Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?

[bq pd.2148]

37 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Spoiler

He definitely has evasive purity. So let's consider what you're saying here.

Go to the footage starting at 11:40. He dodge rolls once at 41% health and goes to 44%. This is 3% gain when his health ticks at 1% are worth 209. This would be a +627 heal from evasive purity. I'm standing in game right now looking at evasive purity on my full ascended minstrel druid support that has double his heal stat, and with a 1300 heal stat, it only heals 480 on a cleanse on dodge. That doesn't make sense.

Furthermore, the time it takes for that to happen, you can see the timer in Filmora has gone from 1:15 to 1:16 before the footage rolls on. Then by 1:17 seconds, he has gone from 44% to 45% to 48% to 50% IN ONE SECOND. This is a 6% health gain in ONE SECOND. At 209 per 1% that is actually 1254 in ONE SECOND passive regen. You can clearly see at this point in the video, that even if he were dodge rolling and had nayos on, HE HAS NO CONDIS TO CLEANSE TO BENEFIT THE HEALS FROM THOSE EFFECTS. He just straight passively heals 1254 health in 1 second. This is actually a stronger representation of over-healing than even my original calculation used for the video. The math adds up, go do it yourself. Please explain to me how he is healing 1254 health in one second, with no condis to cleanse with EP and no condis to cleanse in general for nayos, and with no pet F2 procs to trigger Invigorating Bond. Which if he had triggered IB, the heal would have been much larger than what it shows. What you're seeing there is sheer raw passive regen from Rugged Growth and Regen alone.

Look boys, no matter how you look at this, it doesn't add up.

He doesn't have condis on his bar to cleanse dude. He is straight passively regenerating 1254 health in one second with Rugged Growth and Regen alone. You can SEE it in the video for yourself. Do the math.

Do you realize that this amount of health regeneration per second is actually higher than Troll Unguent the healing utility? I'm sitting here looking at Troll Unguent right now on my full ascended minstrel druid, and it says it heals 1216 per second. My full ascended minstrel heal druid support has twice the heal stat of his supposed exotic cele ranger. So somehow between his Rugged Growth and Regen alone, he is somehow magically healing per second higher than Troll Unguent on a full ascended minstrel druid support.

Dude, there is absolutely no way that is even remotely possible on an exotic cele build. If it were, he'd need to straight go full magi/cleric to pump up like a 1600 heal stat to even be able to begin to touch those kind of numbers. And if he were doing that, his build would be like a full Minstrel FB Support and have virtually zero damage output.

No matter how you look at this, none of it makes any sense. It quite literally "doesn't add up".

 

alright i just logged on my ranger and changed the stats to full cele, leadership runes (cele stats + boon duration), no infusions and only half the traits selected that might matter. i still have some birthday cake running for +40 healing power, for healing numbers i have in my tooltips:

• rugged growth: 284
• evasive purity: 429
• regen is a bit complex because the durations are rounded to .25 seconds but comparing 3 traits options for regen and dividing tooltips by duration i get 259-262

(i dont think the HP % are always accurately in realtime given that the server does not tell you their healing procs but only HP updates at some interval, that is why healing extension for arc needs to share stats over some server. )

so if we assume 2 seconds, that is 2x rugged growth + 2x regen(going with 259) = 1086

+ 2x evasive purity. this trait cleanses at the start of the evade, look at the character model he is already in dodge frames when cripple is still on him.  = 858
edit: at 12:27, yes it is pretty close but i think it still cleansed there. at least it would certainly not be enough for me to scrutinize them for it.

for a total of 1944, which is pretty close to the heal number you are seeing based on the 9%  20.9k health assumption and factoring in that i did have a cake + higher than exotic stats.

Edited July 9 by bq pd.2148

[Scolix.4879]

To me what is way WAY more problematic and unfun in WvW compared to celestial gear is boon blobs and the fact that the game has way too much CC for my liking.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

+ 2x evasive purity. this trait cleanses at the start of the evade, look at the character model he is already in dodge frames when cripple is still on him.  = 858

Yes, he cleanses 1 condi, the blind. But this shows an instant 3% increase in his health. You can see in the filmora time stamps that this occurs in a fraction of like .10 seconds. The number that you're trying to look at here is not reflective of a full 1 second rugged growth + regen. What you see there in the 3% increase is an immediate heal from EP.

He does not DODGE ROLL again to cleanse the cripple, and EP only cleanses 1 condi per dodge roll. The cripple expires, you can SEE IT in the video. Here is how you can prove that it expires and is not cleansed:

1. All of his cleanse utilities are tied to either dodge roll, or wilderness survival skills. He does not dodge at the last millisecond to cleanse that cripple. You can see this. And he doesn't use any wilderness survival skill to cleanse it either, otherwise you would see his boons refresh with new timers, which doesn't happen. The wilderness skills would refresh his fury or quickness or vigor with a new duration if he had cleansed in this way, which doesn't happen.
2. He has no other sources of trait tied or utility cleanses. He is running skirm/wild/nature. That's all he gets in terms of traits & utilities. The only other cleanse he could have is sig renewal, which he is not using.
3. His pet is on me the entire time, he isn't pet swapping for a cleanse trait. The pet doesn't howl, it's not using an F2 heal.
4. He doesn't weapon swap for a cleanse sigil effect. He's holding sword/torch through the entire clip. It's not a generosity sigil because not once in any of this footage does he throw any condi back at me. It's possible that he has purity sigil on, but even with that it has to hit with a flanking strike to work for only a 1 cleanse. Why anyone would choose that option before cleansing or generosity is beyond me, especially when the player is clearly a min/maxer, and especially if he were using nayos, which he's not. 
5. It's not nayos. The cripple expires. He is straight regenerating 1254 health in 1 second with RG and Regen alone. You can watch other parts of this footage and see these consistent number ticks for passive regeneration, when he doesn't have condis to cleanse for any nayos effect, and when he is CC'd to the floor and unable to dodge. Look at my burst on him. He is consistently up-ticking 3%+ heals even when taking enormous damage to dwindle the server updates on those heal gains. For the large majority of that burst, go watch it again, he doesn't even have condis on him to cleanse for any EP or nayos effect.

Aside from all this, let's consider that you're somehow right, and that somehow he is triggering EP an Nayos effects. Even if this were the case, then we're still in the debate of: "How is he tagging the heal stat attribute level to even begin to tag numbers like this, while maintaining large damage output with only light might stacking?" Again, to even be able to tag passive sustain numbers like this through RG/Regen or even with EP and Nayos, you'd need to be looking at around 1500/1600 heal stat. This would require a complete sacrifice of any DPS tied attributes, resulting in some wet noodle damage like a Minstrel FB. But as you can see, he has extreme damage values as exampled in the video, even vs. a Guardian build that has 100% resolution uptime. His build, with light might stacks, is dealing damage that is so heavy with small condi stacks and axe 1 autos, that it's comparable to a cele Harb coming at me applying 13 condis with good power damage to boot. That doesn't make sense. And to have that level of DPS output while also somehow fronting heal factors beyond a full ascended minstrel support druid, does not make sense.

Alright so instead of debating over the video and how people are trying to see things, how about this. You go into the game and make a full exotic celestial core ranger, using skirm/wild/nature, with wolf and drake hound, wielding sword/torch and axe/dagger, WHILE NOT USING FOOD OR UTILITY BUFFS mind you, and go roam with that for awhile. Come back and tell us if it feels like you have anywhere near the level of DPS output as what is shown in that video, or anywhere near the level of sustain that is shown in that video. Go use Nayos or w/e it is you want to try. Just do it and come back here and tell us how it goes.

Also one last thing that for some reason no one has brought up yet, is that part where he crosses the Test Of Faith and takes no damage. He isn't using an invuln or evading over it or dodging, and he hadn't been hit by it recently to be within the .75s limitation marker either. He sat inside of it for like 3 seconds and then crosses it and takes no damage. Go to 29:00 in the video and watch that part about how he doesn't take damage from the Test Of Faith. Because that right there does not make sense, and it should have downed him, and I should have been in here posting a video of a Berserker DH oneshotting a Cele Ranger, but for some very strange mysterious reason, he just doesn't take damage from crossing the Test Of Faith. I'd like to hear people's explanation on that one.

Edited July 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Zyreva.1078]

12 hours ago, Mystiz.8795 said:

Har I'm not surprised. If you don't mind me asking, my druid currently is struggling the most against cele harbis, and good axe thieves/deadeyes, do you have similar issues? How do you deal with these? 

Bit off topic and it's also difficult to give advice without knowing the exact builds and struggles, so i'm keeping this short:

Against cele harb i'm usually doing fine (in a 1vs1), but i do think harb should have the advantage, because it used to be a pretty even match and since then harb has been buffed and druid nerfed. I tend to start those fights slow and just poke them from range, hoping to bait out cds without investing too much from my side - and most burn through their stuff quickly. When they use their elite, try to stealth or kite/LOS - do not try to fight into it. Once their elite and hopefully also some stunbreaks are on cd, locking them down with entangle and chain cc usually enables the kill.

DE is tricky and i did lose a 1vs1 against one recently. I think if it's open field DE should win eventually if played perfectly. However most don't and are very much beatable. Key is to pressure them as much as possible, like casting CA 2+3 on them instead of yourself, because forcing them to use initiative defensively will increase your chance to survive more than trying to outheal while they are freecasting on you. And if you manage to force Shadow Step and then catch them with immob while low on initiative, they can die very quickly. Using terrain to your advantage can also help (LOS/no port spots).

Vs axe thief i can't give any specific advice, because i still haven't fought many, and those few i did fight were not that scary and either died fairly quickly or ended up stalemating by spamming stealth. But i guess what applies to DE and pretty much any thief applies here too - playing agressive and forcing them to play defensive is key to survival (aside from avoiding axe 3 burst) - and if they live or die just depends on whether they mess up or not.

Regarding "If i can't beat it, it has to be hacking":

I didn't intend to upload those fights, but to spare everyone the guesswork and wild assumptions, i can provide my POV, which should clear everything up.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I didn't intend to upload those fights, but to spare everyone the guesswork and wild assumptions, i can provide my POV, which should clear everything up.

Can't wait to hear the explanation on no damage while walking over test of faith.

[schloumou.3982]

10 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Alright so instead of debating over the video and how people are trying to see things, how about this. You go into the game and make a full exotic celestial core ranger, using skirm/wild/nature, with wolf and drake hound, wielding sword/torch and axe/dagger, WHILE NOT USING FOOD OR UTILITY BUFFS mind you, and go roam with that for awhile. Come back and tell us if it feels like you have anywhere near the level of DPS output as what is shown in that video, or anywhere near the level of sustain that is shown in that video. Go use Nayos or w/e it is you want to try. Just do it and come back here and tell us how it goes.

The complains about cele do not come from some dudes on their oneshot cheese builds frustrated that they can't make montages against PvE players anymore. We all played cele builds  ourselfs until we got bored and know what they can do. I can 100 to 0 squishy builds on my full cele cata with 12 stacks might in one knock down without any problem.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

The complains about cele do not come from some dudes on their oneshot cheese builds frustrated that they can't make montages against PvE players anymore. We all played cele builds  ourselfs until we got bored and know what they can do. I can 100 to 0 squishy builds on my full cele cata with 12 stacks might in one knock down without any problem.

Yeah but that's a catalyst that stacks apm all at the same time with complex combos so that things bomb all at the same time.

He is just spamming axe 1,2,3 at me, with like 5-6 might stacks the majority of the time.

Edited July 10 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[coro.3176]

That Test of Faith not hitting looks more like the game system dropping the ball on registering the hit (probably due to the 0.75s lockout triggering for some reason - pet? clipped the edge earlier? target cap?).

The overall regen per second is high, but honestly par for the course for most sustain-y duelling builds, I'd say. Have you seen what some Necro builds are capable of with the life force generation, or warriors with their traits.  Even on engi, I could put together a troll build that has perma-prot and regens near 1k/s. (thinking, signet + backpack regenerator + dwayna regen + big boomer, or else all the alchemy stuff)

Either way, props to @Trevor Boyer.6524 for the in-depth vid. I wish we had more like that for these threads trying to break down exactly which pieces of the build are overtuned.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

16 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

That Test of Faith not hitting looks more like the game system dropping the ball on registering the hit (probably due to the 0.75s lockout triggering for some reason - pet? clipped the edge earlier? target cap?).

Well that's what I thought as well, "I guess it was a miracle hiccup" but upon further examination, that is quite the game bug if that was a bug. The way TOF works is, when a target gets hit, there is a window of .75s before it can get hit again by TOF. TOF also makes cripple when it hits things. You can see in the beginning of the burst, he gets pulled in and a cripple is applied to him from the TOF. Then when I drop the 2nd TOF, another crippled is applied. Then he proceeds to sit inside of both TOFs, for faaar longer than .75s without touching them. You can see this because no cripples get applied to him in this time frame of like 3+ seconds before he tries to leave the TOF. Then when he does, it just randomly doesn't effect him. Not only does he not take damage but he doesn't even crippled, as if the trap weren't there at all, or his character somehow bleeped out of server recognition for a moment. His pet was also dead and in invuln for well longer than .75s before he tried to cross, so if it was somehow a hiccup relating to pets counting as the same target as the ranger "which I know this isn't the case and have never once seen that happen before" but even if it was, it shouldn't have prevented the strike when he crossed.

I have no idea what happened there, because there isn't a limit on strikes dealt by TOF beyond the .75s window. There are times in pvp which happens rather often when running DH, that you can pull them in they get hit, shield 5 knock them out and they get hit again, and someone else CCs them back in or they are forced to cross it again and they get hit again. You'll see 3+ strikes occur on a target in a very short window of time from a single TOF. But for some miraculous mysterious reason, he takes the initial TOF strike on the pull, gets hit by the 2nd TOF initial detonation, and then for w/e reason it is, just doesn't get hit by it at all when crossing over it at 5% health.

I mean, alright. I just find that to be quite the miraculous well timed game bug to happen at that exact moment when it mattered.

Edited July 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

21 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

The overall regen per second is high, but honestly par for the course for most sustain-y duelling builds, I'd say. Have you seen what some Necro builds are capable of with the life force generation, or warriors with their traits.  Even on engi, I could put together a troll build that has perma-prot and regens near 1k/s. (thinking, signet + backpack regenerator + dwayna regen + big boomer, or else all the alchemy stuff)

Yeah I see what you mean, but now we are talking classes with massively compounded effects stacking together.

He is just on a core ranger with only rugged growth and regen ticking for that massive healing.

Guy isn't even using food/utility buffs man.

Edited July 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Zyreva.1078]

I can't be bothered to "disect" this and only pick those parts Trevor did, so there's the whole thing (minus the parts without combat, otherwise it would have been over half an hour long).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me5r5huU7jM

If there are any questions about a specific part - just ask.

Regarding ToF not dealing dmg - it looks like this on my screen too. My guess is that it is a visual bug, where the animation lasts longer than the actual skill, since it's 7s from the trap being placed (ingame timer just ticked to 1:15) to the moment i walk out of it (timer 1:08) - and the skill is supposed to last 6s, right?

(Edit: There is a similar situation at 4:39 where my pets walks through a still visible ToF without taking dmg - again with 7s between ToF triggering initially and my pet walking out of it.)

Ping related maybe? Mine wasn't terrible on NA (~130 when i checked), but still much worse than on EU (~ 30-40 usually). There is also some desyncing happening in this video as well as the other one - in bothTrevor appears to be teleporting on my screen at some point. And no, i'm not claiming Trevor is teleport hacking, but it should be clear that the game is not running 100% smoothly at all times.

Edited July 9 by Zyreva.1078

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 6/19/2024 at 7:40 PM, RedShark.9548 said:

if most people choose celestial as their best option for winning fights, resulting in it being the most picked  stat combination, then its unbalanced compared to other stat combinations. 
what about that do you not understand? if something is used unproportionally more than other things, you have to take a look at it and wonder why its taken so much. 

Nonsense. It's a lowest-common-denominator stat, nothing more and nothing less. As for "balance," you keep using that word and I do not think it means what you think it means.

Balance is defined as "a state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces," "stability produced by even distribution of weight on each side of the vertical axis," or "equipoise between contrasting, opposing, or interacting elements." Look it up yourself if you don't believe it. Celestial stats all being equal fits those definitions 100%.

But hey, if you want to run a mixture of Bringer and Rabid and pretend it's viable, well you do you.

[Nefras.7314]

We should retitle this thread to: man slowly realizes how op cele really is

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

7 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Regarding "If i can't beat it, it has to be hacking":

I've been playing GW2 for 12 years and I'm good at spotting things that don't make sense. I'm actually right about everything I noticed in my video and you're about to see why in your own footage. Although I was correct in spotting that your passive sustain was a lot higher than normal, I was limited to my own perspective in figuring out why that was. The only thing I was able to figure out, was that par for par, you were healing a lot more over the course of several seconds than you should be. I was trying to figure out why/how, but your video very clearly will show how it is happening. Unfortunately, we'll probably never know why. And maybe you yourself didn't notice this and had no idea it was happening, but it is happening.

First thing I noticed is that your Rugged Growth up-ticks are 295, which actually makes sense from a cele stat 600-620ish heal stat standpoint. Then I notice the Regen up-ticks are 278, which also makes sense from a cele stat 600-620ish standpoint. And I'm thinking "How can this be? It looks like from his screen that everything actually adds up and makes sense. Why from my screen, is it showing unusually high heal gains over the course of several seconds? On his screen these green numbers look normal. Was I somehow critically inaccurate in my equations to figure this out?" But then while reviewing the footage, I noticed there were times when it seemed like the green numbers were popping too fast in succession. It looked like you were sometimes benefitting double heal factor from both Rugged Growth and Regeneration. When I went back in slow motion to very accurately record the heal up-ticks and the second intervals in which they occur, I was right. Here is what happens beginning in your video at 4s, going to about 20s when the burst is over:

• 4s - 295 RG then the prot expires and you don't dodge roll or use any utilities to get it back until 8s
• 8s - 295 RG
• 9s - 295 RG
• 10s - IB 1825, regeneration kicks on, there is a 295 RG tick, and then before the 10s is up, it ticks another 295 RG and the Regen ticks for 278
• 11s - 295 RG, 278 R
• 12s - 295 RG, 278 R - and then it does it again before the 12s ends, another 295 RG and a 278 R
• 13s - 295 RG, 278 R
• 14s - the prot turns off for a moment and it only ticks a 278 R
• 15s - 295 RG, 278 R - and then before the 15s is up, it does it again for 295 RG an 278 R
• 16s - 295 RG, 278 R
• 17s - 295 RG, 278 R
• 18s - 295 RG, 278 R and then it again double ticks in the same second for another 295 RG and 278 R
• 19s - 295 RG, 278 R
• 20s - 295 RG, 278 R

Don't believe it? Go watch back through it yourself. That is actually happening, and it perfectly explains the calculations from my point of view, utilizing your health bar % gains & drops to attempt to calculate estimated passive heal factor. From your point of view, you're seeing green numbers popping up where the integers look normal. But what I'm sure you probably never looked closely enough to notice, is that w/e is going on here, you are very often somehow doubling up on heal up-ticks per second.

It's important to note that these are not "spill over numbers" such as a condi applications with an odd duration like 10 and 1/4s. If that condi were dealing 100 damage per second, it would show 100 damage each second for 10 seconds, and then right at the end it would pop the final damage for the spill over 1/4th second right at the beginning of the 11th second, for 25 damage. This is not what's happening here with these RG and R heal ticks. The server is straight throwing extra full heal ticks at you at their full values about every 2 to 3 seconds. 

Why is that happening? Absolutely no idea. I've never seen anything like this before. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that you were not aware that it was happening, but it was happening. You can't blame me for noticing it and posting a video to try and figure it out. Maybe it's a bug, maybe it's some kind issue with EU players connected to NA, I have no idea, but Arenanet should probably look into this one because that is actually happening and you can plainly see it your video. Whatever is going on here, it's busted. That's a lot unintended extra sustain.

The second thing I notice is your DPS meter when I burst you in the opening footage. I noticed that it isn't tracing damage done to dogs, so keep this in mind. By the end of that burst, here is what I'm seeing on your own DPS meter, from just that burst, not the longbow attacks before it:

1. Procession Of Blades - 18.3k
2. Whirling Wrath - 8199
3. Symbol Of Resolution - 6282
4. Test Of Faith - 6858

This is straight up 39,639 damage done to you during that burst, that the DPS meter is reading. You got pulled into that at 75% health. I noticed your actual max health is 22,992. You were pulled into that burst at exactly 75% health. This means you had around 17,244 health when entering that burst. You were glued to the floor with CCs and didn't use a utility heal. You somehow survived the 39,639 damage burst that the DPS meter is reading, while laying on the ground with 17,244 health and your passive RG and R only. Even with the solid 295 RG ticks and 278 R ticks and even considering the points when they double heal, how in the hell did you live through that? If you add up my very accurate recordings of those heal ticks and their double casts, which your video shows, and the burst begins at 15s, it adds up to only 6,303. The health you went into that burst at would be 17,244 + that 6,303 = 23,547. But your DPS meter "which isn't counting DPS dealt to dogs" is saying I dealt enough damage to you not only to have easily downed you at least once, but that actually dealt enough damage to nearly be able to kill you twice over.

This is what I'm talking about, there are a lot of things going on here that don't make sense, that literally "don't add up". And I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that you didn't set anything up and that you weren't aware of any of what happened here, but it did happen, and your own video shows it all. Thanks for posting by the way.

As far as not getting hit by Test Of Faith, I have no idea. I've never seen that problem happen before and I've mained DH in times past and obviously fight them quite often. I've never seen an animation delay that would linger than long like that, and I don't see people walking in and out of TOF without getting hit. But apparently that's what happened here. Just another strange thing that didn't make sense with this duel/demonstration.

The point being is that there is a lot of strange stuff going on from your end on that core ranger. Again, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that you don't know why and didn't plan any of it, but it did happen. You should have died in that burst if it weren't for the miraculous double heal up-ticks and the mysterious blackhole that is apparently absorbing all of my damage that your own DPS meter is saying that I'm dealing to you, as well as right there at the end when you just walk across a Test Of Faith and take no damage from it.

But I'm done with this after this post. There is nothing more to say or show in a record. Your own side of the recording shows a bunch of weird stuff going on that doesn't add up. I have no idea why or how it's happening, but it is. Maybe it's EU to NA server problems, I don't know. But let's move past this and enough of the sh!tposting, because I was right to notice there was a bunch of stuff going on here that didn't make sense.

The ultimate point here, for anyone who is actually following this ridiculous debacle, is that you can't use any of this footage as any accurate gauge of "Cele vs. Power" for the purpose of this thread discussion. Too much funny business going on here.

 

Edited July 10 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

15 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

This discussion veered sharply away from "cele vs power" and into "let's make trev look bad". They're just looking for reasons to dump on people...

You've always been a very logic based numbers kind of guy. You should be able to appreciate this...

Ya I appreciate the effort for sure. I agree that the thread veered off in a non-sensible direction, so what I'm gonna do is just add my 2 cents about this topic, from someone that does formal mathematical logic:

From the onset, the statement in the OP of this thread, and similiar threads like this are not provable, because one can always come up with cases in n (n means an arbitrary number of cases. In formal mathematics, this is a set, where n is the set of all numbers) that show the statement is false. Proofs by Induction, are proofs that actually show the statement applies for all cases in n (an infinite number of cases), which is why its a formal proof. In induction, proving a base case, then showing the statement holds in the induction step, means you can recursively apply the logic for each subsequent step.

Most arguments do not even have a base case, like in this thread, because the definition of terms is vague. For example, there's no definition of what "balanced" even means. One can still get to a base case, by at least defining the vague terms (And this is the first rung on the ladder, to having a formal argument). So cool, if someone can come up with a base case, then someone can now in practice, apply induction steps to see if that case holds, which normally it can't even get past a first induction step.

For example the question : "Why does God have a beard?" is not a formal argument, because of the vague-ness of its terms. What is the definition of "god" and what is the definition of a beard. Once one defines those things, then you can at least have a base case. Obviously, things like "god" can't be defined without its definition also being vague...is god a cat? is god an amorphous sludge? Is God an infinite grid of points? Its a doomed argument in the realm of mathematical logic. 

There are other forms of proof...Proof by Construction, a proof that one can create an object from the axioms of the logic, or a Proof by Exhaustion, which is brute force checking each case (like an extended form of induction except without making assumptions, so its an even stronger form of inductive proof). True Proofs of exhaustion can not be done, they can only be meaningfully approximated.

So why am I droning on about proofs...the point is that this thread does not even have a foundation to stand on, and shouldn't be taken seriously until it's vague terms are actually formally defined. Once those terms are formally defined, one can then formally prove or disprove whether the argument is true or false. Already did this specifically for balance, proving by induction, that for any game that uses numbers, balance operations either make the games elements homogenous, or will fail to prove equivalence relations between it's unique elements, therefor making all balance operations completely arbitrary...thus threads like this are closed in the logic book. Non-trivial games defined by numbers will never have a truly objective parametrization. That's one reason I think this thread even went on as long as it did : one guy over here defines true balance as "having 1v1 duels", the other guy over there thinks true balance is "cause it was done over in PVP man" yada yada yada.

What you're going to hear from people is that Celestial stats have more total stats (~5112) than the others (4 stat : ~3610, 3 stat ~3302) and therefor this is what makes it OP. It sounds reasonable. but it obviously fails to account for force multiplication (force multiplication meaning, that one is augmented by the existence of other players in groups, or how traits interact with elements in the game non-trivially, such as diminishing returns, hard limits, or multiplicity and exponential relations).

Right like...imagine if I'm a game dev and i made two different announcements in two different parallel universes:

1) I'm going to buff everyone's precision by 30,000

2) i'm going to buff everyone's precision by 1,000,000

Anything above 2600 makes no difference. So would people consider announcement 2, to be more OP than announcement 1 just because it has more stats? No logical person, knowing about the hard limit behavior of critical chance would think so. This is yet another case in n that shuts down induction for the argument...and at that point its case closed...but for people who are really inclined, one can just extend the argument out and find that in order to "truly balance" the stat sets means making them all the same, where every stat has to do the same thing, scale in the same way...and all traits have to do the same stuff, because the uniqueness and nontriviality of the games elements, inevitably imposes this constraint when using mathematical logic. 

Edited July 10 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Great, this became a philosophy thread.

People come up with the most ridiculous kitten to disprove a point.

[schloumou.3982]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Great, this became a philosophy thread.

People come up with the most ridiculous kitten to disprove a point.

They don't debate because they seek knowledge. The distance they move the goal post of their cases to ignore the outcome will allways be amazing. You can easily see the bias in the way they set up the environment. If you belive in your thesis, you try to dismantle it, not search for cases to prove it. At this point we went from ''any highly mobile zerk build can compete with any cele build'' to ''a core ranger on exotic without any food or utility,  has to face a cherry picked supposed hard counter while on 130+ ping''  and when the results still went completely in the other direction the search for reasons to ignore it just goes on.

[Sahne.6950]

Trainingwheels.

The answer is trainingwheels

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Great, this became a philosophy thread.

People come up with the most ridiculous kitten to disprove a point.

mathematical logic isn't philosophy. It's the opposite : it's supposed to formalize things like philosophy. Mathematical logic is just a fancier way to say math.

As I said in the post : This thread will probably continue on until someone formalizes it (defining it's vague terms) in a way that is mathematical (and at the very least logical).

Quote

The distance they move the goal post of their cases to ignore the outcome will always be amazing.

Take this quote block for instance: There never was a goal to begin with. This topic started with "Celestial is unbalanced, please remove." There's no argument there until those vague terms are defined in a kind of formal way. As it stands it's like saying "Hey i hate the president he suk" and saying that statement is a meaningful statement to argue about.

You wouldn't think saying "fight me" to prove your right about the president suking is acceptable right... This analogy sums up the state of this thread.
 

Edited July 10 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Great, this became a philosophy thread.

People come up with the most ridiculous kitten to disprove a point.

He's being serious. If you reread through that and give it some thought, you'll see that he's right.

What he's talking about is the type of undefined off-based narrow arguments that we see in this forum, from people who aren't able to see the big picture and greater dynamic of how things work, who can't even define the difference between "when something is annoying" vs. "when something is overperforming".

A good example of this, would be people complaining about bunker builds in pvp. They fight something they can't kill on node in an isolated 1v1 and they very narrowly, with little to no thought past that one isolated instance, think "this is too OP" and then go to the forum to complain about it. Absolutely no thought past this.

This is a level of assward tunnel-vision complaint, similar to if someone had played hockey for the first time and noticed that hitting a puck past a goalie wasn't easy, so it must be OP. Doesn't matter if both teams have a goalie. They just don't like the idea that a guy is sitting in front of a goal blocking shots, so they want it removed from the game. Absolutely no thought past this.

This is sincerely the kind of attitude that 98% of forum users throw into these balance discussions. The ones here are crying about losing 1v1s to cele-duelist builds, while completely disregarding that winning isolated 1v1s is the only thing the cele-duelist builds are good at. They completely disregard the fact that the cele-duelist builds are generally slower than normal highly mobile roaming builds and get caught and die easily in 2v1 situations. They completely disregard that the cele-duelist contributes virtually nothing while zerging because it has only selfish sustain and usually always single strike skills. And most importantly, they disregard the very strong reality that even if celestial was removed from the game, the same duelist builds will show right back up on other stat combinations and do the exact same thing, run builds that win 1v1s.

These players don't possess the recognition or vision to see that what they are complaining about isn't even cele, but just duel builds in general. They cannot see that no matter what is nerfed/removed from the game, there will always be builds designed for 1v1s, that are going to dominant them at supply camp yolo roaming if they try to engage those duel builds with builds that are not duel builds. Then instead of bucking up and realizing "I should use a proper roaming duelist if I plan on yoloing supply camps", they'd rather stubbornly continue to use their zerg necro because in their mind they think "Well I shouldn't have to change what I'm doing. Everything should be balanced!" and then they come to the forum and complain. They do not have the recognition or vision to see that there is no problem beyond their own reluctance to accept that you shouldn't be roaming & dueling on a zerg build, and that you shouldn't be zerging on a duel build.

And then we get stuff like this:

2 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

They don't debate because they seek knowledge. The distance they move the goal post of their cases to ignore the outcome will allways be amazing. You can easily see the bias in the way they set up the environment. If you belive in your thesis, you try to dismantle it, not search for cases to prove it. At this point we went from ''any highly mobile zerk build can compete with any cele build'' to ''a core ranger on exotic without any food or utility,  has to face a cherry picked supposed hard counter while on 130+ ping''  and when the results still went completely in the other direction the search for reasons to ignore it just goes on.

In his bias to starkly support the idea that celestial is overpowered, he posts this, clearly aimed towards my statements.

But everything he said is tunnel-visioned logical fallacy, as he completely ignores any & all data presented in this discussion, He selectively acknowledges only certain things, mostly what he himself imagines, and ignores everything else.

Things to note:

1. No goal posts were ever moved. If any goal posts were attempted to be moved, it was when the guy tried to veer a constructive discussion about the representation of cele vs. other attributes, into a "let's sh!tpost trev" pride duel about who was a better player. It took me 3 days to debunk a nothing but fishy performance from a player who's own video footage displays a plethora of mathematical anomalies occurring, all of which greatly enhance his game performance. And we aren't talking tini-tiny numbers here. No, what is shown in that video footage, are these blackholes in the game's mathematical equations that in no way make sense. The point in debunking that, was to show that whatever happened there wasn't even remotely normal, and whether it was his fault or not, it can't be legitimately used as any compare/contrast for the discussion of cele vs. power. If you didn't follow up on the last post concerning that topic, you might want to. No one changed any goal posts. If anything, the goal posts were put back where they should be for this discussion.
2. No one is being biased except for the people who are selectively ignoring data that is placed before them. I mean look at this. when I prove with his own video footage, that he is benefitting strange double healing, is moving across attacks and not getting hit when he should be hit, and his own DPS meter reads me dealing 40k damage to him on a burst but somehow his character takes less than half that damage, you ignore it. Then you proceed with "trev lost to a cele build, cele is overpowered" while selectively choosing to ignore all blatant evidence that whatever happened there, wasn't right. <- What you're doing here is the definition & epitome of what it means to be biased.
3. If you believe in something you try to dismantle it rather than prove it? Hey guy, if you didn't notice, I'm the one going in-game and recording duels and elaborately breaking down & researching the mathematical functions of every action that occurs during a cele vs. power duel, multiple duels at this point. What have you contributed beyond ad hominems?
4. And I'm right about highly mobile serk builds being able to deal with cele builds. The meta listings on sites will show you this from the representation rates of serk/marauer/dragon/valk builds vs. cele builds that are in play. Then if you go in-game and actually roam around for awhile, it will confirm it. See, you're still trying to lean on the selective reasoning that "trev ran power and lost to a cele build" while attempting to completely ignore the data provided that something was seriously wrong with the attribute outputs & intakes coming off that core ranger.
5. You even imply that I am the one ignoring the results. That's hilarious. My guy, I'm the one taking 3 days to elaborately research the results. You are the one ignoring the data that shows w/e happened there, cannot be used for any legit analysis. You can keep avoiding this fact, but that isn't helping your argument.

Edited July 10 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

lots of words

Everyone and their mother runs celestial because is not only BiS, it allows you to dish a tremendous amount of damage for the tankiness it provides, it's also a safety net - allowing you to do as many mistakes as you want without any risk.
But it's easy, roll zerker/marauder and play wvw, engage in 1vX and see how you fare, next do the same with celestial and see how magically you become a good player.
 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

20 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Everyone and their mother runs celestial because is not only BiS, it allows you to dish a tremendous amount of damage for the tankiness it provides, it's also a safety net - allowing you to do as many mistakes as you want without any risk.
But it's easy, roll zerker/marauder and play wvw, engage in 1vX and see how you fare, next do the same with celestial and see how magically you become a good player.
 

These pesky core cele Eles destroying everything in their path.

[Auragen.4162]

11 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

These pesky core cele Eles destroying everything in their path.

Yes because core cele ele is the only build capable of using cele everyone knows that....

The mental gymnastics olympics right here

[schloumou.3982]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

And I'm right about highly mobile serk builds being able to deal with cele builds. The meta listings on sites will show you this from the representation rates of serk/marauer/dragon/valk builds vs. cele builds that are in play. Then if you go in-game and actually roam around for awhile, it will confirm it. See, you're still trying to lean on the selective reasoning that "trev ran power and lost to a cele build" while attempting to completely ignore the data provided that something was seriously wrong with the attribute outputs & intakes coming off that core ranger.

You are reading the data wrong.. They are meta builds because they fullfill the role of the typical roaming strategy best. Which is killing people that are allready in a disadvantage quickly and be able to disengage when facing problems. They can deal with a cele build via avoiding to fight it 1v1 and ganking it when outnumbered for sure.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

No goal posts were ever moved. If any goal posts were attempted to be moved, it was when the guy tried to veer a constructive discussion about the representation of cele vs. other attributes, into a "let's sh!tpost trev" pride duel about who was a better player

Dude it was you who was sh!tposting about the 1v1 stuff.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You're missing the point bud. The point is that I can oneshot your cele build in wvw with something like a Sic Em One Wolf Pack Soulbeast wearing berserker.

I mean where does the complaint turn to after you show up to a duel session and someone schools all your cele builds with some highly mobile berserker builds?

I think most of you here complaining about cele are seriously not understanding the skill ceiling that full DPS builds have

I can run any class you want against it, while wearing berserker.

That came all from you. And it turned out you couldn't. Not even the build you tailored to counter a cele ranger without stab worked. Because the one ToF did glich of cause. Not like you spammed 1v1 for an hour and consistently failed.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

What have you contributed beyond ad hominems?

Ok fair enough. Of cause neither me nor you can provide mathematical solutions to this discussion especially with our very limited data as players. All i can add is my personal experience of 10k hours of roaming/dueling and the consensus amoung players that i talk to who have in my opinion the same skill\exp or more to form an educated guess on that topic. I just don't know anyone that can beat a player on the same skill level on a good cele build while playing power. I did/do the same as you here over and over: roam, spam\watch duels on bersi/mix builds vs cele builds and the results are the same yours here. I can beat unaware or worse players than me on burst builds consistent until at one point i hit the brick wall. Then i switch to a cele build and destroy the same player. It would have been nice if you showcased something different like you promised and i'd happily change my mind but you didn't. You can allways fight me on my cele cata and show me what ive slept on if you like tho.

[Every day pon.5386]

WvW is the blend of PvE & SPvP.