Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?

[schloumou.3982]

6 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

The decline of spvp had little to nothing to do with the removal of stats including cele. And that was old cele, mind you (later even a nerfed version compared to what we had in WvW previous). What we have now in WvW never existed in sPvP and if they had brought that superbuffed cele version into spvp that gamemode surely would have died even faster, either because of the worst bunker meta in history (and there have been bad ones already) or because they competely gut all the classes to compensate for those op stats.

And buffing cele certainly hasn't helped WvW either.

Wasn't the whole ESL and Esport desaster in Spvp caused by the bunker meta at that time? Side noders just went vibing and chatting because they knew there was no way to kill each other in the finals. Like pretty simular to the wvw direction atm.

Edit: nevermid, I think it was the season before the Esl one.

Edited July 1 by schloumou.3982

[Silinsar.6298]

On 6/29/2024 at 2:54 AM, schloumou.3982 said:

The concept remains the same. You learn what tools your opponent has and how to respond to them.

That, but your opponent will also notice you adjusting to them and will learn to respond to that. It's one thing to learn how to solve a puzzle or a fight that (if ever) only slightly changes, and another how to effectively approach a dynamic problem-solving challenge competing with another human being.

 

On 6/29/2024 at 2:54 AM, schloumou.3982 said:

Nobody said that. They made mistakes and learned. The skillfull part of your describtion of combat adaptation is finding the openings without making mistakes  that can be exploited yourself. If you need tankier builds to allow for more misplays its ok for the learning process but its less skillfull play.

Again, I don't quite get the notion of "tankier = less skillful", that's why I was addressing it in my posts. In many PvP titles you'll find fast-paced all-in and grindier attrition playstyles, both coming with their unique challenges and aspects of skill expression. There can be (too) strong specs of both kinds, but in a balanced game neither style is more "skillful" by default.

 

On 6/29/2024 at 2:54 AM, schloumou.3982 said:

This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the balance problem in this thread. Something is not balanced because it is just meta and everyone can play it. The problem is that cele gear enables builds that perform on a different level than most other builds and are forcing a meta with less skill based (and even more gear/build dependent) gameplay. The outcome of encounters is more and more decided before they started.

I'm not even saying cele is 100% balanced. But is only part of the problem in some cases, and not the whole problem itself. Imo players just place more blame on cele than it deserves. It can be incredibly strong on some builds, and be BIS for those (and that alone doesn't make it OP, that's the case for other stats as well). On the other hand I run into cele builds that I'd have a much harder time fighting with other stat combinations, because cele can fail to capitalize on moments of vulnerability. There are matchups that show the trade-offs / shortcomings of cele. What weapons, skills and traits are used still play a larger part of builds countering others than stats imo.

 

On 6/29/2024 at 2:54 AM, schloumou.3982 said:

I mean the ranger duel showcased it. Despite Trevors claims his build was not hard countered on a mechanical level. Zyreva had no reflects or even projectile hate, his dmg kit was mostly meele with average mobility at best and was kiteable. He had enough cleans to get rid of condis even after misplays. The thing that countered him was the sustain from cele gear and boons to the point that Zyreva just /sleeped mid fight against a player with 90% zerk gear. 

I'd personally caution to interpret too much into a limited number of fights of a single matchup. For the most part it looked like a case of too little mobility vs. not enough defense / consistent value for an attrition fight. Hence the first couple fights not concluding, as mentioned in my first post. This dynamic isn't exclusive to cele.

I won't deny Zyreva's build having a sustain advantage in this matchup, but what won the fight in the end was the overall better pet usage and CC setups. I also think going with Sic'em is a very niche (and generally not very good) pick for 1v1. It's not just a matter of gear, but also the rest of the builds and how the players play them.

And the /sleep seemed like a taunt, trying to get Trevor to commit to an unsustainable offense / use up one of the utilities. Zyreva also kept the pet attacking / CCing and was ready to react to attacks... Seemed more like unconventional tactics than trying to seriously handicap oneself. Trevor probably wasn't sure if they're supposed to stop fighting seriously (emoting during a duel usually means you want to stop fighting for some reason). Anyway, a weird situation. "Cele is so strong it allows you to /sleep vs. zerk!" reads like a clickbait title, not an argument.

My takeaway from the video is that Trevor doesn't do well with that build vs Zyreva's and theirs (at least not with killing it, imo most of the time that fight would just stall out). That could be notable if you compared a roster of roaming builds and how players of different skill levels do with them against each other. But on it's own it doesn't say much about the state of the game or cele.

[Riba.3271]

Lot of people here seem to be under misconception that you have to play full cele for cele to be busted. I do understand that the confusion since most GW2 builds publicly available are made under misconception that there is "best" stat due to how PvE/PvP builds are made and are running 100% of it, but in reality better WvW builds use combination of 2-3 stats.

You can also opt for 20%, 40%, 60%, etc. cele builds. This way you lot of the benefits of the celestial build without losing most of the burst damage. Equipping couple celestial pieces will provide you insane sustain and let you beat any non-celestial power builds by giving stat advantage and remove that small downtime you have on several boons.

Now. Celestial is busted.  Right now we are living by one simple rule: If you have slightly more cele in your build, you will beat person with otherwise same build.

Edited July 1 by Riba.3271

[One more for the road.8950]

8 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

 Right now we are living by one simple rule: If you have slightly more cele in your build, you will beat person with otherwise same build.

Yes, because skill, seeing tells and being experienced enough to know what's more likely to happen/not happen or what is most efficient against different types of play on same builds adds nothing into the equation.

Pop cele and same build and everyone will be equally good.

/s

[Hotride.2187]

12 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Yes, because skill, seeing tells and being experienced enough to know what's more likely to happen/not happen or what is most efficient against different types of play on same builds adds nothing into the equation.

Pop cele and same build and everyone will be equally good.

/s

This entire thread (and all the other cele threads) assume competent players. No point in discussing what you can do to pve players.

[One more for the road.8950]

5 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

This entire thread (and all the other cele threads) assume competent players. No point in discussing what you can do to pve players.

Oh, I dunno, seeing what some here have said in other threads.

[Hotride.2187]

12 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Wasn't the whole ESL and Esport desaster in Spvp caused by the bunker meta at that time? Side noders just went vibing and chatting because they knew there was no way to kill each other in the finals. Like pretty simular to the wvw direction atm.

Edit: nevermid, I think it was the season before the Esl one.

It is kinda funny, cause even zerg vs zerg has been going in that direction for a while now. Gvg was there like years ago. I remember prior to 2020 entire zergs dropping from a 10 player group stealth bombing, or just failing to dodge a bomb from the enemy zerg and wiping. Last year I was walking through a bomb and got to 20% at best. But oh well. Mode for pve players and all.

[Bunny.9834]

The nerf to strike damage really made Cele the king in WvW. 
Going Berserker doesn't hit as hard anymore as it used too. 

I know they did this to prevent those crazy one shot builds. However they didn't provide compensations for those nerfs.

Add to this, the EOD e-specs (harbinger, willbender, mech) are heavily skewed to benefit the celestial stat. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

On 6/17/2024 at 7:14 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

- Most successful roamers I see are def cele Renegades

Don't worry, Cele Vindicator is still disgusting. I've both used and fought it a lot and it's very good at handling single or group pressure that isn't a thief or mesmer, mainly because those specs have consistent ranged instant cast interrupts. 

You're right in that both it and Renegade are very slow, Renegade more so, but Alliance adds some mobility with Archemorus and a LOT of sustain with Saint Victor. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:54 PM, schloumou.3982 said:

This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the balance problem in this thread. Something is not balanced because it is just meta and everyone can play it. The problem is that cele gear enables builds that perform on a different level than most other builds and are forcing a meta with less skill based (and even more gear/build dependent) gameplay. The outcome of encounters is more and more decided before they started.

I mean the ranger duel showcased it. Despite Trevors claims his build was not hard countered on a mechanical level. Zyreva had no reflects or even projectile hate, his dmg kit was mostly meele with average mobility at best and was kiteable. He had enough cleans to get rid of condis even after misplays. The thing that countered him was the sustain from cele gear and boons to the point that Zyreva just /sleeped mid fight against a player with 90% zerk gear. 

You guys are trying too hard to use the video footage as some kind of definitive argument of cele vs. other stat lines, while completing disregarding the mechanical aspects of the builds in play. I'll say it again, in the event of Condi Ranger vs. Power Ranger, Condi Rangers win. And it aint got nothing to do with cele. It's the way the build archetypes are arranged. Condi Ranger just hard counters Power Rangers. It's as simple as that. He could have been running something like Trailblazer and he'd still be the stronger isolated 1v1 duel build, for sure.

Likewise, if he would have had to go in with that same build structure and fight let's say specifically a Hammer Willbender, the Hammer Willbender would hard counter him with JI bursting into Ring Of Ward. He was on a Ranger build that was slow that had no stability. Anything like a Hammer Willbender or even a DH with pulls & maw, would have locked his build so badly with force effects, he wouldn't be able to move as the guard moved in with front loaded burst while tanking his condi damage & CCs with its stab, and he'd get shut down pretty quickly. Those Guardian builds just wear marauder man, or sometimes serk/valk, stuff like that.

So you see in that event, if I had showed up with my Guardian and ran either Willbender or DH against his build, my archetype would have mechanically countered his, and the footage then could have been said to showcase that "power burst builds counter cele builds with hard CC bursting" but AGAIN, that just isn't true.

What we're really looking at here, is that serk or cele doesn't matter. I've explained in previous pages here that there is roughly 50/50 the use of power builds vs. cele builds right now. What it really amounts down to is class counters, mechanically. This problem being yelped about in this thread isn't really a thing. Any & all complaints are coming from people who don't understand that duel builds are supposed to be good at winning duels, so don't go 1v1 them with your non-dueling builds. And although many 1v1 duel builds are indeed running cele archetypes, they are slow as hell, which makes them bad at actual serious roaming, and they are too designed around selfish sustain & single target skills to be good in zerging.

What I said here is absolutely true. People just have horse-blinds on and aren't looking at the macro design of the full intra-class dynamic. They only look at & remember that one moment when they lost a 1v1 to a cele duel build at a supply camp when they were running something that wasn't a duel build.

The cele duel builds are supposed to be good at 1v1s. That's what they do. It's part of the balance.

Edited July 2 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Zyreva.1078]

On 7/2/2024 at 11:21 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Likewise, if he would have had to go in with that same build structure and fight let's say specifically a Hammer Willbender, the Hammer Willbender would hard counter him with JI bursting into Ring Of Ward. He was on a Ranger build that was slow that had no stability. Anything like a Hammer Willbender or even a DH with pulls & maw, would have locked his build so badly with force effects, he wouldn't be able to move as the guard moved in with front loaded burst while tanking his condi damage & CCs with its stab, and he'd get shut down pretty quickly. Those Guardian builds just wear marauder man, or sometimes serk/valk, stuff like that.

So you see in that event, if I had showed up with my Guardian and ran either Willbender or DH against his build, my archetype would have mechanically countered his, and the footage then could have been said to showcase that "power burst builds counter cele builds with hard CC bursting" but AGAIN, that just isn't true.

You want to try?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 7/1/2024 at 12:02 PM, schloumou.3982 said:

Wasn't the whole ESL and Esport desaster in Spvp caused by the bunker meta at that time? Side noders just went vibing and chatting because they knew there was no way to kill each other in the finals. Like pretty simular to the wvw direction atm.

Edit: nevermid, I think it was the season before the Esl one.

If you ever talked to any of the sponsored players from that era, you'd know it had nothing to do with any of that.

The baseline truth is that GW2 was pulled from ESL when Arenanet themselves decided it was no longer worth the commercial profit to keep it in.

Had absolutely nothing to do with anything else other than that.

They were only ever in the ESL to begin with as a way to commercialize the game when it was new.

On 7/4/2024 at 10:47 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

You want to try?

Yeah, I'll try to catch you tomorrow. I'm testing some stuff tonight in other places.

Edited July 6 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[schloumou.3982]

37 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The baseline truth is that GW2 was pulled from ESL when Arenanet themselves decided it was no longer worth the commercial profit to keep it in.

I don't want to sound condescending or something but this is the most redundant analysis i ever read.

[Mystiz.8795]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:02 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yes but we ARE talking about a situation that has to choose to between fixed stat-blocks. This is the reality of it. Due to this fact, Celestial can never deal as much damage as Berserker, and the Berserker damage ramping at the end of its equation is tagging waaaay larger whole number gains than the Cele ever could, because of how math works.

All I'm talking about right now is the math behind it. The posted video was demonstrating a visual confirmation of the damage ramping of berserker. What you seen there was a 9 second kill on a CM boss that has somewhere near 8 million health. Really let that sink in, think about it for a minute.

You're missing the point bud. The point is that I can oneshot your cele build in wvw with something like a Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast wearing berserker.

 

I mean where does the complaint turn to after you show up to a duel session and someone schools all your cele builds with some highly mobile berserker builds? I'm home and I have time today and I can record some easy footage in the armistice bastion, if you want to show me how overpowered cele is. I can run any class you want against it, while wearing berserker.

I'm actually being serious for the sake of constructive feedback for this thread. I think most of you here complaining about cele are seriously not understanding the skill ceiling that full DPS builds have.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 You said here you can one shot Zyreva's cele build, that you can school his cele builds. It seems clear enough that you are suggesting you can beat his cele build with your berserker soulbeast one. Then you lost, and now switch your claim to 'I wasn't on a dueling build, I could disengage anytime I want, thus I have proved my point'. Few points that I can think about here.

• Zyreva wasn't even on a much stronger spec like druid, he was on core ranger. He didn't even take food and util, unlike you. He was on mainly exotic gear. Even so, the fight wasn't even close, his cele build and perhaps skill level is far superior than yours.  Now imagine if he was on his usual druid build, with food/util and full ascended gear.
• I highly doubt that you stuck to your build because you wanted to prove the point that you could disengage any time. It seems more that you truly believed you could beat him. Even if you really wanted to prove that your build has more disengage potential, can I ask then, is that the point of roaming? To be able to always disengage, but not beat anything except new players, people with lousier builds, and people who are caught off guard by sic em + owp? If your definition of successful roaming is to be able to disengage, then just play full minstrel or something, and build for high mobility and lots of stealth. Nothing can catch you, but you will not be able to beat anything either. 
• I run a build similar to Zyreva's, and it is so much more rewarding because I win 1v2s very often, and sometimes 1v3s. Who would survive better when ambushed by more enemies? Perhaps you, but so what? You can disengage better, but you'll lose most fights against competent players. Does that feel good? I take pride in winning fights, but I guess some people take pride in being able to run away.
• I saw on another of your posts that you mentioned deadeye is weak, and then your build can counter/beat all thieves build. That was the deal sealer for me. Either you for some reason have never met a good thief that doesn't get bursted down by sic em + owp, or you clearly don't know what you are talking about. 
• You claim to be able to beat Zyreva with hammer willbender, please do so. I genuinely would like to see it.

For anyone else curious about this whole debate regarding cele, it is very simple. There are people suggesting power is stronger, people suggesting they can mix other stats to come up with something similar to full cele, try it then. Try a power build, try mixing stats, then try cele. Try each for a few days, and experience it for yourselves. A man with a argument is never at the mercy of a man with experience.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Mystiz.8795 said:

• Zyreva wasn't even on a much stronger spec like druid, he was on core ranger. He didn't even take food and util, unlike you. He was on mainly exotic gear. Even so, the fight wasn't even close, his cele build and perhaps skill level is far superior than yours.

I've known Trevor since forever from dueling arenas. If you've been around long enough in the pvp scene, you'd know this is just a disingenuous statement.

PS: Not saying Zyreva is bad btw...i don't know them (name sounds familiar though.) I'd say if they did fight and if he is good, then they would be close in skill space probably

Edited July 7 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zekent.3652]

Because they don't care about roamming balance, they pretend zergs is all WvW has.

[Zyreva.1078]

On 7/7/2024 at 2:49 AM, Mystiz.8795 said:

You claim to be able to beat Zyreva with hammer willbender, please do so. I genuinely would like to see it.

He already tried - and lost.

[Mystiz.8795]

11 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

He already tried - and lost.

Har I'm not surprised. If you don't mind me asking, my druid currently is struggling the most against cele harbis, and good axe thieves/deadeyes, do you have similar issues? How do you deal with these? 

[bq pd.2148]

5 hours ago, Mystiz.8795 said:

Har I'm not surprised. If you don't mind me asking, my druid currently is struggling the most against cele harbis, and good axe thieves/deadeyes, do you have similar issues? How do you deal with these? 

from side of thief, i can't remember last time a druid was any struggle.
because thief can easily build for a ton of cleanse, the condi part of your damage is almost useless, unless it was something like a confusion burst. that is in general, against ranger a core thief/daredevil also gets a stolen skill which pulsates cleanse and is a water field so even harder to get anywhere with condi.
technically immob could be a weakness, but a good one would be prepared to deal with that - deadeye fairly certain still has an immob cleanse that it should no longer have, at least last i tested.


i would say power untamed has best chance against axe thief/deadeye, run a turtle for high projectile denial uptime from turtle + unleashed skill. 
keeping up protection outside of that should help against deadeye. axe thief can afford to use rending shade so the protection would just go to the thief and make them harder to kill (if they do run that over shadow rejuvenation as axes can give up to +4 ini from stealth attack).

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 7/6/2024 at 11:20 PM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I've known Trevor since forever from dueling arenas. If you've been around long enough in the pvp scene, you'd know this is just a disingenuous statement.

This discussion veered sharply away from "cele vs power" and into "let's make trev look bad". They're just looking for reasons to dump on people.

Now I wasn't going to do this, but since they don't want to stop, I thought everyone should see what I noticed before they continue on with their responses.

You've always been a very logic based numbers kind of guy. You should be able to appreciate this.

 

[bq pd.2148]

47 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

This discussion veered sharply away from "cele vs power" and into "let's make trev look bad". They're just looking for reasons to dump on people.

Now I wasn't going to do this, but since they don't want to stop, I thought everyone should see what I noticed before they continue on with their responses.

You've always been a very logic based numbers kind of guy. You should be able to appreciate this.

while i only watched about 80% of it, did you see that he was running and account for evasive purity? for i didn't hear you mention it once and it would explain pretty much everything i have seen up to the point i got bored of the vid.

[schloumou.3982]

6 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

while i only watched about 80% of it, did you see that he was running and account for evasive purity? for i didn't hear you mention it once and it would explain pretty much everything i have seen up to the point i got bored of the vid.

Yeah or Relic of Nayos that does the same.

[bq pd.2148]

11 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Yeah or Relic of Nayos that does the same.

well that is on any cleanse, but they did cleanse blind with a dodge and then the cripple shortly before it would have expired, the end of where trever stopped with 50% hp is the beginning of another dodge. thats why i figured the trait was in play.

but i was confused about the dwayna part, that rune give regen duration not intensity. the relic is for intensity 20% but then that would not apply to rugged growth but he calculated it over the 705 which did include rugged growth.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

while i only watched about 80% of it, did you see that he was running and account for evasive purity? for i didn't hear you mention it once and it would explain pretty much everything i have seen up to the point i got bored of the vid.

He definitely has evasive purity. So let's consider what you're saying here.

Go to the footage starting at 11:40. He dodge rolls once at 41% health and goes to 44%. This is 3% gain when his health ticks at 1% are worth 209. This would be a +627 heal from evasive purity. I'm standing in game right now looking at evasive purity on my full ascended minstrel druid support that has double his heal stat, and with a 1300 heal stat, it only heals 480 on a cleanse on dodge. That doesn't make sense.

Furthermore, the time it takes for that to happen, you can see the timer in Filmora has gone from 1:15 to 1:16 before the footage rolls on. Then by 1:17 seconds, he has gone from 44% to 45% to 48% to 50% IN ONE SECOND. This is a 6% health gain in ONE SECOND. At 209 per 1% that is actually 1254 in ONE SECOND passive regen. You can clearly see at this point in the video, that even if he were dodge rolling and had nayos on, HE HAS NO CONDIS TO CLEANSE TO BENEFIT THE HEALS FROM THOSE EFFECTS. He just straight passively heals 1254 health in 1 second. This is actually a stronger representation of over-healing than even my original calculation used for the video. The math adds up, go do it yourself. Please explain to me how he is healing 1254 health in one second, with no condis to cleanse with EP and no condis to cleanse in general for nayos, and with no pet F2 procs to trigger Invigorating Bond. Which if he had triggered IB, the heal would have been much larger than what it shows. What you're seeing there is sheer raw passive regen from Rugged Growth and Regen alone.

Look boys, no matter how you look at this, it doesn't add up.

1 hour ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Yeah or Relic of Nayos that does the same.

Read the previous comment. It's clearly not Nayos.

49 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

the end of where trever stopped with 50% hp is the beginning of another dodge. thats why i figured the trait was in play.

He doesn't have condis on his bar to cleanse dude. He is straight passively regenerating 1254 health in one second with Rugged Growth and Regen alone. You can SEE it in the video for yourself. Do the math.

Do you realize that this amount of health regeneration per second is actually higher than Troll Unguent the healing utility? I'm sitting here looking at Troll Unguent right now on my full ascended minstrel druid, and it says it heals 1216 per second. My full ascended minstrel heal druid support has twice the heal stat of his supposed exotic cele ranger. So somehow between his Rugged Growth and Regen alone, he is somehow magically healing per second higher than Troll Unguent on a full ascended minstrel druid support.

Dude, there is absolutely no way that is even remotely possible on an exotic cele build. If it were, he'd need to straight go full magi/cleric to pump up like a 1600 heal stat to even be able to begin to touch those kind of numbers. And if he were doing that, his build would be like a full Minstrel FB Support and have virtually zero damage output.

No matter how you look at this, none of it makes any sense. It quite literally "doesn't add up".

Edited July 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

57 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

but i was confused about the dwayna part, that rune give regen duration not intensity. the relic is for intensity 20% but then that would not apply to rugged growth but he calculated it over the 705 which did include rugged growth.

I actually did mess up on that. Dwayna does +30% duration, not +30% effectiveness. The duration increase wouldn't effect anything on either build so ignore that part.

57 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

well that is on any cleanse, but they did cleanse blind with a dodge and then the cripple shortly before it would have expired, the end of where trever stopped with 50% hp is the beginning of another dodge. thats why i figured the trait was in play.

The cripple expires. He does not use a dodge roll or a cleanse to get rid of it. He only dodges once and it cleanses the blind. Then he proceeds to walk around with everything he has on CD, passively regenerating 1254 health in one second.

Go watch it again, do the math for yourself.

Edited July 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524