they weren't no Gods of the Arena -but not exactly keyboard turning GoB tourists either- and I was tryharding my kitten off, but the argument that cele harb beats everything with no effort is not really true. 

[schloumou.3982]

6 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And ofc you already know better than much more experienced players ...

Most opinions and reactions in this topic are a fairly adequate representation of skill and game knowledge of the average WvW playerbase tbh. People who are interested in somehow balanced and skill based combat are playing other games. Allmost every change in the past years shows that the devs are very aware of their audience. So i wouldnt get my hopes up of cele getting fixed. Just enjoy, slap cele on the most broken kitten you can build, cosplay as raidboos for 5+ opponents and find out how many reports for cheating you can farm until it gets old.

Edited June 22 by schloumou.3982

[CafPow.1542]

1 hour ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

There are currently many builds using celestial which are finding their way into zergs. Now that party compositions favour sustain people are realising they don't need to be as tanky individually. It just takes a bit of time for the player base to realise what is currently overpreforming. I wouldn't be surprised if an ideal zerg party in the current meta is actually three out of five players using cele, with the last two being a dedicated healer and damage dealer.

But that’s kinda silly.

yeah inexperienced players doing that might be a thing but i mean…

generally you want a stab-bot (fb / mes / whatev) and a healdude with cleanse and 3 dps. Why would you ginp your dps by going cele?

if you want a blob that can’t die and does no damage you can also go full minstrel on everybody…

 

/e as a tempest-enjoyer i run cele and i also do it in zergs but only if i am not in a coordinated grp. If i am i go swap to minstrel cause everything else is just trolling.

what am i gonna do with those 600 additional power in a blob fight?

 

another edit:

on a different note, you never see cele builds in pve aswell (outside of open world solo shenanigans) and there’s a reason to it.

Edited June 22 by CafPow.1542

[Nugatory.8920]

27 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

generally you want a stab-bot (fb / mes / whatev) and a healdude with cleanse and 3 dps.

You seem to be about about three or four steps behind what the stronger zergs have been running lately. Just out of curiosity are you NA or EU? Three dps in a party is only a thing in weaker zergs where players aren't bringing enough of the appropriate classes. We've been in a sustain meta for a while now. Typically, you'll see two dps in a party and then three supports. But it's not uncommon to see only one true dps in a party. With so much sustain it really isn't necessary to be running minstrel on all the supports, unless you are the dedicated healer or can't dodge (and even then celestial should be enough). With so many supports in a party you are just wasting stats by running purely defensive gear. That's why celestial is going to become far more common in zergs.

[CafPow.1542]

49 minutes ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

You seem to be about about three or four steps behind what the stronger zergs have been running lately. Just out of curiosity are you NA or EU? Three dps in a party is only a thing in weaker zergs where players aren't bringing enough of the appropriate classes. We've been in a sustain meta for a while now. Typically, you'll see two dps in a party and then three supports. But it's not uncommon to see only one true dps in a party. With so much sustain it really isn't necessary to be running minstrel on all the supports, unless you are the dedicated healer or can't dodge (and even then celestial should be enough). With so many supports in a party you are just wasting stats by running purely defensive gear. That's why celestial is going to become far more common in zergs.

I am playing on EU. And well, okay. I just have to kinda believe you although it’s hard to get it but… welp. Maybe I’m totally wrong.

i still don’t think that celestial is the big baddie tho (tho it surely is strong especially on some builds, not all)

[One more for the road.8950]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

But that’s kinda silly.

yeah inexperienced players doing that might be a thing but i mean…

generally you want a stab-bot (fb / mes / whatev) and a healdude with cleanse and 3 dps. Why would you ginp your dps by going cele?

if you want a blob that can’t die and does no damage you can also go full minstrel on everybody…

 

/e as a tempest-enjoyer i run cele and i also do it in zergs but only if i am not in a coordinated grp. If i am i go swap to minstrel cause everything else is just trolling.

what am i gonna do with those 600 additional power in a blob fight?

 

another edit:

on a different note, you never see cele builds in pve aswell (outside of open world solo shenanigans) and there’s a reason to it.

The meta has been four supports and one dps even. You're a bit behind.

[CafPow.1542]

10 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

The meta has been four supports and one dps even. You're a bit behind.

Then this changed in the last months. Maybe.

cele-salt threads altho are way older so yeah … my b i guess?

[Junkpile.7439]

Yes celestial gear is ok because celestial double longbow bear bow core ranger isn't that strong.

[Hotride.2187]

On 6/21/2024 at 3:43 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'd say probably 8/10 cele duels I get, definitely end where someone dies after 2-4 minutes.

This is so delusional its actually funny. Where do you duel then? EBG?

[Vyseman.2947]

On 6/22/2024 at 2:44 PM, CafPow.1542 said:

That’s because a specialized gear will always perform better in the situation it’s specialized in.

cele is the jack of all trades. This is really neat especially in roaming but you almost never find a cele build in zergs.

also a pure specialized build will always outperform cele in the ine thing it’s specialized.

but can’t argue that 3k power does more damage than 600 Power in this forum.

 

Maybe its because im coming from PvP and im just used to these burst damage Builds.. i always think  Kill the enemy before he can kill me.. And how am i doing that? Just playing on more damage than him.  And cele damage stats are in my eyes totally bad compared to Marauder/Dragons/Berserker or even Grieving. 

Also i dont copy&paste Builds anymore, i create my own builds and adapt it to my playstile.

 

But yeah.  Cele for me, in my Eyes is bad and any other Condi or Power damage build can outperform it if they know how to play their class and have an eye on Boons and Boonrips lol

[Wolfofdivinity.6251]

On 6/22/2024 at 7:08 AM, felincyriac.5981 said:

my man will have his mind blown vs his first cele cata encounter. Or cele axe thief

My thoughts exactly hahahaha. Cele renegade...OK guy. They are so easy to out kite and kill. Like bro tell me you don't roam without telling me you dont roam....

[suhci.9256]

Celestial is an issue and it does NEED to be removed.  

Celestial is killing WvW both large scale and roaming. i've seen many EU guilds swap their whole roster to Celestial builds making them incredibly tanky and unkillable (ive seen many facetank 50 players and come out on top). Eventually everyone and every guild will swap their gear to Celestial, causing stalemates and generally an unfun WvW experience.
Id like to add; players that are defending Celestials existence in WvW either dont play WvW or they use celestial and dont want to see it removed. 

[Arheundel.6451]

The truth is this thread is nothing more than a whining nerf wish.

There are multiple points to illustrate, all based on simple deductions from reading the various posts here:

1. There are professions with exceptional sustain/mobility/tankiness not related to gear - guardian with willbender and dragonhunter, the latter can be relatively tanky even with full marauder stats, a combination of monk's focus-shield of courage-purification trap-wings of resolve and all willbender dashes; revenant with jumping rabbit vindicator and renegade jalis with pulsing stability or ventari perma reflect; necromancers with 50% dmg reduction shroud or Iwin harbinger elite; thieves with shortbow run away 'catch me if you can' and perma stealth; mesmer with distortion chain/stealth/teleports; warriors with full counter-shield; engineer with perma superspeed, blocks, stealth, elixir S, CC chain
2. The average CD for all defensive mechanics mentioned in point 1 range from 10s to 20s with few exceptions, making it very easy to survive regardless of stats used, not counting that dragon hunter gets +vit for free now and willbender can if treated.
3. Players in WvW or PvP at least are not looking for a competitive environment, the average GW2 player just wants to win no matter what.

All these 'I play marauder/dragon' champs are abusing things like willbender, thief or mesmer...aka they can run miles when their burst screw up and just come back few secs later with teleports while the target recovers high CD defenses. Other 'wannabe pro' are on scrapper/holo or harbinger and similar. Basically they can run 'glass stats' because their defensive kit is busted AF and doesn't need further gera tweaking...they're not pros...far from it very far from it.

All these 'skilled roamers' play the same trash everywhere: willbenders, thieves, mesmers, indicators...none of them...NONE, plays something like glass core warrior, glass core ele. So really all these 'I play dragon gear' can kiss my kitten.

P.S just 2 x examples:

@Wolfofdivinity.6251 ....a mesmer, distortion into stealth, blink, teleport from stealth, macro burst, moa form etc etc etc

@felincyriac.5981....a necro......with pre-Feb 2020 shroud soaking dmg like a mini boss, a GM trait giving 300 ferocity, quickness or some elite giving all boons in aoe range

 

 

Edited June 24 by Arheundel.6451

[Arheundel.6451]

41 minutes ago, Wolfofdivinity.6251 said:

My thoughts exactly hahahaha. Cele renegade...OK guy. They are so easy to out kite and kill. Like bro tell me you don't roam without telling me you dont roam....

Yeah pls tell us on what you roam...no wait no need...know already: you play mesmer....pls tell us more of how great is to kite on mesmer...

Edited June 24 by Arheundel.6451

[CafPow.1542]

Guys stay on topic.

it‘s not about your class my class thisthat.

it‘s about wether or not people like OP should be allowed to delete every face by pressing 2 buttons and not get semi countered by cele so they have to press more than 2 buttons.

[Sereath.1428]

For once I agree with you. @Trevor Boyer.6524
I still consider Celestial stats bad game design, since it has 74% (vs 3 stats) to 59% (vs 4 stats) more stats than any other option.
Still, I find most people not very threatening in their perpetual DPS mobile bunkers. It's just annoying.

But I agree with most of your points, even the comparison between sPvP and WvW in terms of balance.
The "balance" there is trash. Rigid build variety with dull gameplay.
Who ever thought it would be a good idea to remove gear customisation in an MMORPG? When that's about half the fun for many players of the genre.
And all that for what? To achieve an imaginary world esports in which everything is "balanced and equally represented".
kittening impossible, especially since they are balancing around 5? imaginary roles.
That esports garbage ruined sPvP.

Good posts.